The savior no one is talking about

[Soldier of Macedon]

I can't see how or why we should try to get that support.....Macedonia is too far down the rabbit hole now to consider Russian help. If it fails the referendum, it might be useful to look at that powerplay again.

There aren't many powerful countries that are behind Macedonia when it comes to its sovereignty and name. I understand that in the absence of drastic measures within Macedonia the effect of Russian support would be limited, but they can still serve as a balancing effect so we don't get pushed around by the West.

It is speculative. What's not speculative, however, is that in 1999 Russia sent in its army into Kosovo as a symbolic gesture to come to the aid of Serbia, almost igniting a huge war; while in 2001, Russia did not send its troops into Macedonia, symbolically or otherwise.

The Russian military was in Priština to support Serbia's territorial integrity, not Serbia's attempt to invade another country. Unfortunately for them, their objective was thwarted when Bulgaria and Romania (both of whom would become members of NATO and the EU within a decade of the incident) closed their airspace and prevented Russia from sending supplies and reinforcements. So much for Orthodox solidarity. In any case, when the Macedonian conflict began 18 months later, NATO were already embedded in the region. Even if Russia wanted to make the same overt gesture as they did in Kosovo, they couldn't, unless they were prepared to go to war. Given the earlier rebuke, their own domestic politics and challenges in the Caucasus, it doesn't seem as though they had an appetite for further entanglement at the time. Besides, did Macedonia even ask Russia to send its army to Skopje?

If the terrorists were left to their own devices, it's likely the war would have been much more bloody; and while a Macedonian victory would have been very likely in the end, "crushed" is a stretch. Macedonian soldiers were brave; but the army was ill-equipped and Macedonian military strategy was disjointed, from what I've read.

If the military were left unimpeded, I believe they would've eventually eliminated the terrorist threat. Most of those remaining would've logically been hunted down, arrested and thrown in prison. I consider that being crushed. You may not. Earlier you suggested that a strong case can be made that the U.S. basically helped Macedonia by reining in the terrorists. Do you think that move was better for Macedonia rather than the U.S. not becoming involved at all?

As far as interference in sovereignty, I think Russia hasn't been successful as the US, but that interference is there.

Sure, except Russian interference hasn't lead to our capitulation when it comes to our name, flag and constitution. Our weakness and sole reliance on the West achieved that, all for some elusively abstract prospect of economic prosperity.

A stretch I think. If its between secular and 10's of thousands of murdered people, then I think it's not that complicated.

There is a government trying to restore order and a secular state. It is in need of some serious reforms and has applied heavy-handed tactics which haven't always been justified. Then there are several groups of so-called 'rebels', most of whom are terrorists or extremists. They have slaughtered people purely based on their religious or ethnic affiliation and are bent on establishing Islamist fiefdoms. There were other ways to seek change in the Syrian political system, but the U.S. government at the time, apparently brazen after their "successful" expedition in Libya (which is still a disaster till this day), just couldn't help themselves.

The only reason anyone wants to give Assad any wiggle room is because they want to see Russia win one of these proxy wars, at the expense of the USA......

A balance of power in the world is not necessarily a bad thing, but you're wrong on this. If the U.S. were invited by the government of a secular state to provide assistance against an insurgency dominated by Islamist extremists, it would be a cause worthy of support. Do you know of any such examples?

I don't think they have a say in the matter honestly. It was Macedonian propaganda that Macedonia was forced into the agreement by the west(USA), I don't believe that to be the case at all.

Macedonians are responsible for many of the problems in the republic today, but they didn't create all of them. They didn't create Greek chauvinism. They didn't create Albanian separatism. The West has indeed pressured Macedonia into signing many treacherous agreements. Of course, the people and politicians could've rejected them, but they didn't. And that is their fault. But to absolve the West from any blame is simply wrong. They have used threats and intimidation to get their way. And they've succeeded.

