Hellenic religion

[TrueMacedonian]

There are obviously some parables that are not to be taken seriously. Like the fact that some of the characters in the bible grew to be 900 years old. However there is one striking thing about the old and new testament and that is that God is absolutely punishing in the old testament as compared to the new testament where he loves all.

[Philosopher]

People living 900 years is not a parable at all. I would disagree.

There are many stories, in all cultures, of people living hundreds of years.

If you look closely in the Old Testament, you will notice that those who lived that long, aged very different than we do. They married and beget children when they were hundreds of years old, not 20 or 30. They aged very slowly, probably due to the fact that the earth's atmosphere, plant life, environment, etc was pristine. Later in Genesis, people began to live normal life spans.

The old testament God is the same as the new--Jesus, earthly name of Jehovah.

The Old Testament is meant to convey the seriousness of sin and the consequences of violating God's Law--the New evinces how we may become Saved. Again, the concept of atonement, types, shadows, of the old testament fulfilled in the new.

[fyrOM]

How very PC of you RTG but unless everyone is correct an all inclusive policy is opposite to the truth. What a position to have on a truth website. There are limits to what we know and those things that are beyond our knowledge can be put into the category of speculation or faith for those who believe. But there are some things that are within our knowledge and when someone tries to shove faith above knowledge down our collective throats I think the truth website should at least have a reflex gag reaction. A nutter is a nutter even if they are a Christian nutter.

Someone earlier asked Philosopher if he was from the USA. Why. Because it is common knowledge many Christian nuts are in the USA but the person asking the question was too polite to complete their thinking into words. He sounds like a nut. But what’s even funnier about nuts that are not challenged adequately it give those starting to evaporate their brains the green light to start mouthing off in agreeance with the nut or their own idiocies. Anyone who takes the bible literally is a nut. No ifs no buts. The scientific evidence is overwhelming and you gotta love their standard reply god put that evidence to test their faith. You’re a nut. To anyone who says the bible is literally the word of god needs reminding of the multitude of reformations that were held where church authorities ie men debated about what should be in the bible and what shouldn’t and how best it should be worded. Did they have a hotline to god when they were doing this. The principles of good and bad the bible tries to teach us is one thing and it can easily be compared to the same principles being taught in other religions but a literal belife is totally insane.

I thought I would drop my two cents worth as a counterweight to rebalance the truth website lest it keel over.

[Vangelovski]

There is a massive amount of evidence for the Bible being the Word of God, but here is a quick summary of some:

Our answer to this question of whether the Bible is the word of God will ultimately have an eternal impact on us. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, religious practice, and morals. If the Bible is the Word of God, then to dismiss it is to dismiss God Himself.

There are both internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things within the Bible that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1,500 years, by more than 40 authors who came from many walks of life, the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words which God moved men to record.

Another of the internal evidences that indicates the Bible is truly God’s Word is the prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, certain cities, and mankind. Other prophecies concern the coming of One who would be the Messiah, the Saviour of all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those by men such as Nostradamus, biblical prophecies are extremely detailed. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and His lineage, but also how He would die and that He would rise again. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible contains.

There are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events, its truthfulness and accuracy are subject to verification like any other historical document. Through both archaeological evidences and other writings, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact, all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best-documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim to be the very Word of God.

Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of its human authors. In studying the lives of these men, we find them to be honest and sincere. The fact that they were willing to die often excruciating deaths for what they believed testifies that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. Seeing the risen Christ had a tremendous impact on them. They went from hiding in fear to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.

A further external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very Word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern-day atheists and agnostics, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still today the most widely published book in the world.

Throughout time, sceptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archaeology has confirmed it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by pseudo-science, psychology, and political movements, yet it remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains; its veracity and impact on lives is unmistakable. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word and is supernaturally protected by Him. It should not surprise us that, no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.

www.gotquestions.org

If anyone has any concers about specific parts of the Bible, post them here and we can work through them.

[Risto the Great]

How very PC of you RTG but unless everyone is correct an all inclusive policy is opposite to the truth. What a position to have on a truth website. There are limits to what we know and those things that are beyond our knowledge can be put into the category of speculation or faith for those who believe. But there are some things that are within our knowledge and when someone tries to shove faith above knowledge down our collective throats I think the truth website should at least have a reflex gag reaction. A nutter is a nutter even if they are a Christian nutter.

Someone earlier asked Philosopher if he was from the USA. Why. Because it is common knowledge many Christian nuts are in the USA but the person asking the question was too polite to complete their thinking into words. He sounds like a nut. But what’s even funnier about nuts that are not challenged adequately it give those starting to evaporate their brains the green light to start mouthing off in agreeance with the nut or their own idiocies. Anyone who takes the bible literally is a nut. No ifs no buts. The scientific evidence is overwhelming and you gotta love their standard reply god put that evidence to test their faith. You’re a nut. To anyone who says the bible is literally the word of god needs reminding of the multitude of reformations that were held where church authorities ie men debated about what should be in the bible and what shouldn’t and how best it should be worded. Did they have a hotline to god when they were doing this. The principles of good and bad the bible tries to teach us is one thing and it can easily be compared to the same principles being taught in other religions but a literal belife is totally insane.

