Macedonia and NATO

[indigen]

The importance of national patience

Last month, I was interviewed by the Macedonian daily newspaper Nova Makedonija. The edited text of my interview was published in the Macedonian language. I reproduce here the full interview in English.

[...]

Greece refuses to admit that the negotiations are not only about the name, but also about the Macedonian identity. How could we resolve this problem with Greece, which is crucial for our integration into NATO and the EU and at the same time not lose our identity?

Macedonia must be patient. The Greek veto is not going to be lifted any time soon, but Macedonia cannot surrender to Greece without losing its identity. The Greek policy is to make the international community de-recognise the existence of a Macedonian nation, hence, it wants to force the Republic of Macedonia to adopt a name that turns ‘Macedonia’ into a geographic, rather than a national term. So long as Athens thinks it can bully Skopje into backing down, it’s going to try. And so long as the EU believes that Greece is more uncompromising than Macedonia, it will encourage Skopje, as the more reasonable side, to back down. That is the way the EU operates – it always rewards the stronger and more unreasonable side. So it doesn’t pay to be conciliatory.

I think it’s important, therefore, that Macedonia should not view membership of NATO and the EU as a shibboleth. Macedonia must accept that it won’t join either organisation soon, but that this is not the end of the world. It should try to achieve as many of the benefits of membership as it can, by forging a close economic and military relationship with the NATO and EU states, as well as with Russia and other countries. In the long run, Skopje must make both Athens and the EU realise that it isn’t going to back down, no matter how long it has to wait to join NATO and the EU. In the meantime, Macedonia has friends, and it isn’t going to collapse.

Are you an optimist that in the near future we could find a solution to the problem?

No. A solution depends upon the democratisation of Greece, and a shift in Greek political culture to one that is post-nationalist, rather than nationalist. It is a slow process, but it will happen eventually. We can compare this with Turkey’s attitude to the Armenian genocide: official Turkey still won’t recognise this genocide, but more and more educated Turkish citizens are willing to speak about it. Greece will gradually democratise, and as it does, educated Greeks will challenge the nationalist paradigm over Macedonia. Macedonians must be patient and accept that they must wait for democratic change to take place in their southern neighbour.

[....]

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2009/05/09/the-importance-of-national-patience/

[Risto the Great]

Hoare is not a Macedonian yet speaks well on behalf of them. Reconciliation based on the following points made by him is not unreasonable and in fact is inevitable in my opinion.

As for the question of ‘reconciliation’, this can only rightfully be based on justice, not on the capitulation of the weaker side to the stronger. The only just compromise between Greece and Macedonia would be along the following lines:

1) The Macedonian nation and language, and the Greek nation and language, exist. Anyone who says they do not is an anti-Macedonian or anti-Greek chauvinist.

2) Macedonia and Greece both have the right to call themselves what they want, and to define their national identities as they wish.

3) The people of the Republic of Macedonia, Greek Macedonia and Bulgarian Macedonia have an equal right to call themselves ‘Macedonian’ and to lay claim to the heritage of Ancient Macedonia and of Alexander the Great, if that is what they wish.

4) Greeks and Macedonians alike are descended from a mixture of ancient Macedonians, Slavs and others. The common ethnic heritage of the two nations should be stressed, not denied, by those seeking reconciliation.

5) The symbol at the start of this post – the Star of Vergina – is dear to both Greeks and Macedonians and belongs to them both. Two nations that love the same symbols and revere the same ancient historical figures should naturally be friends.

Anyone who calls themselves an ‘anti-nationalist’, irrespective of whether they are Greek or Macedonian, should have no difficulty subscribing to these principles.

I wonder if any Greeks anywhere feel the same way.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good question, doubtful of an answer though.

[Volk]

The greek love of Macedonia is based solely on the fact that they would lose it if they did not. We all know the history; genocide, settlement, repression, assimilation, appropriation...

[Rogi]

I completely support that position on reconciliation from Dr. Hoare that you have quoted there RTG.

If not for the stupidity and politics of the situation, most would find a lot of common cultural ground between Greeks and Macedonians, perhaps mostly due to our shared religion.

It is difficult to bring forth a mind shift on both sides toward that however, particularly when the situation continues to escalate as it is.

I am certain most Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia would support the above, perhaps less so among Macedonians in the Diaspora.

As for the Greeks, there is a slowly increasing number of them (in Greece, very rarely among their Diaspora) who also want to focus on reconciliation between our people, rather than angst and animosity, they are yet to gain more influence than the ones who believe in the zero-sum game.

Unfortunately, the current and past Greek Governments have also played this zero-sum game which led us to where we are now.