[Karposh]

There are many unproven claims in this article (like the "17" US instructors advising Albanian terrorists who came out on the buses). Read with caution/scrutiny. I just post this as an example of some of the unsubstantiated and ridiculous claims thrown out in 2001 that still persist. I don't believe the US acted correctly in Macedonia, but the Macedonian government and people are essentially responsible for the mess we find ourselves in.

https://www.antiwar.com/rep/chuss6.html#ref

I don't understand what you mean by this statement Vic. The article that you linked is from July, 2001. It may have been an unproven claim back in 2001 but it is a proven fact today in 2018 and in no way in dispute...Just ask the US State Department or the Democrat politician Glenn Nye. BTW, we now know there weren't “17” US instructors/fighters advising Albanian terrorists (if not pulling the trigger as well) but “26”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Nye

[vicsinad]

I don't understand what you mean by this statement Vic. The article that you linked is from July, 2001. It may have been an unproven claim back in 2001 but it is a proven fact today in 2018 and in no way in dispute...Just ask the US State Department or the Democrat politician Glenn Nye. BTW, we now know there weren't “17” US instructors/fighters advising Albanian terrorists (if not pulling the trigger as well) but “26”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Nye

You cite Wikipedia, but do you even bother to check the sources that Wiki used? Here, I did it for you:

Source 1:

http://www.gmfus.org/profiles/glenn-nye

Nye spent his early career as a member of the U.S. Foreign Service, where he served in missions overseas for the U.S. State Department and the U.S. Agency for International Development. During the civil war in Macedonia, he was awarded the State Department Superior Honor Award for negotiating the release of an American hostage held by insurgents.

Macedonians have spread this lie that he was awarded that honor for helping evacuate 26 instructors in Aracinovo. They use the above source as confirmation of that, when the above source says nothing about it but instead about negotiating release of Americans being held hostage by Albanians. So, what proven fact? But wait, I'm not done:

Link 2 is not accessible online.

Link 3 (Serbian newspaper) summarizes link 2 and says that that's what Nye said, but no link or other information is provided to verify the claim.

Link 4 is not accessible (dead link).

And now I'll present to you the most credible/detailed source yet presented on this forum on this issue with the details of what really happened and what Nye's involvement really was:

https://pilotonline.com/news/article_cafa435d-4c09-5455-8bd9-9c7713b88e2c.html

His first Foreign Service assignment was in Macedonia, where he said he experienced "the most significant event of my life."

It's a two-part story that Nye mentions often during the campaign and in TV ads. An account of it appears in some campaign literature under the headline: "The True Story of How Glenn Nye Saved 27 American Lives."

When armed Albanian rebels took over part of Macedonia in 2001, 26 people with American and Macedonian citizenship were stuck behind insurgent lines, according to nomination documents for the State Department Superior Honor Award, which he received.

Nye, working out of the U.S. Embassy in Skopje, Macedonia, contacted the mayor of an Albanian village by cell phone and convinced him to organize Americans to be evacuated during a two-day cease-fire. The evacuation was successful.

Nye acknowledged that, although the situation was deteriorating, Americans lives were not in immediate danger.

Around the same time, Nye also helped arrange the rescue of one American who'd been taken hostage. Again using local political contacts, Nye pressured insurgents to release the man. Two weeks later, they did.

So, there you have it: evil Americans negotiating the release of Macedonians and Americans. The nerve! By the way, a relative of mine (with both Macedonian/American citizenship) was released in a similar manner, thanks to American negotiators.

The claims surrounding Nye's actions have nothing to do with US military advisors in Aracinovo.

If you're going to bash the evil Americans with unsubstantiated wikipedia claims inserted in there only to be backed by discredited and wild Macedonian and Serbian media claims, don't. At least find something credible, clear and verifiable.

I implore Macedonians, especially on this forum, to do some more in depth research and critical research before just jumping the gun with what fits your preconceived notions of evil Americans trying to control and destroy Macedonia. If anything, then do it so we can work off of the facts so we can actually address the problems instead of chasing our tail.

[vicsinad]

The Russian military was in Priština to support Serbia's territorial integrity, not Serbia's attempt to invade another country. Unfortunately for them, their objective was thwarted when Bulgaria and Romania (both of whom would become members of NATO and the EU within a decade of the incident) closed their airspace and prevented Russia from sending supplies and reinforcements. So much for Orthodox solidarity. In any case, when the Macedonian conflict began 18 months later, NATO were already embedded in the region. Even if Russia wanted to make the same overt gesture as they did in Kosovo, they couldn't, unless they were prepared to go to war. Given the earlier rebuke, their own domestic politics and challenges in the Caucasus, it doesn't seem as though they had an appetite for further entanglement at the time. Besides, did Macedonia even ask Russia to send its army to Skopje?

