Macedonia and NATO

[Pantaleon]

Not according to Human Rights Watch. You do realize that there’s nothing that you can say regarding this matter to counter what can be readily and independently researched by anyone with even the slightest interest in investigating these dishonest statements? Ethnic Macedonians are forbidden to speak the Macedonian language in the Republic of Hellas. This is a fact. What you’ve presented is an untruth.

You are right, there is nothing more i can say, the following United Nations report speaks for itself..

the link is this

http://www.unog.ch/unog/website/news_media.nsf/(httpNewsByYear_en)/E70BAE8DBF374DD4C125760F002F9B2B?OpenDocument

but i will cut and paste the info refarding our conversation

The Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination has considered the combined sixteenth to nineteenth periodic reports of Greece on its implementation of the provisions of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Below you can read the points that consern the Slavmacedonians in Greece.

Report of Greece
In the context of minorities, references made by a very small number of non-governmental organizations to a so-called “Macedonian minority” in Greece do not correspond to existing realities. The fact that a small number of persons who live in Northern Greece use, in addition to the Greek language, Slavic oral idioms, does not indicate the existence of a national minority. Furthermore, the use of the term “Macedonian” to describe a so-called minority usurps the name and national and cultural identity of some two and a half million Greeks who identify themselves for many centuries as Macedonians (Makedones) in the regional and cultural context and can therefore not be accepted.


Presentation of Report
In this connection, claims that Greece did not recognize the existence of a national linguistic minority by the name of “Macedonian” were totally unsubstantiated and threatened to create potential tensions over existing identities in the region, as well as serious confusion over that name, as it was also used by hundreds of thousands Greek Macedonians living in the northern part of the country, said Ms. Telalian. Also, the non-recognition of numerically small groups as a national minority did not imply discriminatory treatment.
Oral Questions Raised by the Rapporteur and Experts

JOSE LINDGREN ALVES, the Committee Expert serving as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece, said he could not agree more with Greece’s answer to his question as to why Greece had not ratified the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities of the Council of Europe, while it had signed it in 1997. In its response Greece had said that the diversity of legal and socio-political circumstances and historic traditions prevailing in each country called for tailor-made rather than “one size fits all” conceptual approaches and practical solutions. If this response held true for Europe, it held truer for the rest of the world.

Turning to the question of those who insisted on a Slavic Macedonian minority, Mr. Lindgren Alves said that the most important thing was to assure their human rights in general, including their right to use their dialect or mother language, as any other group. The non-recognition of a group as a minority did not deprive such a group from the enjoyment of its rights. He had been interested to learn that even a political party to foster the claims of Slavic Macedonians had been accepted and had been freely participating in parliamentary elections.

One Expert noted that there was a group speaking a Slavic language in the country, they did not need to be considered as Macedonians, if this led to confusion over the name, but they were still using a Slavic language, which they had not invented and they should have the right to use it. Also political parties should not be divided by ethnicities as this could undermine the unity of the State. Further, for him it was more important to know whether a minority had the right to use its language, not if it had the right to form a political party.
Response by Delegation to Oral Questions

On the so-called Slavic “Macedonians” the delegation said that this was not a case of self identification as this group did not base its identification on objective criteria. The “Slavic” qualifier was not used in this case. The only qualifier used by this community was the “Macedonian” one. The problem was that the “Macedonian” term was already used by thousands of people in Greece. Up until recently, this group of “Slavic Macedonians” had been completely unknown, not only to Greece but to the whole Balkan region.

The delegation said that the “Slavic Macedonians” were however not prevented from speaking their oral idiom or from stating that they were part of a certain group. The fact that the Greek State had not officially recognised them did not mean that this community was not fully enjoying its rights and that its members were not fully respected by the Greek State.

The delegation underscored that there was a dignity in the name of the Greek Macedonians and said that Greece had not gotten any answer yet on why the State should not respect the cultural and historical heritage of the Greek Macedonians. It had nothing to do with the denial of the existence of a minority group but the denial of a name that was already used since a long time.




Further Oral Questions Posed by Experts
Jose Lindgren Alves, the Committee Expert serving as country Rapporteur for the report of Greece, said that, on the question of the so-called “Slavic Macedonians”, he did not know that they were denying their Slavic origin, even though he had been an ambassador to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. He wondered if it would change something if this community would recognise its “Slavic Macedonian” culture.

Replies by the Delegation
Responding to this question, the delegation said that they were not in a position to respond in a hypothetical sense. Very recently, Greece had said that the “Slavic Macedonians” should have used a qualifier to clarify their origin. Why were they constantly using the name Macedonian, which already identified 2.5 million Macedonians in the cultural sense? Even the former leaders of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia had admitted that they were of Slavic origin. This question had only come up in the last years. Everyone in the Balkans knew very well what minorities there were in the Balkans, as the question of minorities in the Balkans had created so many tensions in the region. This was the very first time that they had heard of a “Macedonian” group in this region. It was a question of dignity of the name “Macedonian”.

This difference had created a tension with the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and even the United Nations Security Council had said that there was a difference in the name. This situation had to be solved. In Security Council resolution 1845, the Council had asked the two parties to settle the question under the auspices of the United Nations.

This clearly showed that what was in a name had several historical and political implications. It was not a question of a specific denial but the risk of creating tension among identities in the Balkans.

[El Bre]

@ Mods, If you take the time to read the previous link posted by the Greek member, you will realise that the member has manipulated the text in order to suit his / her own agenda.