[George S.]

I like the quote that no one has a right to call someone that they are not:
There is no such modern ethnic group as the ‘Slavs’ – ‘Slavs’ do not exist as an ethnic group in the modern world, any more than do Angles, Saxons, Franks, Gauls, Visigoths or Vikings. ‘Slavic’ is a linguistic, not an ethnic category. The Macedonians speak a Slavic language, and in that sense they are ‘Slavic’, just as the English and Dutch are ‘Germanic’ and the Italians and French are ‘Latin’. Greek nationalists demanding that the Macedonians call themselves ‘Slavs’ is like someone demanding that the English and Dutch call themselves ‘Germanics’ or that the Italians and French call themselves ‘Latins’. It is up to the Macedonians alone whether they feel their identity to be ‘Slavic’ or not – nobody else has the right to impose such an identity on them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Lol, I was just flicking through the channels and came across the Greek station ERT, and the first thing I see is fat Karaman in Kozhani with all the Vlachs waiving their flags, hahahaha, in the first few words he says something which includes "Makedones"................I thought, how ironic, one anti-Macedonian Grkoman to a thousand anti-Macedonian Grkomans, all claiming to be "Makedones"....lol.

And the very next scene is Papandreou in Iraklion, and all you can hear him say is "Ellinides, "Ellinides".........ah the irony.....why not "Kritinides"? Why is the distinction made only Macedonian regions? Insecurity?

[Pantaleon]

Lol, I was just flicking through the channels and came across the Greek station ERT, and the first thing I see is fat Karaman in Kozhani with all the Vlachs waiving their flags, hahahaha, in the first few words he says something which includes "Makedones"................I thought, how ironic, one anti-Macedonian Grkoman to a thousand anti-Macedonian Grkomans, all claiming to be "Makedones"....lol.

i am not a fan of fat boy but how can u call a Macedonian a.. anti-Macedonian? LOL

afterall he is failing so is trying to get from his region as many votes as he can

And the very next scene is Papandreou in Iraklion, and all you can hear him say is "Ellinides, "Ellinides".........ah the irony.....why not "Kritinides"? Why is the distinction made only Macedonian regions? Insecurity?

Soldier, that logic of urs doesnt make sence, i think u made a quick conclusion here.. he can call them by their ciry name, area or nationality so what? I am sure if u watch the whole clip he calls them as Cretans as well. its possible the event was live on TV and he addressed the nation from Crete. so what?

no distinctions are made..

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am not a fan of fat boy but how can u call a Macedonian a.. anti-Macedonian? LOL

Macedonian? LOL, yeah, in Greece's fantasy setting of reality only. Come on Pantaleon, are you going to compare the Greek geographical descriptor with the national/ethnic/linguistic identity of my Macedonian people? I couldn't care about his warped sentiments so save the tirade of why Karaman thinks he is Macedonian, he is anything but Macedonian, and he works tirelessly AGAINST the Macedonian nationality, ethnicity, language, etc.

As for the chants of 'Makedones' and 'Ellinides', just reporting what I saw mate, just found it funny that Ellinides is fine for one area but in the prosfiga-breeding fields of Macedonia 'Makedones' has to continually be drummed in by that fat dog, lol.

[Pantaleon]

Macedonian? LOL, yeah, in Greece's fantasy setting of reality only. Come on Pantaleon, are you going to compare the Greek geographical descriptor with the national/ethnic/linguistic identity of my Macedonian people?

each side has its own opinion, facts, arguments and truths on this issue. in time i hope it is resolved in all fairness. we all should move on, we are missing the great advantages and potential of both sides beeing friends.

I couldn't care about his warped sentiments so save the tirade of why Karaman thinks he is Macedonian, he is anything but Macedonian, and he works tirelessly AGAINST the Macedonian nationality, ethnicity, language, etc.

dont judge what or where the other person is from due to the surname becuse if you do, u might unitentionally offend compatriots of yours.

Based on your logic Karamanlis is not the only one working tirelessly AGAINST the Macedonian nationality, ethnicity, language, etc, but obviously Greece/Greeks as well. But how can this be so?

1. Bulgaria doesnt recognise YOUR existance as a different ethnic group!
including ur history language and etc. Albanians all together are digging a big hole under you. Afterall u had a civil war with your compatriot Ablanians who are between 16%-28% of the population)

But Greeks do recognize you are a different Ethnos, with its language & culture. We disagree with the name & some historic facts which can be resolved.

Bassed on the above i would like to ask you why do you hate us more than the Albanians & the Bulgarian who are indeed the real threats to your nation's existance? How is Greece a bigger threat to you than the others?