Russia was prepared to go to war over Kosovo but not Macedonia. I don't know if Macedonia ever asked Russia to send its army. I doubt it. Macedonia's official policy has generally been NATO-oriented.

Earlier you suggested that a strong case can be made that the U.S. basically helped Macedonia by reining in the terrorists. Do you think that move was better for Macedonia rather than the U.S. not becoming involved at all?

Yes, the US helped Macedonia by reining in the terrorists and hurt Macedonia by a) creating the conditions for them to get as far as they did and b) not coming out strongly against them. US probably felt it had not choice but to get involved, and it often fumbled that involvement; and to be sure, the Macedonian government did indeed ask (and in some cases pleaded) with the US and European countries to be even more involved. Of course, Macedonians didn't like how the US got involved.

Sure, except Russian interference hasn't lead to our capitulation when it comes to our name, flag and constitution. Our weakness and sole reliance on the West achieved that, all for some elusively abstract prospect of economic prosperity.

That's true, which is why I agree that Macedonia should learn how to balance the West with the East (and play off of them). However, I don't think Macedonia's leaders are politically savvy enough to do that.

[Karposh]

You cite Wikipedia, but do you even bother to check the sources that Wiki used? Here, I did it for you:
...If you're going to bash the evil Americans with unsubstantiated wikipedia claims inserted in there only to be backed by discredited and wild Macedonian and Serbian media claims, don't. At least find something credible, clear and verifiable.

What?! Are you suggesting Wikipedia is not a credible source?

In all seriousness though, if Nye was awarded the honour for rescuing Macedonian Americans instead of US military instructors why wouldn't the article have been updated to say that by now. The wiki entry on this guy hasn't changed since Dragan of Shtip first alerted us to him on this forum a while ago now. I don't doubt what you are saying, that Macedonians have vandalised the article to put in their version of the Aracinovo narrative but it's not just this example that causes people like myself to question US foreign policy intentions.There is also the other well known story from this conflict regarding the dropping of supplies to the Albanians of Shipkovica by Chinook helicopters from the American base in Kosovo. The story is confirmed by Canadian war correspondent Scott Taylor. When confronted about this, the US at first denied everything and when given photographic evidence, they explained it was humanitarian supplies such as food. Scott Taylor was embeded with the terrorists and asked them about this. They laughed and told him it was the middle of summer and did anyone really believe they needed food drops to survive. The book is called Diary of Un-Civil War and I have it. And I think we can both agree here that Scott Taylor is a much more credible source than Wikipedia.

[vicsinad]

In all seriousness though, if Nye was awarded the honour for rescuing Macedonian Americans instead of US military instructors why wouldn't the article have been updated to say that by now.

There's many reasons. Probably most politicians don't keep up with editing articles about themselves. The problem is not even that: it's that it doesn't cite anything about US military instructors. So, even if Nye has seen it and decided not to edit it, it still doesn't present us with any evidence that that's what Nye said or did in Macedonia in 2001.

There is also the other well known story from this conflict regarding the dropping of supplies to the Albanians of Shipkovica by Chinook helicopters from the American base in Kosovo. The story is confirmed by Canadian war correspondent Scott Taylor. When confronted about this, the US at first denied everything and when given photographic evidence, they explained it was humanitarian supplies such as food. Scott Taylor was embeded with the terrorists and asked them about this. They laughed and told him it was the middle of summer and did anyone really believe they needed food drops to survive. The book is called Diary of Un-Civil War and I have it. And I think we can both agree here that Scott Taylor is a much more credible source than Wikipedia.