[Pantaleon]

The opinions and politically biased findings of those who sought to remove Macedonia from existence are of no consequence to this discussion. Again, you are assuming an ignorance that was never there for you to exploit in the first place. The occupation of Macedonia was pre-meditated. I suggest you read up on Ion Dragoumis, before attempting this approach again. You might also try doing a search for some of the threads on this site regarding these questionable questionnaires. The Nazis also manipulated information for the sake of political gain.

well lets say what Ionas Dragounis said. i assume you are a Non Greek speaker so here is the translation

-(Dragoumis)Instead i was ready to make the same remark to you.You want to make yours the district of Monastir and Monastir itself,because there are some villages that speak the Macedonian language which you call Bulgarian.
-Some villages!But all the villages there speak Bulgarian!
-(Dragoumis)Let them be many!Do they want though to be Greeks or they don't?And if they want it,i don't know whether the language that someone speaks is enough proof of the ethnicity of a people.This language,first of all,is not spoken by all but only by some Macedonian peasants;then,those who use it,do it only at home and not in the market,where Greek is spoken and finally,this language is not Bulgarian but a mix of Slavic and Greek.It's not Bulgarian language because the Bulgarian language doesn't exist any more,not even in Bulgaria.The towns of Macedonia are clearly Greek,that is the civilization of the place is Greek,the history of the place is Greek and the earth,the soil are Greek.These cannot be forged,as much as the Bulgarian nation endeavors.
-I don't understand nor i could ever understand that theory of yours,that the Macedonian peasants lost their language and adopted the Bulgarian one.
-(Dragoumis)Neither me can also understand how the Bulgarians who are Hunno-Tatars lost their language and took....

Dragoumis in this Book "Blood of heroes and martyrs" states that these folls were Slavonized Greeks that sopoke a "mix of Greek and Slavic". so what about Dragoumis?

This is because you weren’t educated according to historical reality, but, rather, a politically defined set of interpretations designed to reinforce the process of assimilation

oooh thats a bit harsh Sovius. So you assume i am assimilated, or Greeks have used these tools to assimilate?

Consequently, I can no longer walk past a Greek restaurant without bursting into uncontrollable laughter.

Especially on those live Greek music nights, yes it can be hillarious!

The Macedonian refugees that moved into my family’s neighborhood a few generations back speak more towards the reality of Macedonia than media which served a political purpose during a certain day and age. Ever hear of Mike Illitch or the Detroit Red Wings?

well if you trust american papers as you said a few posts back, i assume you trust the validity of the US immigration commision reports back in 1911. No Macedonians here. Do we assume they arrived much laterr?

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9607/dictionaryofpeopleandrauj8.jpg

here is a 1910 college publication

http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/6726/ourslavicfellowcitizensnp9.jpg

US newspaper
New York Times, May 21, 1911

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C0CE0DA1431E233A25752C2A9639C946096D6CF

Encyclopedia of Canada's peoples By Paul R. Magocsi, Multicultural History Society of Ontario

http://books.google.com/books?id=dbUuX0mnvQMC&pg=PA289#v=onepage&q=&f=false

in this site:

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Macedonian_American

it says "Around 50,000-60,000 Macedonians had emigrated to the US by the end of World War II. At that time and later they were largely classified as Bulgarians. [2] [3] [4] Most of the Americans born of Macedonian Bulgarian descent have hardly any knowledge of Bulgaria and increasingly identify themselves simply as Macedonians"

According to the site Mike Illitch is regarded as a descendant of those people.

The Greek pseudo-argument relies on politically contrived secondary sources, while the Macedonian argument is based on primary source documents and empirical evidence.

[Pantaleon]

@ Mods, If you take the time to read the previous link posted by the Greek member, you will realise that the member has manipulated the text in order to suit his / her own agenda.

it is a direct cut & paste from a UN site. If people are threatend or offended i can take the time to replace that text. If you read my previous posts i dont call you by any names other than the ones you wish and you are. i chose to participate in a Macedonian site, and my interntion is to follow all rules

[Risto the Great]

it is a direct cut & paste from a UN site. If people are threatend or offended i can take the time to replace that text. If you read my previous posts i dont call you by any names other than the ones you wish and you are. i chose to participate in a Macedonian site, and my interntion is to follow all rules

Your first quoted paragraph revealed the following:

Below you can read the points that consern the Slavmacedonians in Greece.

This was no part of of the UN text. El Bre makes a valid point and was correct in his observation.

If the sentence was outside of the quoted text, it would form your text. By including it in the text, you make it look like it was part of accepted UN text. Do you agree with how this is interpreted?

The UN text does refer to "Slavic Macedonians" as part of the reason for their investigation. But you were misleading.

Further, I still await your response to my question earlier in this thread.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dragoumis in this Book "Blood of heroes and martyrs" states that these folls were Slavonized Greeks that sopoke a "mix of Greek and Slavic". so what about Dragoumis?

Here are some observations cited by Anastasia Karakasidou in her "Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood", PAGE 91-2.

Throughout much of the text, Dragoumis wrote in broad, general categories of "Greek" and "Bulgarian". Yet occasionally, particularly when articulating a detailed ethnographic point, he also spoke of "Macedonians of Macedonia" and the "Vlachs of Hellenism". The context of national struggle in Macedonia at the time of Dragoumis' writing shaped a broad rhetorical framework of Greek-Bulgarian opposition in his political discourse. The equally important context of local conditions, as he himself had observed and experienced them, revealed another level of group labels and ideological characteristics masked by the principal Greek-Bulgarian dichotomy, such as the Macedonians of Macedonia (who opposed both Greek and Bulgarian activities) and the Vlachs of Hellenism (who rejected Romanian propaganda and considered themselves members of the Hellenic national collectivity). The depiction is significant, for it addresses the active role Hellenized Vlachs played in establishing the hegemony of the notion (and the policing) of a modern Greek state in Macedonia. As for the "Macedonians", Dragoumis maintained that their language is closer to a mix of Greek and Slavic than to Bulgarian.

Can Karakasidou read Greek properly, or did she misunderstand also?

