The savior no one is talking about

[Gocka]

Ok Stefan, lets try and break this down in a civil way.

You were the first to mention Russia and the USA.

Me being against a person or party that promotes Macedonian slave mentality is not anti Macedonian. It is exactly what it means to be pro Macedonian.

I don't have a hate for Russia, nor a love for the USA. I just call it how I see it. I am not trying to attack you, I am attacking your ideas, I am trying to help you come to the realization that a lot of the things you are saying are contradictory to your stated goal (helping Macedonia)

Maybe you want to be pro Macedonian, maybe you think you are being pro Macedonian. But you can not be Pro anything else, and yet still be Pro Macedonian. Pick up a history book, read what our brave heroes went through, what they thought, what they advocated for, where they went wrong, etc. You will find that much of what you are advocating for has already been proposed, tried, and failed miserably for us as a people.

Simply blindly putting all your faith in someone who claims to be doing it for the good of Macedonia is not good enough. That is not what a good Macedonian does. A good Macedonian, questions, thinks and reasons through the bullshit.

Why do you think you care more than me? Because you are willing to blindly follow a moron? I support and advocate everything that is pro Macedonian. I love my people and want the best for them. I want Macedonia to free and prosperous, not some slave state like we have been for centuries now.

Your ideas and assertions are being challenged, and that is provocation? I've asked you now for the 4th time to explain to me how it is in Macedonia's interests to be the only country in the region and most of Europe to be on the Russian side? What you don't understand is that by letting Russia into your backyard is the same as letting a drug dealer sell drugs on your front steps. You are inviting trouble. They are at odds with all of Europe, we are in Europe, so their rivals become our rivals, why? Why would we want to become rivals with an entire continent to gain the support of 1 country? If you can explain to me how that is a smart move, I will admit that you are right. Sounds fair?

You say I won't support a pro Macedonian party. I say they are not a pro Macedonian party. In my point of view, you are the one who doesn't care about your country, and are not acting in a Pro Macedonian way.

Gocka you miserable piece of shit because of you and your american ass kissing the topic has become USA vs Russia. You will not support a pro-Macedonian political party because of your American bias and hatred for Russia.
You are the one that is being pathetic with your childish provocations. Macedonia has been, is and always will be my primary concern. I wish you could say the same you disgusting pro-American piece of shit. Sitting on your ass and eating shit on the forums insulting the people in the motherland while not looking at yourself.

Here is what you need to do. Tear your Macedonian passport to shreds (if you have one), leave this forum, don't teach your kids Macedonian and forget that you have roots here. Alright?
And don't say ''we'' because you are not one of us. You are a proud Yank.

[Gocka]

Ok what questions do you want me to answer. I will answer all of them if you answer mine afterwards, fair?

And Gocka mate... you don't know me or anything about me man. You took a few things out of my sentences written with rage and now you think you can lecture me. Also you ignored my questions and started childishly making fun of my points, and now you want me to answer your questions?? Nah sorry mate.

[Carlin]

Please let's not start another personality cult around a "savior"...

Remember Ljubco Georgievski the savior?

Georgievski, 6 years ago
ГЕОРГИЕВСКИ: РЕПУБЛИКА СЕВЕРНА МАКЕДОНИЈА

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv0aCd1oZR0

[Gocka]

Listen, these types of things are bound to end up in arguments. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I worry about people who don't argue, that means they don't care.

If you care about something, defend it, don't back down just because you are challenged.

I'm tired of always ending up in an argument with you mate.

How do you know I judge from a far? I lived half my life in Macedonia, i have about 5 family members in the USA, everyone else lives in Macedonia. My father spent the majority of his life trying to sort out our miserable country and people. Ever since I became old enough to know anything I have been trying to be involved and make a difference in Macedonia. I am just trying to open your eyes to some of the contradictions you are making. If Bachev is influencing Macedonians to continue to act like inferior slaves, then I don't care that he says he wants to change the flag or end the OFA or whatever else sounds good. Because if the people don't learn how to think and act for themselves, then nothing can ever be accomplished and sustained. Teaching Macedonians to seek Russian protection, will only perpetuate the type of mentality that has kept Macedonia down for centuries. It doesn't have to be Russia, you can substitute the word Russia with anyone or thing, the point still stands. You say you don't want Macedonians to be inferior, yet dismiss how seeking someone's protection is an act of inferiority?