I've read about this one, though I haven't read that book. I find it odd, however, that Taylor (and Macedonians) would take the Albanian terrorists at their word. If Taylor didn't see the actual supplies, then we have every right to question what was in those boxes and still leave that matter unsettled. I can list a couple of reasons just now why the Albanians would lie: 1) they are a prideful people, generally; 2) they wanted to make themselves seem better organized and capable of sustaining a long lasting insurgency; and 3) to convince journalists that NATO/EU supported the Albanians to scare the Macedonians into giving up more concessions.

[Risto the Great]

I know.. but we are not a real nation yet.

That betrayal and other similar events led to Bachev leaving the intelligence service and creating a ''nationalist'' party. He wants to punish all those who are responsible. Because all accusations have fallen on deaf ears in the governments of SDS/DPNE.

And to make things clear. I am aware of the apathy here. Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending the sheep majority. It is when you start generalizing that I get annoyed. I don't deserve to be called FyromЕЦ as much as you do. I am working on the field trying to change that sad reality. Give me a break.

Stefan, you are pushing shit uphill my friend. Thank you for your patriotism and passion for Macedonia. I fear there are not enough people with your passion in Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

There aren't many powerful countries that are behind Macedonia when it comes to its sovereignty and name. I understand that in the absence of drastic measures within Macedonia the effect of Russian support would be limited, but they can still serve as a balancing effect so we don't get pushed around by the West.

You make it sound like there are politicians intelligent enough to play these games. Do you remember when they backed Taiwan over China (probably for a few salty chicken feet). This is the level of genius over there.

Back when Macedonia seceded, they sourced political, economic and scientific talent from overseas to assist them. Out of enthusiasm for their motherland, some went to assist. They all lasted a few months before they RAN from the country. Never to return.

If I wasn't Macedonian, it would be an interesting experiment to create a nation out of that parcel of land. I am sure that is what the likes of the EU and USA are doing. I am very sure they don't give a shit about Macedonians or Albanians at precisely the same level. If Macedonians were vocal enough, I am positive they would be noticed and a tinge of hypocrisy would fall upon those seeking to intervene.

[vicsinad]

Stefan, you are pushing shit uphill my friend. Thank you for your patriotism and passion for Macedonia. I fear there are not enough people with your passion in Macedonia.

This is a good point, Risto. Thanks for taking the time to recognize and acknowledge it.

[Big Bad Sven]

You make it sound like there are politicians intelligent enough to play these games. Do you remember when they backed Taiwan over China (probably for a few salty chicken feet). This is the level of genius over there.

Back when Macedonia seceded, they sourced political, economic and scientific talent from overseas to assist them. Out of enthusiasm for their motherland, some went to assist. They all lasted a few months before they RAN from the country. Never to return.

If I wasn't Macedonian, it would be an interesting experiment to create a nation out of that parcel of land. I am sure that is what the likes of the EU and USA are doing. I am very sure they don't give a shit about Macedonians or Albanians at precisely the same level. If Macedonians were vocal enough, I am positive they would be noticed and a tinge of hypocrisy would fall upon those seeking to intervene.

The whole Taiwan thing was a huge debacle. It pretty much set the motion to the 2001 civil war. It also made Macedonia look embarrassing to everyone. It pretty much signalled to other countries that Macedonia’s politicians (and probably people) can be purchased cheaply. It was one of the stupidest political moves in history, only to be recently beaten by Zaev in agreeing to change the name for nothing. I some times think western historians feel sorry for Macedonia and Macedonians and keep these stupid decisions unknown. You can make a really good case study on the long list of idiotic decisions Macedonian politicians have made since 1992. It would be interesting reading and a good warning to young leaders on how to avoid to lead a country like a peasant.

I too have often have shared your train of thought in regards to the USA and EU seeing Macedonia as a pet Frankenstein monster since 2001. They are have used Macedonia as a ‘testing ground’ to see how they can create new little multilateral ‘Switzerland’ countries, slowly chipping away at any national pride and history, forcing ‘concessions’ after ‘concession’ until Macedonia becomes a soulless country.

They have tried this with other weak ‘multicultural’ countries like Bosnia and Kosovo and had some success (but not as great as Macedonia), but it failed in other Balkan and Yugoslav countries because the people there have balls and politicians are actually perusing strategies that benefit the country, and not sell out the country.