As for the chants of 'Makedones' and 'Ellinides', just reporting what I saw mate, just found it funny that Ellinides is fine for one area but in the prosfiga-breeding fields of Macedonia 'Makedones' has to continually be drummed in by that fat dog, lol.

Soldier what u noticed isnt true. Ellines & Ellinides and/or area names are used equally everywhere and it doesnt matter if one or other is used.for example i dont think it makes a difference if Gruevski in a speech adreesses Bitolans as Macedonians and a few days later starts a speech in Gevgeli by saying "my dear Gevgelians! blablabla" or something. Same thing

[Risto the Great]

Soldier what u noticed isnt true. Ellines & Ellinides and/or area names are used equally everywhere and it doesnt matter if one or other is used.for example i dont think it makes a difference if Gruevski in a speech adreesses Bitolans as Macedonians and a few days later starts a speech in Gevgeli by saying "my dear Gevgelians! blablabla" or something. Same thing

I genuinely feel the Macedonian name is used in a different way than the regional other identifiers. A claim of glory nowadays if you will.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Pantaleon, the geographic-macedonian identity is cited much more than the rest in Greece for obvious political reasons, no such 'phenomena' exists in the Macedonian state.

each side has its own opinion, facts, arguments and truths on this issue.

The truth is that my people identify their 1) country, 2) nation, 3) ethnicity, 4) culture and 5) language as Macedonian. Anywhere in the world I am free and accepted to express my native Macedonian identity, except Greece.

The truth is that your people identify the same 5 points as Greek. The truth is that there is a Macedonian region within today's Greek borders, and the Macedonian name in Greece is therefore a geographic identity.

.........dont judge what or where the other person is from due to the surname

Please mate, you're not dealing with some bananas on other forums from the past, I made no such assertion, so don't look for smoke where there is no fire. Karaman is my nickname for the non-Macedonian geographic-macedonian moron who is one of the greatest anti-Macedonians in the world.

Based on your logic Karamanlis is not the only one working tirelessly AGAINST the Macedonian nationality, ethnicity, language, etc, but obviously Greece/Greeks as well.

No, based on your logic, not mine. My logic says that people who call themselves, their language, their culture, their ethnicity and everything else as Macedonian, are Macedonians. My logic says that people who live in a region of a country that is called Macedonia, are 'geographic-macedonians'.

What does your logic say?

Bulgaria doesnt recognise YOUR existance as a different ethnic group...........Albanians all together are digging a big hole under you.........Greeks do recognize you are a different Ethnos....We disagree with the name.....

Wow, I guess if we can get the blessing of all three of you together then we will be allowed to freely express ourselves in an identity, state and language that you guys can collectively choose? Lol, no thanks, we don't really care what you guys decide for us, we will decide for us. All three of you, Greeks, Bulgars and Albanians, have origins and histories that are questionable and can be disputed. The only difference is, we Macedonians haven't wasted our earlier years trying to attack and supress our neighbours' identities, but we are now striking back now, vehemently.

Bassed on the above i would like to ask you why do you hate us more than the Albanians & the Bulgarian.....

Don't generalise on my behalf, I don't hate your people, I dislike people who deny my right to identify as a Macedonian, even though that is the only identity my family and people have for their language, culture, ethnicity, etc. You should ask yourself, why are there so many people that fall into this category, that happen to be Greek?

For your information, I see the racists among Greeks as no different to the racists among Bulgars, Albanians, Serbs and the rest, they are all a pathetic bunch of sadist animals. Thankfully, not all Greeks are racists, at least I think not as I have good Greek friends that don't behave like some of the racist psycho's one comes across on the internet, perhaps your presence here can further prove that, and possibly that most Greeks aren't racist like this.

[Pantaleon]

Pantaleon, the geographic-macedonian identity is cited much more than the rest in Greece for obvious political reasons, no such 'phenomena' exists in the Macedonian state.

dont forget Macedonia is the second biggest region in Greece. Thessaloniki is the second biggest city. so it is natural Macedonia & Macedonians to be often in the spotlight.

as for Karamanlis he has been many times recently in Thessaloniki to try to sweeten the Macedonians in any way he can as he is desperately trying to hold ND's strong base of voters all over northern Greece and specifically in Macedonia.

Also in the beginning of September the big annual exhebition took place and it is a time all parties gather in Thessaloniki to publicise their agenda. Especially the government. Macedonians always find this time ideal to express their dissapointment & concerns on Karamanli's soft stance in the "name dispute" with your country & of course publically complain about the cronic problem of little investment in the region.