I know it must be really easy to judge from afar what is right and wrong but believe me trying to break the inferiority complex of the people here is harder than it sounds. I've been doing that my whole life, trying to raise the patriotism and will of the people.

The boycott campaign is a useless waste of time and will lead to a referendum win for Zaev and co. The only point of a boycott is to delegitimize the referendum. The referendum is and has been illegitimate before it was even announced. The reality is that Zaev and his cronies don't care about legitimacy. So trying to delegitimize them is a total waste of effort. Zaev hasn't cared about the law and constitution since he took office, why wold he care about the turnout for a referendum that isn't binding anyway? If you want to help Macedonia, convince as many people as you can to go and protest the day of the referendum, and to make blockades on the voting stations. If you want to stop the referendum, we have to literally stop the referendum physically.

Now I am active in the boycott campaign.

You don't have to convince me, I am anti EU, I know that it will not change anything in Macedonia because Macedonia is corrupt and in shambles, the EU can't fix that. There is rampant theft and corruption, the economy is non existent, there is not rule of law or justice. These are all problems that need to be fixed from within. The people have always allowed everyone to divide them. If they didn't Macedonia wouldn't be split into 4 countries. That is why I am giving you such a hard time, because the details matter. Macedonians have made bad choices for generations, and we have been continually worse off because of that. That is why we must maintain a hard line when it comes to our principles and morals, otherwise the opportunists will use us like they always have.

Try to understand that for 30 years people have been exposed to heavy propaganda that if we get in the EU it will be heaven on earth. That the path with the least resistance is the best one. A whole generation has grown up with that propaganda. Also with 6 electoral units it's really hard for other parties to come to power and the 2 main ones have totally divided the people.

No one is perfect. You and I are not perfect. But there are certain things that we can not allow. How do you know Bachev doesn't have an ulterior motive along Russian lines? How do you know he isn't just pandering to Macedonian nationalists such as your self? Do I have to remind you of Ljupcho the Bugarin? He also said all the right things as it related to Macedonian nationalism, and then he embarrassed our entire country. Ljupcho didn't even show signs. Bachev on the other hand is already saying and doing things that alarm me, imagine if he gets power? Even if he is not genuine in his pro Russian bullshit, than he is still a bad leader. A real leader would not perpetuate such harmful propaganda just to gain votes from people who are misguided. A real leader would try and convert the misguided to proper pro Macedonians. So whether he is genuinely a Russian stooge or not, he is a bad leader either way. Zaev also said he would never change Macedonia's name, but here we are. We can't just blindly follow, we must question and make our leaders prove to us that they are genuine. So if you feel Bachev is genuine, confront him on the Russian flag bullshit, see what he says.

I know that EM is not 100% perfect but at the moment it is the only patriotic choice. The others are sell-outs.

You called me many things, stooge and lost are nicer than some of things you said, so I have no pity for you.

You think you are the only one who thinks or cares? Wtf do you think all of this is? Me and a couple of friends try and run a diaspora organization with no money, no support, and take time out of our own daily lives to do things to make a difference.

Don't you dare call me a Russian stooge or a lost mind. I have had many sleepless nights because of Macedonia. Every day I think of the mess that we are in.

Again stop assuming that you are the only person who cares. We realize more than you the severity of the situation. In many regards it's even harder for us in the diaspora because we have very little influence over what is happening, yet it impacts us directly. If Macedonia changes its name, we lose our identity just like you, expect we have no say in the matter. Do you understand the scenario, what it feels like to watch from a far while someone else totally destroys your identity.

And the faster you realize who's scenario this is, the better.

We were commenting on internal Macedonian issues the whole time. That is what I am trying to convince you of this whole time. Bachev is waving around the Russian flag, like our misguided shiptari wave around the American flag. That is an internal Macedonian issue friend.