[Gocka]

This is directed at a few people, to varying degree's

What many of you are failing to realize is the detrimental effect this line of thinking has on our ability as a people to actually fix anything that is wrong with our homeland.

Essentially what I'm getting from a few people here is this:

We are a small country, other people control us, everything we do is futile, in the end others will dictate virtually everything that happens. If that is true, what is the point then? What are we doing here, venting? What is the point of statehood at all if you believe that you are not actually in control of anything. How is that narrative more appealing to many of you than the opposite? If I had to accept that worldview I would probably have to kill myself. My entire life since before I could speak has been me not taking shit from anyone and doing things my way. I can't even imagine a world where I would have to feel like I don't actually have control of my surroundings.

What this line of thinking does is absolve anyone from ever doing anything useful, or from taking responsibility for anything, because essentially nothing can be your fault if others really made the decision. Doesn't that last bit sound suspiciously convenient? Imagine being the leader of a country, and being able to constantly blame your shortcomings on someone else, hmmm, I wonder what that would look like???

Its all very simple, I don't understand why many of you have this need to make everything so complicated. Its not productive, and I don't see how it can even bring emotional enjoyment, so what is the point? Fucking depressing listening to it.


The greatest and probably the only tool a slave master has is fear. As long as his slaves are in fear of him, his control over them is absolute. The first thing he does is divide the slaves, make sure they are preoccupied with work. Now and then he will pick one of them to use as an example, to convince them that he is the one with the power. The slaves are so focused on their own survival that they ignore each other, sometimes they even betray each other to maintain their own safety. It is ingrained in their heads that this is their destiny, and that they are inferior to their master. It may not be fair but it is just the way it is. It never occurs to the slaves that they outnumber their master many times over. Instead of banding together to gain their freedom, they are more focused on how they can make their enslavement more tolerable. Now and then an individual slaves snaps and tries something and fails. This further instills fear in the rest of the slaves, resistance is futile, everyone always fails. All it takes to bring the whole thing down is for everyone to realize that all they have to do is unite. Yet everyone is so trapped in their own minds that they never make that connection.

Sounds pretty ridiculous right? This is actually have slavery worked/works. Slavery only exists in the minds of the slaves themselves. As soon as they reject the idea of enslavement, they are free and the whole system collapses.

How different is that scenario really from present day Macedonia? Replace some of the language with political jargon and you wouldn't know the difference.

We are supposedly asking Macedonians to take control of their country, all the while telling them that they really can't because the USA is actually in control, thanks for playing though. Or our solution is to convince them to let someone other than the USA take the reigns for a while (Russia).

You are acting like slaves, you should take shame in that.

Is alternative reality bullshit is taking over peoples minds like a disease. The funniest/saddest part of it is that it is perpetuated by the slave masters of the world, and all it does is serve their purposes.

The reason you only see dictators perpetuating these idiotic myths is because that is how they justify their roles as leaders of failed states. To justify their authoritarianism. To justify their brutality. Otherwise what would be their excuse for their brutal actions? Step back for one minute, really think critically about how these failed states function. They are poor, they restrict personal freedom, they punish dissenters. They can never seem to get ahead. In any normal situation you would question how a single leader could preside over a failed state for so long. Oh, that's right, the reason he needs to stay in power is because its really not his fault! It is the evil USA! He has to kill his dissenters because they are not real dissenters that are sick and tired of brutality and poverty, they are American agents trying to bring down an otherwise successful regime. There is no money or resources left over for the populace because the USA stole it all. There is plenty for the master, I mean leader, because of course he is the leader, its not fair but that's the way it is. Its been 10 20 30 years of hell, but just hold on a little longer until we finally topple the evil USA, then everything will be milk and honey. All the slaves, silly me, citizens, live in fear, not of their master, but the evil USA lurking around the corner. The brutal things master does is because he loves us, he is just trying to protect us from the evil that is beyond our borders. Thank god for our master, otherwise what would become of us.

Sounds ridiculous right? Well this is actually how dictatorships worked/work. Notice any similarities?

Who are we to believe.

A society in which people are free to do and think what they want, where people are given the option of who and how their countries will be led. Where the press is free to go where they want and ask what they want and write what they want about who ever they want. Where leaders are questioned and held accountable. Where there is transparency. Where people are not oppressed or repressed.