Dragoumis' observation of the Macedonian language sounding more Greek/Slavic than Bulgarian is important only in the fact that it distinguishes the language from both Greek and Bulgarian. He calls it, like the locals call it, Macedonian. That is MY language, Makedonski, Makedonika, etc - The same language - Macedonian.

[El Bre]

Let's see the whole text from the following link instead of being confined to only a certain passage that serve the Greek member's purpose here.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Macedonian_American

1. Origins
The first Macedonian American immigrants came from the border regions in the north of Greek Macedonia, primarily the regions near Kastoria (Kostur), Florina (Lerin), and the south-west of the Republic of Macedonia, notably around Bitola. It is estimated that around 50,000 Macedonians emigrated to the United States between 1903 and 1906, but the outbreak of the Balkan Wars and World War I stopped the flow. Around 20,000 remained in the US and the rest returned home. The immigrants were predominately peasants, with the remainder including craftsmen, workers and intellectuals. Immigration restarted after the wars; most of the new immigrants were ethnic Macedonians from Greece, many of whom had been expelled from Greek Macedonia in the 1920s. Around 50,000-60,000 Macedonians had emigrated to the US by the end of World War II. At that time and later they were largely classified as Bulgarians. [2] [3] [4] Most of the Americans born of Macedonian Bulgarian descent have hardly any knowledge of Bulgaria and increasingly identify themselves simply as Macedonians. [5]

Why would they have any knowledge of Bulgaria? None of them ever lived there. And...why drop the Bulgarian and not the Macedonian? Could it be because it was a politically contrived appelation that they didn't need to burden themselves with any longer?

2. Post World War II
The aftermath of the war led to a fresh round of Macedonian immigration, primarily from Greece, as a consequence of ethnic Macedonians being expelled by the post-war Greek government or otherwise encouraged to leave after the Greek civil war of 1946-49. 70,000 emigrated to Canada, Australia, the US and other European countries. After Yugoslavia liberalised its emigration policies in 1960, another 40,000 Macedonians emigrated during the period 1960-77. Most have been economic migrants rather than political dissidents. In contrast, Bulgaria historically kept a tight rein on its ethnic Macedonians and allowed very few of them to emigrate.

[Sovius]

You do realize you’re actually proving my argument for me?

Parallel Summary Report on Greece’s Compliance with the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

April 2009

http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/index.php?sec=194&cid=3498

Here’s some excerptions that I would like you to respond to in your own words, if you feel it would be disadvantageous for you to comprehensively respond to the entire report.

In a report on minorities in Greece released in February 2009 by Thomas Hammarberg, Commissioner for Human Rights of the Council of Europe, a Greek state answer was appended. It included a defiant rebuttal of UN Treaty Bodies and Council of Europe monitoring bodies: “There is no Macedonian minority in Greece. In this regard, Greece reiterates its position, that any recommendation by UN treaty bodies and, a fortiori, by other monitoring mechanisms, on the protection of rights of persons claiming to belong to a minority cannot determine the existence of a minority group or impose on States an obligation to officially recognize a group as a minority.”


Hostile climate for national minorities and minority rights NGOs

In its report on Greece, the UN Independent Expert on Minority Issues Gay McDougall wrote in the conclusions inter alia that:

“One also senses an interest in promoting a singular national identity. This approach may leave little room for diversity. It can contribute to a climate in which citizens who wish to freely express their ethnic identities face government blockages and in some instances, intimidation from other individuals or groups. In the northern part of the country some people expressed their view that the term “minority” implies “foreign.” Some consider those who want to identify as a person belonging to a minority ethnic group to be conspirators against the interest of the Greek state.”

The politics of assimilation run deep in the western world. Ethnic cleansing continues around the globe despite, (or often because of) the UN’s efforts or lack thereof. You’re not making a whole lot of progress here and you’re completely avoiding the focus of my argument. I have cans of whitewash at home too. More like the Committee for the Promotion of Ethnic Discrimination, if you want my opinion (or even if you don’t want it).

__________________________

Please comment on this report, as well, as I used this organization’s findings to respond to your initial statements:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/greece/greece945.pdf

Here’s an excerption that I would like you to comment on, in case you feel that a more comprehensive discussion of the entire report would further damage the supposed credibility of your statements.


In June 1993, two Macedonian minority activists, Christos Sideropoulos and Tasos Boulis, were sentenced to five months in prison and a fine of 100,000 drachmas (about $435) for stating in an interview with Ena magazine that they "feel Macedonian," and for claiming that there are one million Macedonians in Greece.

__________________________

and this…

If you feel that it would be in your best interest not to maturely and intelligently respond to the above statements and occurrences, can you please simply respond to the excerptions that I’ve provided from the report below?




Denial of human rights for Macedonians in Greece

Human Rights Movement for Macedonians in Greece, the O.S.C.E. Review Confrence, Vienna, 4–29 1996


Presented By: The Lerin Region Macedonian Cultural Association of Ontario Toronto, Canada, October, 1996

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/419.html

The focus of my argument has been the ethnocide that your ancestors committed against the Macedonians during the early part of the 20th Century and the continuation of this ethnocide into the 21st Century, all the way up to your last post.

Here’s the excerpts that you’ll respond to if it is your intent to discuss the Modern Greek Reality rather than simply regurgitate fragments that can be conveniently fit together to present what would appear to be the semblance of a properly structured counter-argument. What you’re doing is called stitching.




Eradication 1913—over 160 Macedonian villages were burned with significant loss of life and the remaining population forced to flee. 1946—49—further extermination and expulsion of Macedonians during the Greek Civil War.

1926. English journalist V. Hild reveals, “The Greeks do not only persecute living Slavs (Macedonians) …., but they even persecute dead ones. They do not leave them in peace even in their graves. They erase the Slavonic inscriptions on the headstones, remove the bones and burn them.” Decree 87 orders accelerated denationalization of Macedonians. Greek Ministry of Education sent “specially trained” instructors to accelerate conversion to the Greek language.