I'm not going to comment on anything outside of Macedonia anymore. It's no use.

I suggest all following posts to be of internal Macedonian politics only.
Or other social subjects of interest.

[Spirit]

Nearly every one of these nations has contributed to or joined the US in nearly every major conflict the US has been in since the end of WW2. So, by association and explicit support, they are evil and sinister as well.

Vic, Germany and France did not send troops to the illegal invasion of Iraq. You’ve got to remember the outright lie about the WMD that was used as a pretext for the invasion of Iraq.
So outright lying about WMD was not sinister?

[Gocka]

There is a good change that the pretext was made up.

In my younger years I was more inclined to believe that all of these disastrous wars were the result of evil people with evil self serving intentions. The older I get, I become more enlightened, but also more jaded.

The more people I interact with, and the more I get involved in politics and political matter, I begin to realize something.

Most people are really freaking stupid, and our governments are generally staffed with and run by the same stupid people you see all around you. If you really start paying attention, and look at all the things your government attempts to do, you begin to realize that they can not do a single damn thing correctly, even the little things.

I guess it is possible that they are super cunning and smart, and everything they do is according to plan. Honestly I don't think these people are smart enough to pull it off.

Just watch a few hours of CSPAN (channel that shows congress proceedings all day). You realize they have the power to make war, and yet half of them are illiterate. It will change your life. Everything makes so much more sense when you realize that most people are just dumb.

Vic, Germany and France did not send troops to the illegal invasion of Iraq. You’ve got to remember the outright lie about the WMD that was used as a pretext for the invasion of Iraq.
So outright lying about WMD was not sinister?

[Spirit]

There is a good change that the pretext was made up.

In my younger years I was more inclined to believe that all of these disastrous wars were the result of evil people with evil self serving intentions. The older I get, I become more enlightened, but also more jaded.

The more people I interact with, and the more I get involved in politics and political matter, I begin to realize something.

Most people are really freaking stupid, and our governments are generally staffed with and run by the same stupid people you see all around you. If you really start paying attention, and look at all the things your government attempts to do, you begin to realize that they can not do a single damn thing correctly, even the little things.

I guess it is possible that they are super cunning and smart, and everything they do is according to plan. Honestly I don't think these people are smart enough to pull it off.

Just watch a few hours of CSPAN (channel that shows congress proceedings all day). You realize they have the power to make war, and yet half of them are illiterate. It will change your life. Everything makes so much more sense when you realize that most people are just dumb.

It’s the same here in Australia Gocka, watch Question Time, the show that shows the proceedings of the parliament for the day and you will see childish behaviours by people who are supposedly well educated and enlightened to run this country when in reality most of them are nothing but a bunch of self serving Neanderthals.

[Pelagonija]

It wasn't Russia that sent troops to Macedonia in the early 1990s to secure the Macedonian border and deter potential Serbian aggression toward Macedonia. It was the US who did so, after the CIA warned of an imminent Serbian military invasion of Macedonia was about to take place. Russia at the time was probably more than excited for Serbia's potential quest to capture Macedonia.

For the past two decades, the US-Macedonia relationship has essentially rested on Macedonia becoming a NATO member. That's the primary goal for US in Macedonia: they are not seeking the destruction of the country or widespread destabilization. Macedonia has signaled to the US for two decades that it wants into NATO. The US is tired of the name issue, and pressuring Macedonia is the path of least resistance. Interference in Macedonia's internal affairs is more likely to secure Macedonia's NATO membership than forcing Greece to cave in.

Is it right? No. It's wrong and it needs to be stopped. But America's interference is narrow and particular and the people executing the policies view themselves and their agenda as a morally superior one. They have no reason to desire Macedonia's destruction. I do think US diplomats/policymakers are somewhat naive or oblivious, because they don't fully understand Greece's and Bulgaria's intentions with regard to Macedonia. If Macedonians want to stop this nonsense, then they need to stop being apathetic, intimidated, and passive. More importantly, they need to make the price of US interfering in Macedonia's democracy/internal affairs too high so US changes strategy. Right now, Macedonians are making it too easy for Americans.