Or

A society in which people can not say what they think. Where journalists can only ask certain questions and write certain things. Where leaders are not accountable. Where laws only apply to certain people. Where leaders can not be replaces. Where dissent is not allowed.


Its not fucking complicated people.You are glorifying and helping slave masters perpetuate their reign. All the while acting no differently than the slaves they preside over.

This is not about the USA. Its about being mentally enslaved. Take a look in the mirror tomorrow morning and ask yourself why you are predisposed to acting like a scared little salve.

Yes I am mocking many of you, and no I don't give a fuck.

[Pelagonija]

1) The press in the States is no more free than the press in Syria, Australia or Saudi Arabia

2) Saudi and Israel are brutal dictatorships, but they are doing well as they are in bed with the states

3) Opposite of #2 Countries like Iran and Iraq are struggling because of wars and sanctions imposed on them by the states. The only dictators are the countries who propose an alternative system. Btw America installed Saddam Hussain and the Iranian Shar.

4) The US government is a dictatorship, they torture and kill more innocent people than any other country. Why do they have 800 military bases outside of the US.

5) I don’t think anyone is expecting paradise in the case of an American empire going bust. But USA foreign policy has been detrimental to our country with obvious examples noted, going forwarding this will remain. Hence being anti American is pro Macedonian which is cool. I for one enjoy watching documentaries where the US gets an good ass kicking in places like Vietnam and Iraq.

6) To think critically is to think independently. The CNN, NY times and msnbc to name a few are just mouth pieces of the the US propaganda machine. I think %90 people on this forum have this good balance considering most live in the west.

7) To believe in anything American is the opposite of free thinking and nationalism. As they say in the Middle East, death to America hehe these places wouldnt be so farked up without us and western involvement.

[Karposh]

I've read about this one, though I haven't read that book. I find it odd, however, that Taylor (and Macedonians) would take the Albanian terrorists at their word. If Taylor didn't see the actual supplies, then we have every right to question what was in those boxes and still leave that matter unsettled. I can list a couple of reasons just now why the Albanians would lie: 1) they are a prideful people, generally; 2) they wanted to make themselves seem better organized and capable of sustaining a long lasting insurgency; and 3) to convince journalists that NATO/EU supported the Albanians to scare the Macedonians into giving up more concessions.

Sorry everyone if this is starting to get old by now but I can't let this one go. I think we can all agree that Wikipedia is not a credible source but I'm not letting the Yanks off the hook that easily. I don't think we can dismiss Scott Taylor's observations in Shipkovica on the premise that the Albanians were grandstanding to portray some sort of show of force. That is the very definition of speculating. Why would they paint their backers into a corner by ratting them out as providers of military equipment if it wasn't true. That is a conspiracy in itself – the idea that Albanians consciously used journalists to give the impression that NATO supported them in order to scare Macedonians into giving more concessions. Who's being naďve here? The Shiptari were not out to gain more concessions from the Macedonians. Greater language representation and more employment opportunities were the furthest thing from their minds. It's a good fairy tale for the western media to peddle to justify the insurrection and portray the little Serbs (i.e. Macedonians) as the baddies who pushed the Albanians to the edge but as we all know, that's an utter crock of shit! They already had all this and more. The fact is the Shiptari only had one goal in mind in 2001 and that was to carve out their Illirida from Macedonia.

Saying “Taylor didn't see the actual supplies” is akin to saying "If a tree falls in the forest with no one there to hear it fall does it make a sound?” It's not a good argument.
There are other examples throughout Scott Taylor's book that paint the US in a bad light, not just the helicopters, and I might drag them out as well when I get the chance.

But, more importantly, why were the Yanks so secretive in the first place? And why did they invade Macedonian air space for their humanitarian mission without informing the sovereign country first? After all, Macedonia is not Afghanistan. How hard is it to pick up the phone and call someone who cares? It's hard to escape the fact that, at first, the Yanks denied the incident ever happening and, only when confronted with photographic evidence, did they fess up and say it was “Humanitarian Aid”. Maybe the newly arrived Russian Hind 24's should have blown the Chinoooks out of the sky and the Macedonians could have denied any knowledge of it whatsoever. This tactic of deny, deny, deny seems to work well for the Yanks. It's a shame we didn't given it a go when the Chinooks popped over Shar Planina uninvited.