1987—Greece establishes special “kindergartens” for two and three year old Macedonian children so as to ensure they learn the Greek language and prevent them from learning the Macedonian language at home.

Two and three year olds, huh? Four year old Macedonians too much for you guys?

____________________________

This came up on a search for PASOK

http://macedoniaonline.eu/images/pasoksh8.jpg

Can you translate it for us, please?

[Jankovska]

How pathetic do you have to be to have your country in a righ fucking mess but you are still concentreating on covering up history and everything else you have stolen from the Macedonians. How pathetic do you have to be. He will never resolve the name dispute as no one else will wither, let's cut the crap and start living. The guy is a moron. He only came in power yesterday and already doing the tough talk about Macedonia and Turkey. Oh man I can't wait to see for the Greekos to push the Turks, it will be a mess I will enjoy. Big cry babies running off to the EU begging for some help because BIg Bad Turkey ne zakaca pak.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is a legacy of Popandreev and PASOK:

http://www.faqs.org/minorities/Easte...of-Greece.html

After Andreas Papandreou and his Greek Socialist party PASOK came to power in Greece in 1981, Skopje’s Kiril i Metodija University was taken off the list of foreign academic institutions whose degrees are recognized by Greece as the instruction at the university was in a language, Macedonian, not “internationally recognized”. Greece has repeatedly refused Yugoslavia’s initiatives to bilaterally abolish visas and while Serbs, Croats or other Yugoslav nationals have few problems, special proof is reportedly needed from Macedonian entry visa applicants that they were not born in Aegean Macedonia. Papandreou himself has explicitly denied the existence of a Macedonian minority in Greece and stated that he would not accept any dialogue on this matter. The fall of the PASOK government in June 1989 has not at the time of writing resulted in any significant change.

[George S.]

I have to agree with what jankovska has to say & it's short & to the point.If macedonia really belonged to greece why hide in the dark.We know that the whole deal is a sham.The Greeks are a bunch of kniving thieves.THey stole our land,history,ethnicly cleansed the macedonian people,Denationalised them,Greece has done every trick in the book they can't hide under a rock the world is not stupid.Evidence is coming out that Greece was ready to throw in the proverbial towel as they were losing the war with macedonia as macedonia has been allready recognised by 124 countries & more to come.
I think it's a matter of time the tide is turning & self idetification will win in the end.
Isn't it ridiculous that the macedonians didn't exist then the ones that do exist are labelled slavs,bulgarians,etc.But now there is a twist that the Greeks say that they are the real macedonians.What a joke.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Any truth to the below?

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/8650/46/

Greek Prime Minister Yorgos Papandreou decision to suspend the Ministry of "Macedonia and Thrace" with seat in Solun caused harsh reactions and discontent in Greece, Elefterotipia newspaper writes.

The present Minister for Macedonia and Thrace said that he believes that Papandreou decision to erase the name Macedonia from the Ministry Council might bring to question PASOK position regarding the name issue.

The ministry itself and the name 'Macedonia' had been created by the Karamanlis administration as a leverage in Athens' dispute with the Republic of Macedonia.

The new government has 36 members, 14 Ministers and 22 Deputies, whereas the former government had 44 members. Prior to the Greek elections Papandreou promised the return of all expelled Aegean Macedonians, return of their properties and restoring of their Greek citizenship.

The Aegean Macedonians are currently in the process of suing Greece for confiscated properties between 1946-50. The sum frequently mentioned in media is 12 Billion Euros plus 60 years of rent/usage owed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/bombs-placed-greek-ministers-offices-3091608

Makeshift bombs were placed outside the party offices of a new Greek Socialist minister and a deputy minister in the northern city of Thessaloniki on Friday, police said.

One device, made up of three gas canisters, exploded outside the party office of Greece's Deputy Civil Protection Minister Spyros Vougias, a police spokesman said. There were no injuries.

Another two home-made explosive devices were placed outside the party offices of Justice Minister Harris Kastanidis and a socialist party deputy in the city but did not go off, the spokesman added.

The incidents are the latest in a series of gas canister and bomb attacks by leftist and anarchist groups that have rocked Greece since the police shooting of a teenager sparked the country's worst riots in decades in December.

A new Socialist government swept to power after an October 4 snap election, replacing the conservatives who had ruled the country since 2004.

Here is another bombing incident just prior to the elections:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4755975,00.html

If PASOK is centre-left, why are the leftists bombing them also? I wouldn't expect it to have anything to do with the recent suspension of the Macedonia and Thrace ministry.

[George S.]

uninformed claims

Uninformed with claims

By Stefan Vlahov Micov

Translated (with the aid of Google Translate) and edited by Risto Stefov

November 6, 2009

In a telephone conversation, academic Blaze Ristovski a few days ago admitted that he did not expect that Macedonia would have so many uninformed people with so many claims. It is tiring to read and listen to so many controversies in the Macedonian media surrounding the issue of whether Macedonians are Slavs or Ancient Macedonians and when and how the Macedonian government will compromise on the name of our state!



These are questions befitting the enemies of the Republic of Macedonia who want to manipulate the Macedonian population and should not be used by Macedonian politicians and journalists. Discussions such as these not only employ the language of Greek and Bulgarian propaganda but consciously become the propagators of it.



The reality is that there is a Macedonian identity that exists today regardless of where and when it began, be it in Antiquity or in the Middle Ages, and as such no additional qualifications are required to validate it.



Albanians have no problem claiming to have continuity from 5,000 years ago. Greeks consider it normal to have a continuity that stretches back 4,000 years, Romanians 500 years and Bulgarians claiming to be the successors of the Thracians and of Turk-Bulgaria. Unfortunately some modern Macedonians, despite the thousands of years of historical testimonies on their behalf, including those of the ancient Macedonians, behave like “glupaci”. Why refuse something that historically belongs to you? Why not be proud that you are a descendent of the ancient and Slavic civilizations, which are a synthesis of thousands of years of tradition?