Anyway, I'm not a fan of Bachev's reliance on Russia, whether it's an actual reliance or even the appearance of an alliance to attract a certain group of supporters/attention. And I don't want to elevate anyone to savior status who hasn't accomplished anything substantial yet. But if he's sincere and genuine and can motivate people to stand up to SDS/DPNE, then good luck to him and I wish him the best. I hope he and his party remain principled. Changing the mentality and attitude of an entire society is not easy, so even some positive momentum will be welcomed.

1) Vic why could the Americans warn of the immenent threat from the Serbs yet they couldn’t warn fyrom and stop the Albanians from attacking us from Kosova? a province they occupy.

2) US sent troops to the border? Are you referring to the UN force? which mandate was ended by the Chinese once Vasil the cunt Turpolkovski recognised Tawain?

America has killed more children than any other country in our lifetime, fallable? I think it’s pure greed and evil and no one in terms of volume can compete.

Any decent human being would hate America knowing the facts not based emotive bias and propaganda.Does anyone value the lives of children? or any other innocent person doing their best at what ever they do.

As referred to previously, youtube jimmy dore and see what Normal progressives think of America.

Of course America is not out to specifically destroy fyrom in some conspiracy, we are just collateral damage from America’s general evilness. Now now if US was great they would have told the Greeks to shut the fark up and recognise us. The humanitarians my asss. Fallable hell no, more like cruel, calculated and down right evil.

[vicsinad]

Vic, Germany and France did not send troops to the illegal invasion of Iraq. You’ve got to remember the outright lie about the WMD that was used as a pretext for the invasion of Iraq.
So outright lying about WMD was not sinister?

Well, as I said, nearly every major conflict. And yes -- it was an outright lie, and it was a terrible lie that made Iraq worse off because of the invasion. Shoot, I was heckled and harassed in high school for making an anti-Iraq War speech. I wasn't in support of it. US officials have this tendency to think they can solve problems with military force. That has clearly not been the case since the end of WW2.

US foreign policy is dictated by its interests. And most of the Western world follows US where it goes, because their interests are protected if they do so. US supports them in their conquests as well, such as Italy's and France's war on Libya.

The lie was sinister, the war was reckless and unneeded, the aftermath has thus far been counterproductive and a waste of life. Hussein is gone, but that may have been completed with a few CIA plots.

[vicsinad]

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;175842]

1) Vic why could the Americans warn of the immenent threat from the Serbs yet they couldn’t warn fyrom and stop the Albanians from attacking us from Kosova? a province they occupy.

They could not, just 1 1/2 years later, come out and state that the very people they supported in a bombing campaign were now the threat and aggressors. That would have, in the US eyes, masked all their justifications for bombing Serbia.

2) US sent troops to the border? Are you referring to the UN force? which mandate was ended by the Chinese once Vasil the cunt Turpolkovski recognised Tawain?

Yes.

America has killed more children than any other country in our lifetime, fallable? I think it’s pure greed and evil and no one in terms of volume can compete.

Through war? It's possible, though I haven't seen any statistics. Greed and misdirection, certainly.

Any decent human being would hate America knowing the facts not based emotive bias and propaganda.Does anyone value the lives of children? or any other innocent person doing their best at what ever they do.

I don't think decent human beings should hate America. I think there are many decent human beings in America trying to change American domestic and foreign policy.

As referred to previously, youtube jimmy dore and see what Normal progressives think of America.

I know what progressives think -- I supported Bernie (although he had some contradictions) and I live in Bernie's state of Vermont, where we just had a 14 year old and a transgendered woman run against each other in the Democratic primary for governor.

Of course America is not out to specifically destroy fyrom in some conspiracy, we are just collateral damage from America’s general evilness. Now now if US was great they would have told the Greeks to shut the fark up and recognise us. The humanitarians my asss. Fallable hell no, more like cruel, calculated and down right evil.

US should have pressured Greece to not veto Macedonia. Then again, I never said US is doing this for humanitarian reasons. The US is following their interests, which means the path of least resistance while attaining maximal results. Since Macedonia has negotiated its name for 25 years now, US has no reason to pressure Greece to drop the dispute.