I thought I would drop my two cents worth as a counterweight to rebalance the truth website lest it keel over.

OM, I don't think the MTO will suffer if it takes any position in the quest for knowledge on matters of faith. Any suggestion otherwise is sheer wankery.

In my mind I concluded that one must make a leap of faith before he can embrace the many facets of the bible. This is my position. It does not mean that I view someone who has taken the leap with suspicion ... nor does it mean I regard them as a nutter.

In fact, if they are happier than me .... perhaps I should be jealous.

[julie]

Vangelovski - I would agree with everything you have stated in your post. To get back to Julie's criticism of The Jew and the Hindu and the Muslim, etc, will all go to hell because of one thing: they don't believe in Christ. One additional point I would like to make is that as the laity we need to resist the temptation to judge others even though what they believe is not consistent with our own. Any judgements need to be left to the Saviour alone - not the average parishoner.

Mr Brandy, the bolded text was Philosophers words, that was a quote from what he posted!
I did not criticize the Jews, Hindus or Muslims. I have tolerance of all people , every soul has the right to believe and have faith in what they want to believe in, without judgement
If you actually read what I have written in that post you may see that is in defence of their beliefs!

Vangelovski, thank you for your response, something that I have always grappled with is the Holy Trinity Christians believe that God has revealed Himself as one God in three Persons: God the Father, the Son of God (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.

I have understood that as Jesus Christ is one with God and is the Holy Spirit, I grapple with "God" , who made man and woman in his likeness.

Buddhists believe in Jesus Christ as being the saviour, and they do not condemn or place judgement on anyone

Philospoher, thank you for toning it down and allowing us to debate , with respect

Vangelovski, where does science come in here, and evolution?

[Risto the Great]

If anyone has any concers about specific parts of the Bible, post them here and we can work through them.

It certainly is as worthy a thread as any other.
How do you feel about the icons in the Orthodox church? Some Christians believe it is a sin to have them there. Let us go with images of Jesus in church in the first instance.

[fyrOM]

Ill say one thing about the bible at least parts of it that there is merit to it. One doest have to look very far for evidence to this. Right up at the beginning in the book of genesis the creation of the world in 7 days exactly matches the scientific evidence that we have found a few thousand years after the first bible was written albeit the 7 days stretches out to hundreds of millions of years the order of events is right. If we think that ancient people were not as intelligent as today then how did they know about the correct order of evolution. In some documentaries aliens have been suggested but I would not jump to any conclusions as there is not enough evidence one way or the other. One thing science cannot deny is that ancient people wrote down the correct order of evolution. Today’s nuts take the literal meaning of the 7 days and ignore the rest of the evidence.

[Vangelovski]

Ill say one thing about the bible at least parts of it that there is merit to it. One doest have to look very far for evidence to this. Right up at the beginning in the book of genesis the creation of the world in 7 days exactly matches the scientific evidence that we have found a few thousand years after the first bible was written albeit the 7 days stretches out to hundreds of millions of years the order of events is right. If we think that ancient people were not as intelligent as today then how did they know about the correct order of evolution. In some documentaries aliens have been suggested but I would not jump to any conclusions as there is not enough evidence one way or the other. One thing science cannot deny is that ancient people wrote down the correct order of evolution. Today’s nuts take the literal meaning of the 7 days and ignore the rest of the evidence.

Actually, the Biblical order of creation does not match the evolution theory. But that's a whole other discussion.

[fyrOM]

Gee your quick off the mark. Have you got some program telling you every time I log in.

[Vangelovski]

Maybe its something more supernatural

[julie]

Its the hotline , the ESP one
Vangelovski, I too am interested in the science/evolution vs one man one woman made by God.
Would love your thoughts on this

[Vangelovski]

Julie,

The Trinity is an extremely hard concept - if anyone ever tells you they understand it, they are probably not being completely honest. My local parish priest (Macedonian Orthodox) once gave an example.

He told of a man who tried to understand everything about God. One day, he was walking along the beach, deep in thought, when he came across a young boy. The boy was a digging hole in the sand. The man asked him what he was going to do with the hole. The boy answered that he wanted to fit the entire ocean into the small hole in the sand. The man laughed and walked off. As he did, he realised that that was exactly what he was trying to do with God. He wanted to take our unfathomable God and fit him into the human mind. Its not possible to know everything about God simply because He is so 'big'. The Good News is that we don't need to understand everything about God to be saved.

As for science, I simply see it as a methodological system of discovering God's creation. Evolution itself is a theory, which many geneticists are moving away from since mapping DNA. There's a heap of information out there that I will endevour to post here.