Ancient Macedonia was not afraid to assimilate other ethnicities and adopt their cultures in the same way today's America adopts other ethnicities, cultures, technologies worldwide and sells them or imposes them right back to the world as American.



Americans do not question how many of themselves are European, Asian, African or local, but simply consider themselves to be Americans. Someone once said: America is a great nation. The difference between a great and a small nation is not measured in quantity but rather in spirit. Did the ancient Macedonians number in the millions to have created such a great empire? No!



The problem with some modern Macedonians today is their lack of understanding of their own values. Instead of accepting the view of how others see them, they should be looking at themselves and accept that they are a product of their own environment, of Macedonia. There are people, not only today but all through the centuries, who have deliberately tried to tear apart Macedonia’s continuity leaving people feeling powerless and without support. Because of the many years of such torment and the false values instilled in them, Macedonians today do not share a strong unity, a strong bond and tend to take the road to compromises. But if we are to survive we cannot compromise on something that identifies and defines not only who we are today but who we were for thousands of years and who we will be for many thousands of years to come. A compromise with Europe today is equivalent to taking the path to our self-imposed demise. A compromise will lead to our inevitable death!



While we are still alive and our culture still exists, we need to fight and make necessary sacrifices but sacrifices that will lead to achieving our objectives. If we are willing to join the EU today at any price then we will pay nothing, but our future generations inevitably will suffer. But who cares about them anyway. Right?



It is important for us to enter the EU but if we don’t pay the price today we will be paying for it in the future. The European Commission has recommended that a date be set during the December 7th, 2009 EU Council session for starting negotiations for Macedonia’s entry into the EU but there are conditions attached to this and one of those conditions is that we need to “compromise” on our name. There is nothing in this recommendation that says our entry into the EU is guaranteed if we “compromise” on our name. In other words our country’s name must change before we enter negotiations and this is without any guarantee that we will not be asked to compromise later on other things like our identity, language, etc. This is like going to a bank and investing all your money into an investment that has no return guarantees, an unspecified term, an unknown interest rate and no guarantee that you will ever recover your initial investment. Who in their right mind is prepared to enter into such a deal? An idiot perhaps?



So why should we be such “idiots” when it comes to taking care of our nation and state?



The date to start negotiations for entering the EU does not guarantee that our attempt to enter the EU will be successful despite any sacrifices we are willing to make. Optimistically if we start negotiating in 2010 we will not be eligible to enter the EU until 2018. Even if we consider EU envoy Fouere’s recent estimates, we will not qualify in 4 to 5 years. So has anyone thought of how many chapters we will need to open, fill and close, the items that we will need to be harmonized with, the thousands of pages of documents we will need to write and the number of “compromises” we will be asked to make before these negotiations are over? And to top it all, any of the 27 EU members can dictate their terms and can veto any of our demands at any time during the negotiating process. But even if there is a small chance that we make it out of the negotiations, there is also that dreaded final vote during the ratification process when “someone” can again veto our entry. This is much like the "Story of scale" by Christo Smirnenski. With each step taken towards the EU the Republic of Macedonia and the Macedonian people will lose part of their identity until there is nothing left! Do not for a moment be fooled that Greece “accidentally” picked the name as the only “initial compromise”. This is the first stage of many compromises, a trap from which there is no escape. Next comes reaching a “compromise” on the identity. Do not think for a moment that the opening chapter of "justice" is not tilted in favour of the Bulgarians and Greeks and that they failed to seek changes to the judicial system in their favour. It is no accident that Greece did not include “negotiating the Macedonian identity” in the first stages of the EU negotiations. Reaching an agreement on the “name” will open the way for the Greeks to make other claims and more demands, particularly during the crucial parts of the negotiations with the EU.



The Bulgarians too have been deferring their demands until Macedonia is locked in negotiations with the EU. In other words, what we foresee as “negotiations” today may not be exactly what we end up with at the end, and the way things are shaping there may be no Macedonia or Macedonian identity at all by then. Macedonia will become a faceless and nameless territory. This, however, is still only one side of the coin. If Macedonia does by some miracle manage to “negotiate” its way into the EU, perhaps by 2018 or 2020, then what will the European Union or even the Balkans look like by then? A decade would have passed and the world would not be the same. Macedonia can’t afford to wait and waste away an entire decade “negotiating” while it has other options available.



Some time ago I wrote and predicted that Russia would soon begin to make its way back to the Balkans, including to Macedonia, first economically and then militarily. While visiting Belgrade, Russian President Medvedev made mention that Russia was prepared to economically support Serbia with a billion dollar loan which it expects to be paid back with interest. Don’t be surprised if, in order to protect its investment, Russia builds a military base near Nish. This would also be a check on American expansion into Romania and Bulgaria.



The struggle for power between Russia and the United States in the Balkans did not cease even after the super powers became allies. This competition for economic dominance, with time, will intensify and Turkey will become the arbiter in the Balkans.



The situation in Bosnia however is a bit more complicated because representatives of the international community (who are mostly Europeans) are powerless to resolve the interethnic conflict there. The EU will remain powerless in the future in spite of having its own “president” because of its inability to act on important matters. It is obvious that today the EU is forced to make concessions for the Irish, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, etc. When will all this end? And to compensate for its weaknesses the EU continues to impose new conditions on its new candidate countries. Turkey is a country which has met all the set conditions. Why isn’t it welcomed to join the European Union? Does the EU fear that if such a state joins the EU it will be placed in a dependent position? How much better then Turkey were Bulgaria and Romania before they joined the EU?



But as the Turkish Davatoglu has indicated there are other things that Europeans should fear even more than Turkey’s supposed dependence on the EU and that is Turkey’s good relations with the United States and Russia, which are not connected with European interests in the Balkans. Both super powers are interested in a powerless EU.



