The Betrayal of Macedonia in Political Statistics

[Niko777]

I want to point out 2 items related to this discussion:

1. Nestoroi is the same as Nestorovi. (V) was lost in many western Macedonian dialects, meaning -oi suffix is actually -ovi (plural of -ov).

2. A 1914 Greek electoral census from the village of Buf, Lerinsko (which I already posted in other parts of this forum) revealed many families with last names ending in -ovski and -ski.

[Carlin]

Are you suggesting the -ski suffix was mostly applied to non-Macedonians? Or that the -ev and -ov suffixes weren't common in western Macedonia, which is where the -ski suffixes are more prominent today? How did the "system" fail to impose itself on certain Vlachs, Turks and Albanians who don't have the -ski suffix

Yes, the -ev and -ov suffixes were present in western Macedonia as well as the -ski suffix (which was apparently more common than say eastern Macedonia). Some Serbs or Bulgarians claim that the -ski suffix was "invented" and applied whole cloth in Macedonia after WWII. They are not aware and do not want to hear that the -ski suffix was very common and popular in certain area of western Macedonia long before WWII.

Anyway, from what I can tell you the -ski suffixes were applied to all, Macedonians included. If you're asking me for percentage breakdown, details, etc. I don't have that information nor have I claimed anything one way or another.

The reason why the "system" failed to impose itself on certain (most?) Turks and Albanians is because they openly and actively rejected it. As far as the Vlachs are concerned, it's a different story. Vlachs were Christians and intermarried with Macedonians a lot, and decided to accept the new names without fuss. Vlachs participated in Ilinden and were active in building the Macedonian nation and state. Many Vlachs nowadays (since the independence of Macedonia) are starting to use and change back to their traditional surnames. Most arguably choose/chose to leave their official -ski names unchanged to this day.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Probably because there was no need to apply the "system" across the board as the majority of the population was Macedonian, with different last name formulas (-ev, -ov).

Are you suggesting the -ski suffix was mostly applied to non-Macedonians? Or that the -ev and -ov suffixes weren't common in western Macedonia, which is where the -ski suffixes are more prominent today? How did the "system" fail to impose itself on certain Vlachs, Turks and Albanians who don't have the -ski suffix?

Egejci maybe?

No. Many people in eastern Macedonia (where the -ev and -ov suffixes prevail) aren't descended from people who came from further south.

The -ski suffix was widely common in western Macedonia so maybe that's why.

Both the -ski and the more common -ev and -ov suffixes were used in the past, at least formally. Go back earlier and neither were common. In many cases, people just used the name of their father or a family moniker based on a trade or something else as an informal surname (a practice still in use today). Perhaps formality wasn't really critical for a down-trodden and illiterate peasantry during the Ottoman period.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

If it was a system, why are there thousands of citizens (many of them Macedonians) that don't have a ski-ending in the republic?

Egejci maybe?

Okay, let me ask the question for a third time in a different way. Why wasn't the system applied to the whole country?

The -ski suffix was widely common in western Macedonia so maybe that's why.

[Carlin]

Okay, let me ask the question for a third time in a different way. Why wasn't the system applied to the whole country?

Probably because there was no need to apply the "system" across the board as the majority of the population was Macedonian, with different last name formulas (-ev, -ov).

[I have personally heard of a few cases (not a large sample size of course, and not scientific in any way) that name endings of Bulgarian sympathizers/Bulgarophiles were changed accordingly to -ski. A Macedonian I talked to last year implied that his family's last name was changed to -ski due to the "perceptions" that his family/forefathers were regarded as Bulgarians. I found it somewhat surprising that he opened up to me in this manner because I did/do not know him at all -- and I did not even ask him any personal or leading questions.]

[Soldier of Macedon]

I said that this impacted many Macedonians -- not all or most Macedonians.

Okay, let me ask the question for a third time in a different way. Why wasn't the system applied to the whole country?