[Pelagonija]

Ahh Apparently the US has killed 20 million people since world war 2

https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-in-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051

Checkout the pic of the baby.. US used DU in Iraq and serbia.. this is a war crime..

https://www.mintpressnews.com/depleted-uranium-iraq-wars-legacy-cancer/193338/

Americans should be ashamed of themselves and yes every normal person should hate and be aware of the America.. very dangerous they are..

[vicsinad]

Ahh Apparently the US has killed 20 million people since world war 2

https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-has-killed-more-than-20-million-people-in-37-victim-nations-since-world-war-ii/5492051

Okay, I don't want to get in a dispute about this because in general I feel the US has been interfering where it shouldn't be. But if you read what is actually in this article, you can't say that the "US has killed 20 million people since world war 2."

Afghanistan-Soviet War:

The U.S. is responsible for between 1 and 1.8 million deaths during the war between the Soviet Union and Afghanistan, by luring the Soviet Union into invading that nation.

The US aided a government before a war started: true. The US, however, never ordered the Soviet Union to invade Afghanistan. If the Soviet didn't invade, there would be no deaths. And while the US had a role in the Soviet-Afghan war, the US is not responsible for the up to 1.8 million people that died, mostly due to Soviet gunfire. Those deaths are on the hands of the Soviets and Afghan government. It's a leap to say that the US is responsible for those deaths. It's kind of like saying US is responsible for all the Jews dying in WW2 because for a while the US was still trading with Germany. Let's not support preposterous claims that would weaken an otherwise legitimate argument.

Angola:

An indigenous armed struggle against Portuguese rule in Angola began in 1961. ... U.S. intervention was justified to the U.S. public as a reaction to the intervention of 50,000 Cuban troops in Angola. However, according to Piero Gleijeses, a history professor at Johns Hopkins University the reverse was true. The Cuban intervention came as a result of a CIA – financed covert invasion via neighboring Zaire and a drive on the Angolan capital by the U.S. ally, South Africa1,2,3). (Three estimates of deaths range from 300,000 to 750,000.

Again, was it US troops involved in most of these deaths? I see South Africa, Cuba, Portugal, Angola...what I see is US inserting itself and taking advantage of an ongoing situation. The US is less responsible for these deaths than the other nations.

Cambodia

U.S. bombing of Cambodia had already been underway for several years in secret under the Johnson and Nixon administrations, but when President Nixon openly began bombing in preparation for a land assault on Cambodia it caused major protests in the U.S. against the Vietnam War... Immense damage was done to the villages and cities of Cambodia, causing refugees and internal displacement of the population. This unstable situation enabled the Khmer Rouge, a small political party led by Pol Pot, to assume power. Over the years we have repeatedly heard about the Khmer Rouge’s role in the deaths of millions in Cambodia without any acknowledgement being made this mass killing was made possible by the the U.S. bombing of that nation which destabilized it by death , injuries, hunger and dislocation of its people.

So the U.S. bears responsibility not only for the deaths from the bombings but also for those resulting from the activities of the Khmer Rouge – a total of about 2.5 million people. Even when Vietnam latrer invaded Cambodia in 1979 the CIA was still supporting the Khmer Rouge.

US may share some responsibility, and it is definitely responsible for all killings during its bombings, but the US did not kill the 2+ million people under the Khmer Rogue. US actions may have enabled them to come to power, but it's a far stretch to say that the US killed these people.

Chad

An estimated 40,000 people in Chad were killed and as many as 200,000 tortured by a government, headed by Hissen Habre who was brought to power in June, 1982 with the help of CIA money and arms. He remained in power for eight years.

The US did not kill these people.

I could keep on going, but it's futile. Yes, US hands have been everywhere. But to paint the US as the killers in most of what this article is saying is skewing reality. It makes it seem as if the US was removed from the world, it would be a peace loving place, everybody singing kumbaya and living in eternal bliss. The truth is that the world is a nasty place, it has been a nasty place well before the US, and it will continue being a nasty place after the US is no longer a power. There are conflicts going on in the world and the US does what any other power does and has done: try to see if they can insert themselves to get something out of it. It's not right. But let's not kid ourselves: this crap would go on without the US. Certainly, as an American citizen, I find it alarming and hypocritical that our governments continue doing this.