In the backdrop of dynamic patterns, Serbian Balkan diplomacy is working very well. During the Turkish Prime Minister Abdullah Gul’s visit to Belgrade, the two countries agreed on a strategic partnership and this was done in spite of their differences on the question of Kosovo. During the occasion President Tadic reassured everyone that unresolved problems in the Balkans could only be solved by integrating the region into the EU. That means Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Albania and Croatia need to be admitted on mass and without any conditions, grades, or vetoes.



Unlike Davatoglu however, Tadic said nothing about the Balkans having “other options” other than joining the EU. But what does this mean? To understand what this means we need to look at the weekly Magazinpres and see what the famous Serbian foreign policy experts have to say. Among other things they say that "Romanians and Greeks are their true friends" and point to Bulgaria as Serbia’s greatest enemy. This is similar to the jokes made during the great wars, nicely paraphrased by Winston Churchill before World War II who said that if you want to select the winning side first determine which side Bulgaria will join and then join the opposite side.



From what was said above and from what is understood about the EU it is becoming clear that “time” is not working for the EU and the Bureaucrats in Brussels know that. It is precisely why the EU is pressuring the Republic of Macedonia and Greece to come to an agreement. They want a quick settlement between Macedonia and Greece because this dispute is like a hot chestnut in their back where the United States, Russia and Turkey are jockeying for power and influence. And because they find it difficult to get Greece to make concessions they make offers to Macedonia for rapid EU membership, which are far from the truth.



It may not be the intention of Brussels to destroy the Macedonian state and the Macedonian identity but is certainly the intention of Athens and Sofia. Unfortunately the EU has proven to be powerless to convince Greece and Bulgaria to abandon these ambitions, particularly after the Republic of Macedonia begins membership negotiations.



Greece, after its parliamentary elections, did somewhat change its rhetoric but only because Karamanlis’s verbal aggression brought many drawbacks to the Greek diplomacy on an international level. Now Papandreou will want to show that Greece is more flexible but at the same time will not deviate from its original stand with the Macedonian negotiators. Papandreou met with Gruevski and the Greek media only to trumpet the unmovable but softened position of Greece. The Macedonian media and politicians however did not fall for it because they saw Papandreou’s ploy for what it was, a change in maneuvers and nothing more.



Papandreou himself said Greece would not cross the "red line". Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs Minister Drucas, meanwhile, said that Athens has only one solution and that is a name with a geographically structured determinant with the term Macedonia for all purposes and uses. He also added that: "The name issue must be resolved before the EU opening of negotiations with Skopje". Is there anything different that Papandreou offered in comparison to Karamanlis?



In Bucharest, Greece successfully hid behind the "consensus" for NATO, but now it will have to get involved directly with the European Commission proposal. If it does that will be another issue for the court in The Hague to deal with. There is no doubt that a veto will create conflict between Greece and the EU. Not because the Europeans care about Macedonia but because it will ruin their interests in the Balkans. This will happen regardless of whether it’s good for Greece and Bulgaria or not. How this is handled will entirely depend on the Macedonian leadership. We should also not ignore the warning that came from Belgrade, Modest Koller director of the Moscow Information Agency "Ragnum” when he predicted that the disintegration of Macedonia is inevitable. A statement such as this is actually a “geopolitical wink” designed to create panic in politicians to force them to hop onto the last car of the European train.



Instead of panicking and hopping on the last car of a fast moving European train does it not make more sense to explore wider options and, for example, create a strategic partnership with Turkey and China? Is it a sin to do that? Unfortunately it seems that some ingenious politicians have already begun to weave strategic combinations for future membership in NATO and the EU.