RtG,

What does Exodus 20:4 (second commandment) say?

[Jankovska]

I find it quite weird debating the Bible or any other 'holy' book in the 21st century but hey, why not a?
The old testament presents God as evil, why can't anyone see that? I mean the punishments that he has come up with are just pure evil.
Asking Abraham to sacrifice his son- no one should ever give themselves the right to ask that,not even GOD himself.
All the punishments he throw on Job to prove to Satan that Job is a believer? Is this guy for real I wonder? So God is sitting up there bored to his bones and than along comes Satan. So God starts the 'oooo look at me I am so great' blah blah and Satan is like' shut up' stop showing off. So God decides to pick his most brainwashed fool to PROVE to Satan that Jov will never ever give him up. So to win this twisted game God first kills Jov's animals, burns his home, kills his wife and all his children. Jov still is a true believer coz the guy is smoking some strong shit. So God to finish him off threw the wors illness upon Jov and he still didn't give him up. God almighty won his little twisted game and gave Jov a new house, new wife and new chidlren. Now I am not sure what I need to leanr from this? One child can not replace another, the pain for a lost child will always be great no matter how many children you have. Doesn't this story teach us that if God decides to play a little game we may have to bend over and take it? Is that right in your opinion? Someone will say God gave you life? Does that mean he can take it or play with it? If so it's wrong. Why give it if you are not going to respect it.
Than the potop. It rained for 40 days and nights whatever to clear the world of evil. But he killed EVERYONE. So the poor slave girl, or the poor camel or the poor birds, they all had to go. Well surely God knows everything, why allow this? Now you will probably argue he gave us free will, but no he hasn't. Coz if he wants he can take it away, that's not free will. So all these stories that are MANY are children stories, da gi isplasime so Baba Roga da se mirni.
New Testament- I do not deny the existence of Jesus Christ, I bet he did exist as Jesus was a very common name in those days. So were Mary, Joseph, etc. He was probably a very smart, educated men who spoke of freedom for everyone, he was a Jew and those were Roman times. He probably was a fantazer sto bi rekla ja po naski but people took it too seriously. People go to vidoviti luge, read books, anything that makes you go through the tought times. Some people drink, others smoke, take drugs. Others believe in God. It's all the same, people find a way to cope even tho noone of these are the right way. But than who are we to judge?
There is NO proof whatsoever that Jesus was a son of God, that CANNOT be proven, there is no proof that he fed the hungry and raised the dead. That is just stories from followers. Like you have Dan Brown nowdays and people can swear that he read their mind even tho it's a trick. Jesus didn't die for us, he was at the wrong place in the wrong time. He was someone who believed in freedom for the people and I give him respect for that but that is as far as it goes. No one has ever seen him, spoken to him therefore no one can provide any proof. Some crazy Luke or James or Mary and their stories are not proof, they are stories and that's it. It has been 2000 years, not a day or two and there has been no proof of Jesus being God. Solid proof.
The Church is evil and everyone should see that. It has been a cause for many suffering, it has been a cause for people not advancing in science etc because they were prosecuted all the time. It is anti women and has caused a lot of sufferings.
It's also so funny to see how the 'harsh but fair' God in the old testament becomes so nice in the new one. I mean we have many sins these days, way more before the potop, should we expect the end of the world? I guess God gave us life he can take it. But than why do we think parents who kill their chidlren are monsters? They gave them life right?
I am sorry I will try and dig out my beautiful books on religion, I actually pride myself in having all of the major ones at home (read them when I needed it a bit of humor). From Jehovah witnesses books to the Torah I have them all. I even have the Koran, delivered from Iran and I can tell you read one, read them all. Religion is dangerous, it;s not about free thinking, it's against development of the human mind, it's against belief in yourself, it's about control and the sooner it;s banned the better we will all be.

[julie]

vangelovski, thank you, it is one of those things I have always struggled with, and as I get older in my life experience, it becomes even more of a mystery to me

Jankovska, in many ways I agree with you.
Especially the controlling aspect of any church, show us your money and you will go to heaven, it is a form of manipulation and control.
A good example is Bishop petar with what he has done to the communities within Australia - give me the titles, or you will burn in hell, lol

I have strong faith, I do beleive Jesus Christ was an incredible beautiful and unique soul, one that did have healing powers. I struggle with the concept of the resurrection and lean more to he may have lapsed into a coma, when he was placed in the tomb , the coolness of the tomb, and the anointments and herbs and shroud resuscitated him on the 3rd day .

I also find the Virgin birth hard to comprehend.
And what about Jesus bloodline, and why do people state that he did not father a child. This did not make him any less of an incredible soul,

I also do pray, in good times for thanks and in the hard times, and it gives me comfort. Its not that I dont believe, I tend to look more toward the science based proven facts (my son will pee himself with laughter - we debate and argue religion on a frequesnt basis, he is a scientist, I am just a free thinker)