Americans should be ashamed of themselves and yes every normal person should hate and be aware of the America.. very dangerous they are.

Well, most Americans don't hate themselves and most of the Western world doesn't. They still support the US in most of its endeavors. So, if you have to, hate and be ashamed of yourself, while you're at it.

[Carlin]

Елена Гули, внука на Питу Гули - говорот во Прилеп

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pEzLn99-4w

[Gocka]

Well I can''t say I didn't try. Good old Thomas Paine

You claim to care about Macedonia, but from what I can tell you can't be bothered.

Znam samo vie znajte sve. Zatoa drzavata e propadnavte, od shto ste mnogu pametni i vo politika i sve.

You are the bullied kid that needs to stand up for himself you fool. You are either to dumb or too proud to admit it. Macedonia has been the bullied kid who needs to stand up for himself since Turkish occupation. Macedonians are a scared and weak people who live their lives with their tales between their legs.

Yes all of you fyromci know everything about how the world works from you 3rd world, landlocked, isulated kafanan heaven. Most of you have never stepped foot outside of your insulated black hole, yet you are experts and geopolitics. That is why you have changed your flag, your name now for a second time, given up your history, identity, territory, dignity,. That is why you have no economy, no laws, no morality, no money, no education, no freedom, no liberty. Because you idiots know so much about how the world works.

You are proud enough to no listen to anyone, but not proud enough to stand up for yourselves, pathetic.

Gocka all of your worries have been answered in previous posts. If you don't want to believe it then don't make me repeat myself again.
You have no clue about politics, it's like you're giving a motivational speech to a bullied kid that needs to stand up for himself. Ridiculous... You need to understand how the world works.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Any Macedonian who says " I’m pro Russian and love the Russian flag" , is just as misguided as any Bugaromani, Grkomani or the like.

There's a difference. A Macedonian being pro-Russian doesn't necessarily mean being anti-Macedonian, whereas a Macedonian being pro-Bulgarian or pro-Greek is by definition anti-Macedonian.

Syria is and has been run by a brutal dictatorship Russia is helping prop up that dictatorship because of its own interests, not because of those of Syria or its people. I don't consider this a win for the Syrian people.

The current government is far from perfect but at least it is secular and comparatively more inclusive of the various ethnic and religious groups in Syria. The so-called 'rebel' alternative is problematic for an array of reasons. Neither may be a particularly attractive choice for the people but it is all they have at this time. As for Russia, of course it has its own interests in Syria but at least it is there at the request of the government. The U.S. intruded into a sovereign state, made catastrophic alliances and pushed a collective agenda in unison with certain regional actors which only made the situation worse. If the U.S. didn't become involved in the way it did, the conflict would already be over.

Alabamians have every right to live, even in Macedonia.

They should probably stay in Alabama

Reverse the OFA, and everything pertaining to it, and that's that.

Do you think the U.S. would ever allow a reversal of the OFA?

I'm sure Russia would prefer to support Albanians over Macedonians but they have no choice. It's only Macedonia and Servia for them or nothing.

Why would Russia prefer to support Albanians over Macedonians?

It wasn't Russia that sent troops to Macedonia in the early 1990s to secure the Macedonian border and deter potential Serbian aggression toward Macedonia. It was the US who did so....

Their military presence in the early 90's had more to do with containing Serbia than saving Macedonia. Less than a decade later they supported their new proxies in the region against the Macedonians. And let's not even delve into the earlier disaster that befell our people after WWII due to U.S. support for Greek fascists. Neither the U.S. nor Russia has had our best interests at heart, but right now, our national objectives align more (or at least conflict less) with Russia's political positions regarding the Balkans rather than those of the U.S., or the EU for that matter. A smart Macedonia should balance the influence of both the west and the east where practical and beneficial.