[Rogi]

Moving the topic on, does anyone know who is seriiusly planning to run a campaign across all media in Macedonia to push for a boycott and how can we donate to it?

[vicsinad]

[QUOTE=Karposh;175913]

Sorry everyone if this is starting to get old by now but I can't let this one go. I think we can all agree that Wikipedia is not a credible source but I'm not letting the Yanks off the hook that easily. I don't think we can dismiss Scott Taylor's observations in Shipkovica on the premise that the Albanians were grandstanding to portray some sort of show of force. That is the very definition of speculating.

You didn't see what those supplies were. Taylor didn't see what those supplies were. So, why are you and Taylor both so eager to take the word of Albanian terrorists? I'm not dismissing any of Taylor's observations -- I'm dismissing the words of a few goat-herding terrorists. These are the same people that let journalists into their homes to take pictures of how their families and children were huddled in dark corners of the room living in fear from the "evil Slav forces"; then when the cameras were turned off, the kids were running around outside playing and laughing. Why would I take them at their word without any doubts?

Why would they paint their backers into a corner by ratting them out as providers of military equipment if it wasn't true. That is a conspiracy in itself – the idea that Albanians consciously used journalists to give the impression that NATO supported them in order to scare Macedonians into giving more concessions. Who's being naďve here?

First, how well do you know the Albanian mentality? It's evident to me that you have had very few meaningful interactions with Albanians.

Second, I haven't given any conspiracy theories. I provided reasons for why the terrorists could be lying. You are providing reasons why they are telling the truth. I didn't see those supplies, you didn't see those supplies, Scott Taylor didn't see those supplies. So the question is open, as far as I'm concerned. (Further, the Albanians didn't even need US military weapons: they had an overwhelming and constant supply from the Albanian Diaspora and from the leftovers from the chaos that rocked Albania in the 1990s).

The Shiptari were not out to gain more concessions from the Macedonians. Greater language representation and more employment opportunities were the furthest thing from their minds.

You interpreted me saying "concessions" as meaning greater language representation and employment opportunities. Territory is also a concession. As a matter of fact, Ljubcho Georgievski and MANU (I believe) authorized a "plan" in summer of 2001 that envisioned an exchange of territory between Macedonia and Albania: where Macedonia would get access to the Adriatic Sea and Albanians would get northwestern Macedonia. These are the concessions many of the terrorists were looking for, but they wouldn't have accepted that proposal because over 100,000 Albanians would remain in Macedonia in Kumanovo and Skopje region.

Saying “Taylor didn't see the actual supplies” is akin to saying "If a tree falls in the forest with no one there to hear it fall does it make a sound?” It's not a good argument.

Not quite my argument, but okay. Your argument is: "this is what the Albanian terrorists said." You take them at their word for what was in those boxes, then you don't trust them for a second with their claims to journalists and the West that they were fighting for rights. Why pick and choose when you decide to believe the terrorists? Leave Taylor out of it for a second because he did not see anything first-hand (his testimony would probably not even hold up in a court of law): what he is telling you is second-hand information. I can tell you why you are so eager to believe the terrorists in this instance and not the other: because it fits your narrative of the evil Americans controlling and directing the situation.

But, more importantly, why were the Yanks so secretive in the first place? And why did they invade Macedonian air space for their humanitarian mission without informing the sovereign country first? After all, Macedonia is not Afghanistan. How hard is it to pick up the phone and call someone who cares? It's hard to escape the fact that, at first, the Yanks denied the incident ever happening and, only when confronted with photographic evidence, did they fess up and say it was “Humanitarian Aid”. Maybe the newly arrived Russian Hind 24's should have blown the Chinoooks out of the sky and the Macedonians could have denied any knowledge of it whatsoever. This tactic of deny, deny, deny seems to work well for the Yanks. It's a shame we didn't given it a go when the Chinooks popped over Shar Planina uninvited

.

I'll leave this be for now.