[Carlin]

If it was a system, why are there thousands of citizens (many of them Macedonians) that don't have a ski-ending in the republic?

I said that this impacted many Macedonians -- not all or most Macedonians.

The following comes from E. Damianopoulos, who is a Macedonian.

URL:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=5RjGAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA121&dq=Damianopoulos+Macedonian+republic+system&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTt7fWq6biAhUkx1kKHViMD6gQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Soldier of Macedon]

It wasn't just the "Vlachs" who received new (sur)names. The "literary" Macedonian -ski ending was the system adopted in the Macedonian Republic from 1944, and it impacted many Macedonians as well.

If it was a system, why are there thousands of citizens (many of them Macedonians) that don't have a ski-ending in the republic?

There are a lot of Macedonians who have at least a Vlach grandfather or Vlach grandmother in their family line....

Perhaps, but most do not.

[Carlin]

Was there a formal edict or law which mandated that Vlachs had to "receive new names" from the state?

It wasn't just the "Vlachs" who received new (sur)names. The "literary" Macedonian -ski ending was the system adopted in the Macedonian Republic from 1944, and it impacted many Macedonians as well.

True. The Vlachs (those who weren't suckered in by the Greeks) were probably the only ethnic group that provided a notable level of support to the Macedonians in their quest for a free Macedonia. Those who sacrificed their lives for the cause deserve nothing less than respect. Macedonia honours its Vlach heroes. Too bad many of their descendants aren't as passionate about the idea of a sovereign Macedonia today.

There is some truth to that, but nearly all of the minorities claim their numbers were/are much higher and/or have decreased due to assimilation. If we were to take them all at face value, then actual Macedonians have been an ethnic minority in their own fatherland for quite some time. Meanwhile, most records from the 19th century clearly indicate that the cultural and linguistic ancestors of today's ethnic Macedonians were the majority in the territory of the Macedonian republic. Go figure.

I'm not sure what the "exact" number of Vlachs is in Macedonia. As I said, I actually believe that Vlachs as a separate community hardly exist nowadays due to widespread intermarriage and primarily identify as Macedonians. As a result of the intermarriage, most "Vlachs" nowadays are mixed, and vice versa. There are a lot of Macedonians who have at least a Vlach grandfather or Vlach grandmother in their family line, i.e. the late Ljubisha Georgievski, who was basically half-Vlach as he himself explains here (minute 2:05 to 3:05):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bau6PFnGzc

[Liberator of Makedonija]

True. The Vlachs (those who weren't suckered in by the Greeks) were probably the only ethnic group that provided a notable level of support to the Macedonians in their quest for a free Macedonia. Those who sacrificed their lives for the cause deserve nothing less than respect. Macedonia honours its Vlach heroes. Too bad many of their descendants aren't as passionate about the idea of a sovereign Macedonia today.

Duncan Perry confirms that beside Macedonians, VMRO's revolutionary ideals found their largest audience amongst the Vlachs.

[Soldier of Macedon]

.....the Vlachs received "new names" from the state after World War II, i.e. -ski, -ev endings).

Was there a formal edict or law which mandated that Vlachs had to "receive new names" from the state?

A lot of Vlachs have fought and died for Macedonia.

True. The Vlachs (those who weren't suckered in by the Greeks) were probably the only ethnic group that provided a notable level of support to the Macedonians in their quest for a free Macedonia. Those who sacrificed their lives for the cause deserve nothing less than respect. Macedonia honours its Vlach heroes. Too bad many of their descendants aren't as passionate about the idea of a sovereign Macedonia today.

Also, the number of people who have some/partial Vlach ancestry is much higher than observed in the census numbers (people simply declare themselves as Macedonians).

There is some truth to that, but nearly all of the minorities claim their numbers were/are much higher and/or have decreased due to assimilation. If we were to take them all at face value, then actual Macedonians have been an ethnic minority in their own fatherland for quite some time. Meanwhile, most records from the 19th century clearly indicate that the cultural and linguistic ancestors of today's ethnic Macedonians were the majority in the territory of the Macedonian republic. Go figure.