The author is a university professor





Глупаци со претензии

Стефан Влахов Мицов

Во телефонски разговор со академик Блаже Ристовски пред неколку дена му признав дека не сум очекувал во Македонија да има толку многу глупаци. Притоа, глупаци со претензии. Ми се смачи да читам и да слушам во македонските медиуми полемики дали Македонците се Словени или Антички Македонци. И, кога владата ќе направи компромис за името на државата? Логично е такви прашања да развиваат непријателите на Р, Македонија кои сакаат таа да е бессилна и лесна за манипулирање. Не е нормално, значи, македонски политичари и новинари да го користат јазикот на грчката и бугарската пропаганда. Освен ако не прифатам дека свесно или од глупост станале дел од тие пропаганди. Излегува дека не е доволно да си Македонец, , па треба да се лепат дополнителни определби. Во практика станува збор за македонскиот идентитет- дали тој е од антиката или од средновековието до денес. Албанците немаат проблем да тврдат дека имаат континуитет од 5. 000 години. Грците го сметаат за нормално сфаќањето за 4. 000 годишен континуитет, а Романците - за 2. . 500 години. Бугарите, кои се турли- тава од околу стотина етноси, тврдат дека се наследници на Тракијците и на Турко-бугарите. Но, и на Словените. А, некои денешни Македонци се однесуваат како најголеми глупаци на Балканот. И покрај илјадагодишните историски сведоштва за античката македонска држава и за македонската самосвест на нејзиното население. Треба да си класичен идиот за да се откажуваш од нешто што историски ти припаѓа. Само такви луѓе наместо да се гордеат дека се наследници и на античката и на словенската цивилизација, дека се синтеза од илјадагодишни традиции, бегаат од својата суштина. Стравот да се изјасниш и барањето поддршка во поголема заедница е насилно култивиран кај Македонците во текот на столетија. Античкиот Македонец не се плашел да асимилира други етноси. Тие се претопувале во делови од него, го збогатувале. На ист начин денешниот Американец вшмукува во себе етноси, култури, технологии од целиот свет. И ги продава или ги наметнува во спротивна насока, назад во светот, веќе како американски. Американецот не си го поставува прашањето колкав дел од него е европски, колку азијски и африкански и колку локален, туку едноставно се смета за врв во цивилизациската синтеза. Некој ќе рече: Американците се голема нација. Разликата меѓу големите и малите нации не е во квантитетот туку во духот. Зарем Античките Македонци биле милиони што успеале да создадат толкава империја. Проблемот кај некои современи Македонци е во нарушувањето на нивниот вредносен систем. Наместо да ги восприемаат другите како дел од себе си тие се восприемаат себе како дел од нив. Тие луѓе се чувствуваат немоќни, затоа им требаат потпори. Проблемот со нивниот недостаток на животна способност престанува да биде личен кога се обидуваат да ги направат немоќни и останатите. Тоа веќе е престап бидејќи смислено го раскинуваат македонскиот континуитет низ вековите. И денес заради политички причини, се обидуваат да ги спротивстават Македонците едни на други. Сакаат да го невротизираат општеството и да предизвикаат хаос. Затоа само подвикнуваат- време е да направиме компромис, не можеме да не направиме компромис, Европа бара компромис од нас. Зафатени од самоуништувачки синдром, говорат со страст и патос за неизбежниот компромис. На сите нив ќе им кажам: Неизбежна е само смртта! Додека човек е жив, додека општеството е живо, може да се бори и да дава жртви, но и да ги постигне целите. Вие, значи, сакате да влезете во ЕУ без разлика на цената. Затоа што знаете дека нема да ја плаќате. Ќе страдаат идните генерации. Но, кому му е грижа за нив. За вас е важно „премиерот да не внесе во ЕУ“. Како да не „внесе“ - на послужавник како печени прасиња со јаболка во муцките и кисела зелка како гарнир?
По препораката на Европската комисија да биде определен датум за почеток на преговорите за ЕУ некои тукашни генијални мислители изродија нова глупост. Да биде направен компромис за името до заседанието на Советот на ЕУ на 7 декември. Со два збора - промена на името пред датумот за преговори. Тоа е исто како сега да побарам од тие мисловни титани да ми ги дадат сите спечалени пари со мое ветување дека од следната година ќе почнеме да се договараме по колку време би можел да им ги вратам. Не гарантирам дека ќе си ги повратат, туку дека евентуално можам да ги израдувам. Под такви услови ќе ми даде ли некој нешто? Да не се идиоти да го направат тоа?! А зошто треба да сме идиоти кога станува збор за нацијата и државата? Датумот за почеток на преговорите воопшто не гарантира колку ќе траат и дали ќе завршат успешно. Според оптимистичките податоци на европските претставници, ако во 2010 г. Р. Македонија ги почне преговорите тие може да завршат во 2018 г. Последниве денови претставникот на ЕУ Фуере даде уште пооптимистичка оценка: барем за 4-5 години. Вистина е дека нема ниту краен рок ниту цврсти гаранции за што и да е. Дали некој мисли колку преговарачки поглавја ќе треба да се отворат и да се затворат. И дека треба да се усогласат повеќе од 150. 000 страници документи. За време на целиот тој процес секоја од 27-те земји-членки може да стави вето, да диктира услови, да изрази незадоволство. Но, дури и ако сето тоа помине на крајното гласање и за време на ратификацијата некој може одново да стави вето. И се да отиде по ѓаволите. Тој преговарачки процес многу наликува на „Приказната за скалата“ од Христо Смирненски. На секое скалило кон ЕУ Р. Македонија да губи по нешто од својот идентитет. Да не мислите дека при отворањето на поглавјето „правосудство“, на пример, Бугарија и Грција ќе пропуштат да побараат промена на судскиот систем во нивна полза. Во поглавјето „образование“ промена на учебниците и учебните програми и т. н. Не случајно Грција одби да преговара во оваа етапа за македонскиот идентитет, туку само за името. Промената на името ќе отвори пат за другите грчки претензии за време на суштинските преговори за ЕУ. Бугарија веќе неколкукратно изјави официјално дека ќе ги истакне своите барања токму тогаш. Поинаку кажано, до крајот на преговорите Р. Македонија ќе се престори во територија без лице и содржина. Но, тоа е само едната страна на проблемот. Ајде сега да ја анализираме и т. н. оптимистичка варијанта. Да допуштиме дека за една деценија Р. Македонија успешно ќе ги заврши преговорите за членство и кон 2018- 2020 година ќе биде на прагот на ЕУ. Само што тогаш ниту Балканот ниту самата Европска унија ќе бидат она што се денес. Бидејќи по неколкугодишен застој на Балканот одново почнува да станува интересно и напрегнато. Пред некое време напишав дека Русија ќе почне да си ги