The truth is that my people identify their 1) country, 2) nation, 3) ethnicity, 4) culture and 5) language as Macedonian. Anywhere in the world I am free and accepted to express my native Macedonian identity, except Greece.

But the few hundreds maybe thousands in Northern Greece that belive they are ethnic Macedonian, dont seem to have a problem saying what they are. Even on TV they do. You are safer in Greece than me going into the Republic. Or i might be wrong, who knows maybe i am a victim of the perseption that Greeks are not welcome in the Republic of Macedonia.

Dont worry you will be free in Greece anyway. You can claim to be whatever u want. But of course you have to consider the Greeks sencitivity when refer to your ethnic identity with the name Macedonia(n). But even if you do, in most cases you will be ignored.
Many of your compatriots visit or work in Greece and dont seem to have problems. I met a few this summer in Chalkidiki. Nice people and seem to be much more open minded than your diaspora.

Karaman is my nickname for the non-Macedonian geographic-macedonian moron who is one of the greatest anti-Macedonians in the world.

good nickname!

nevertheless, he is Macedonian

No, based on your logic, not mine. My logic says that people who call themselves, their language, their culture, their ethnicity and everything else as Macedonian, are Macedonians. My logic says that people who live in a region of a country that is called Macedonia, are 'geographic-macedonians'.

What does your logic say?

well if we didnt have a different logic, we would probably have a different type of conversations wouldnt we ?

Wow, I guess if we can get the blessing of all three of you together then we will be allowed to freely express ourselves in an identity, state and language that you guys can collectively choose? Lol, no thanks, we don't really care what you guys decide for us, we will decide for us. All three of you, Greeks, Bulgars and Albanians, have origins and histories that are questionable and can be disputed. The only difference is, we Macedonians haven't wasted our earlier years trying to attack and supress our neighbours' identities, but we are now striking back now, vehemently.

well we dont know abou Bulgaria and Albania, we have our own opinion on the subject. When we had these issues with your country they were sleeping. But lately all you neibours seem to have different issues with you. i guess the plan "we are now striking back now, vehemently" isnt working very well?

Don't generalise on my behalf, I don't hate your people, I dislike people who deny my right to identify as a Macedonian, even though that is the only identity my family and people have for their language, culture, ethnicity, etc.

by using the word YOU i dont mean yourself. Sorry if i made it seem so.

You should ask yourself, why are there so many people that fall into this category, that happen to be Greek?

Greeks in the majority dont hate you Soldier. They feel robbed
as i said in my previous post worse enemies..




images are from a1.com.mk

[Soldier of Macedon]

dont forget Macedonia is the second biggest region in Greece. Thessaloniki is the second biggest city. so it is natural Macedonia & Macedonians to be often in the spotlight.

as for Karamanlis he has been many times recently in Thessaloniki to try to sweeten the Macedonians in any way he can as he is desperately trying to hold ND's strong base of voters all over northern Greece and specifically in Macedonia.

Also in the beginning of September the big annual exhebition took place and it is a time all parties gather in Thessaloniki to publicise their agenda. Especially the government. Macedonians always find this time ideal to express their dissapointment & concerns on Karamanli's soft stance in the "name dispute" with your country & of course publically complain about the cronic problem of little investment in the region.

Geographic-macedonian, nothing more.

good nickname!

nevertheless, he is Macedonian

Geographic-macedonian, nothing more.

But lately all you neibours seem to have different issues with you. i guess the plan "we are now striking back now, vehemently" isnt working very well?

Lately? Our neighbours have behaved like greedy dogs towards Macedonia and the Macedonians since the 19th century. The plan of striking back is working well, the world is hearing our side too, the world knows we exist, everything is working out fine. Are you trying to scare-monger? Like Macedonia should run to Greece for help? Lol.....get real mate.

Greeks in the majority dont hate you Soldier. They feel robbed

That's funny, the robber crying foul, lol, what have Macedonians robbed from Greeks? Come on, I am waiting for a reference to ancient history that will demonstrate your continued 4000 years of lineage, and how we "stole" it.


And what was the purpose of posting those pictures? I can find you dozens of similar photos and youtube videos where Greeks are burning Macedonian flags, what does that mean, that your people are as animal as the racist Albanian next to you?

[Volk]

Macedonians always find this time ideal to express their dissapointment & concerns on Karamanli's soft stance in the "name dispute" with your country & of course publically complain about the cronic problem of little investment in the region.

Here's a great example of greek logic; by your theory, Macedonians cannot be called that because they are 'slavs' that have been here for 1400 years, yet in less than two generations the christian turk settlers in Aegean Macedonia are now the 'real' Macedonians.

oh boy...