[VMRO]

LOL, you are putting the Vlachs in the same category as the Roma.

A lot of Vlachs have fought and died for Macedonia. The level of intermarriage between Macedonians and Armani ("Vlachs") is quite high, and the relations are pretty good. In effect, there are no differences betweent the two. I speak from personal experience. Many "Vlachs" today, as an "ethnic minority", no longer have 'traditional' names/surnames, few know the language - but have Macedonian names, are Macedonian Orthodox Christians, and speak only Macedonian (the Vlachs received "new names" from the state after World War II, i.e. -ski, -ev endings). They declare themselves as such in the census.

Random choice example: Gjoko Dineski

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VyDj0yGWOI

Also, the number of people who have some/partial Vlach ancestry is much higher than observed in the census numbers (people simply declare themselves as Macedonians).

For the record i respect Vlachs (the Vlachs who are loyal to Macedonia and not the Hellenized Vlachs) and Roma.

What estimate do you give with respect to the amount of Vlachs in the Republic of Macedonia?

I have always stated that it was wrong for the communists to give the Vlachs last names and/or modify them with ev, ov, ski additions to last names.

I'm sure you have heard about theories regarding the "Vlach Lobby", Yet to see evidence of a establishment like this exist and i believe it has something more to do with prominent politicians/Businessmen of Vlach origins and people making false links to them.

Eg: Hari Kostov, Jani Makriduli, Taki Fiti.

[Carlin]

Good research and analytics. As you said these minorities dont care about macedonia. Its a fairy tale that they love macedonia. Disappointing really, after macedonians gave so much rights and support to groups like cigans and vlach.

LOL, you are putting the Vlachs in the same category as the Roma.

A lot of Vlachs have fought and died for Macedonia. The level of intermarriage between Macedonians and Armani ("Vlachs") is quite high, and the relations are pretty good. In effect, there are no differences betweent the two. I speak from personal experience. Many "Vlachs" today, as an "ethnic minority", no longer have 'traditional' names/surnames, few know the language - but have Macedonian names, are Macedonian Orthodox Christians, and speak only Macedonian (the Vlachs received "new names" from the state after World War II, i.e. -ski, -ev endings). They declare themselves as such in the census.

Random choice example: Gjoko Dineski

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VyDj0yGWOI

Also, the number of people who have some/partial Vlach ancestry is much higher than observed in the census numbers (people simply declare themselves as Macedonians).

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Good research and analytics. As you said these minorities dont care about macedonia. Its a fairy tale that they love macedonia. Disappointing really, after macedonians gave so much rights and support to groups like cigans and vlach.

I dont understand modern macedonians. They try to hard to be seen as the nice guy or the progressive country in the balkans. So what mother THeresa is from Skopje, why celebrate and promote Esma Redžepova as some macedonian 'hero'? Promote macedonian folk instead. Fuck them, these guys never did anything for us in the past and certainly never helped in our moment of need.

God i wish macedonians where more like patriotic hungarians, poles or even serbs or bulgarians.

You realise the entire Macedonian nationalist ideology is based around the desire for a Macedonian state encompassing its entire geographic definition in which the ethnicity, language and religion of all its inhabitants are respected.

[Big Bad Sven]

Good research and analytics. As you said these minorities dont care about macedonia. Its a fairy tale that they love macedonia. Disappointing really, after macedonians gave so much rights and support to groups like cigans and vlach.

I dont understand modern macedonians. They try to hard to be seen as the nice guy or the progressive country in the balkans. So what mother THeresa is from Skopje, why celebrate and promote Esma Redžepova as some macedonian 'hero'? Promote macedonian folk instead. Fuck them, these guys never did anything for us in the past and certainly never helped in our moment of need.

God i wish macedonians where more like patriotic hungarians, poles or even serbs or bulgarians.