враќа позициите тука, прво економски, а потоа- воено. Посетата на рускиот претседател Медведев на Белград подразбира и економски и воен момент. Една милијадра е голема сума дури и за Русија, а кога ги дава на заем на Србија значи дека таа е сигурна дека ќе си ги поврати со камата. Воената база крај Ниш е одговор на стоте милиони одделени од Американците за нивните бази во Романија и во Бугарија. Сите знаат дека дуелот меѓу Русија и САД на Балканот допрва престои, но како што уште тогаш посочив, арбитер ќе биде Турција. Ситуацијата во Босна се усложнува, затоа што претставниците на меѓународната заедница (и првенствено европските) се немоќни да ги разрешат меѓуетничките спротивставености таму. ЕУ и во иднина ќе остане немоќна, макар што ќе избере свој „претседател“. Во неа дејствуваат центрипетални сили кои што на крајот ќе ја погребаат. Очигледно е дека и денес таа е принудена да прави отстапки- ту на Ирска, ту на Чешка, а од Бугарија крена раце. И, своите слабости ги компензира со перчење пред државите кандидатки. Турција не е држава на која можеш да и поставуваш услови. Затоа за време на посетата на Босна турскиот министер за надворешни работи Давутоглу рече дека Османлиската империја треба да се воспостави. ЕУ стравува ако таа држава ја прими за членка дека ќе се стави во зависна положба. Но Даватоглу посочи, дека има и друг начин европејците да се чувствуваат уште поуплашени. Освен тоа Турција едновремено е уважувана и до САД и од Русија и тоа не е поврзано само со нивните интереси на Балканот. И двете супер сили се заинтересирани ЕУ да биде немоќна. Во заднината на динамичното балканско сиже српската дипломатија дејствува со забраздување и предухитрено. При посетата на турскиот премиер Абдула Ѓул на Белград двете држави се определија за стратешко партнерство. Независно од разликите по прашањето за Косово. А претседателот Тадиќ директно изјави дека нерешените проблеми на Балканот „можат да бидат решени единствено со интеграцијата на целиот регион во ЕУ“. Тоа значи Србија, Косово, Македонија, Албанија и Хрватска да бидат примени ан блок, без никакви услови, оценки, вета и т. н. За разлика од Даватоглу Тадиќ не беше толку дрзок да каже дека во спротивно Балканот има и друга варијанта. Но, тоа се подразбира. Продолжување на темата се случи во неделникот „Магазинпрес“ кој објави анализи на познати српски надворешно политички експерти. Тие изјавија дека „ Романците и Грците се нашите вистински пријатели“, а ја посочуваат Бугарија како најголем непријател на Србија. Дури на високо ниво се шегуваат дека ако за време на војна се колебаш која страна да ја фатиш „удри смело по Бугаринот и нема да погрешиш“. Всушност, тоа е парафраза на зборовите на Черчил пред Втората светска војна, дека ако сакаш да го избереш победничкиот сојуз види каде се определила Бугарија и приклучи се на нејзините противници. Како ехо од турската дипломатска активност во Сараево и во Белград прозвучи изјавата на заменик-претседателот на ДПС (партијата на Турците во Бугарија) Касим Дал: „Еден ден ДПС ќе управува со Бугарија самостојно“. Во контекст на сите тези, на прв поглед разнонасочни политички пораки, точна и навремена беше изјавата на премиерот Груевски пред македонската заедница во Австралија. Од дотука кажаното е јасно дека времето не работи за ЕУ. Бирократите во Брисел го знаат тоа и затоа прават притисок врз Р. Македонија и Грција. Тие сакаат брзо решавање на грчко- македонскиот спор и еден жежок костен помалку во нивниот заден двор каде маневрираат САД, Русија и Турција. И затоа што им е потешко да и наложат на грчката страна да направи отстапки ја ставаат на искушение Р. Македонија со брзо членство во ЕУ, што е далеку од вистината. Едно, заради тромавите европски институции, а најмногу заради Грција и Бугарија. Брисел нема за цел да ја уништи македонската држава или македонскиот идентитет. Тоа се амбиции на Атина и Софија. Но ЕУ нема сила да ги задолжи тие држави да се откажат од своите намери, ако Р. Македонија почне преговори за членство. По парламентарните избори Грција ја промени само реториката. Вербалната агресија на Караманлис им донесе многу негативности на Грците на меѓународен план. Сега Папандреу ќе сака да покаже дека не Грција, туку Р. Македонија е преговарач што не отстапува. Затоа Папандреу се сретна со Груевски, а грчките медиуми непрестојно трубат за „: омекнување“ на позицијата на Грција. И македонските медиуми и политичари се ловат на такви јадици. Бидејќи станува збор за промена на менаварот се гледа од зборовите на грчкиот претседател, според кој Грција „понуди се што имала да понуди за тоа прашање“. И на самиот Папандреу, дека Грција нема да ја премине „црвената линија“. Заменик министерот за надворешни работи министерот Друцас, пак, изјави дека за Атина единствено решение е конечно составно име со географска определба на терминот Македонија за сите цели и намени. И уште: „ Прашањето за името мора да биде решено пред и да помислиме на отворање на преговорите со Скопје“. Дали забележувате некаква разлика во споредба со Караманлис? Францускиот министер за надворешни работи Кушнер, замислете си, забележал променет начин од страна на Грција и тоа во зборовите на Друцас. Тие луѓе навистина не сметаат за ненормални. Што да се прави? Во прво време, исклучителна активност спрема Грција. Непрестајно покани за средби, за оценки, за дискусии, при што не ја поминуваме нашата „црвена линија“. Поточно двојната формула. Во Букурешт Грција успешно се сокри зад „консензусот“ за НАТО, но сега по предлогот на Европската комисија ќе треба директно да одигра. Ако каже „не“, тоа е уште еден аргумент за пред судот во Хаг. Освен тоа, ветото ќе создаде бранувања меѓу Грција и ЕУ. Не заради македонската држава, туку затоа што им ги провалува интересите на Балканот. Времето не работи за Грција и Бугарија. А дали ќе почне да работи за Македонија зависи од државниот врв. Не треба да го пренебрегнеме предупредувањето што дојде од Белград, од Модест Колеров, директор на московската информативна агенција „Рагнум“, дека распаѓањето на Македонија е неизбежно. Тоа всушност е геополитичко намигнување. Во такви моменти слабите политичари ги фаќа паника и почнуваат да мечтаат за последното купе, во последниот вагон на европскиот воз. Умните прават друго- ја компликуваат ситуацијата (на пример со стратегиско партнерство со Турција и Кина) и ги предизвикуваат другите да грешат. Генијалните политичари, пак, веќе почнале да плетат стратегиски комбинации за членство во идните варијанти на НАТО и ЕУ.

Авторот е универзитетски професор

[Pelister]

Macedonia does not need to be negotiating its Nationality to get into the E.U !

This action is reckless, and the E.U is OVERRATED !