Zaev hints at referendum on name

[Skolovranec]

I think all the suggestions will include a name that doesn't compromise the identity of Macedonians. Something like FYROM is a familiar name and is the ace up any clever Macedonian's sleeve.

I'm hoping to enter politics soon.

Anything outside just Macedonia/Republic of Macedonia is already a compromise on the identity. IMO any clever Macedonian would know that.

I've been thinking the same thing myself. I see no political party in Macedonia, big or small, that has an actual anti-NATO & anti-EU position, and was thinking to start one just for the sake of diversity of political thought, and to give people who share the same views a voting option. Even if the party's core ideals are just those - No NATO and no EU. Or at least, those could be the starting tenets, and later the party could further on the principles and agenda.

I've been holding back so far since I'm not as well versed in politics as many others are, especially here, and I'm not even familiar with basic political theory, I haven't finished college yet, I have no idea about how the registration process works and how hard it would be to build a party from scratch (judging by others who entered politics in recent times, it's a fucking hell). But maybe it would be worthwhile?

I've been meaning to suggest active members here to consolidate to a single party too, as everybody entering the forums basically cares for this country and swears by the Macedonian Cause. That could be the guiding light for the party. And as a party you'd have more leverage to affect the political landscape than just petitions, voting, or complaining about the situation of the country here.

I feel that if there ever was a right time for this - it's now, when there's political niche missing in Macedonian politics' "Tree of Life", which actually wants to prevent the deteriorating path the country has taken and undo as much of the damage as possible that was already dealt to it. I'd be the first to sign up!

I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

We can complain on this forum about lack of initiative or action in Macedonian politicians or we can enter the game and show some initiative and action ourselves. Maybe I'm too young and naive still, but what's the alternative? Watch the ship sink?

[Phoenix]

Because MINA is a government agency. Need I say more?

MINA has hardly posted a story for several weeks now, they claimed that they were in the process of moving to new premises.

What sort of half-arsed move was it that doesn't allow them to post stories...or is it a matter of now finding suitable 'journalists' that will tow a new government line.

In regards to the wider Macedonian/Balkan media industry, it's interesting that the previously voracious topics have almost disappeared as if they never existed(?), topics such as:

- The Jess Baily Investigation (US Deep State role)
- SPO Powers/Political Bias/SDSM Influence
- ZZ: Macedonia's Existential Threat

Funny how some of these more 'popular' articles have rarely seen the light of day since the new government has assumed power.

It's one of the sad realities of the media in Macedonia, in all of those stories I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the 'middle' but you'd never know it because the media in Macedonia is so heavily government influenced that 'stories' are thrown into a vat and spun at such high speed (government spin) that they get pushed to the governing parties political periphery by the act of centrifugal force...and this becomes the new 'reality'.

[DraganOfStip]

MINA has hardly posted a story for several weeks now, they claimed that they were in the process of moving to new premises.

What sort of half-arsed move was it that doesn't allow them to post stories...or is it a matter of now finding suitable 'journalists' that will tow a new government line.

In regards to the wider Macedonian/Balkan media industry, it's interesting that the previously voracious topics have almost disappeared as if they never existed(?), topics such as:

- The Jess Baily Investigation (US Deep State role)
- SPO Powers/Political Bias/SDSM Influence
- ZZ: Macedonia's Existential Threat

Funny how some of these more 'popular' articles have rarely seen the light of day since the new government has assumed power.

It's one of the sad realities of the media in Macedonia, in all of those stories I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the 'middle' but you'd never know it because the media in Macedonia is so heavily government influenced that 'stories' are thrown into a vat and spun at such high speed (government spin) that they get pushed to the governing parties political periphery by the act of centrifugal force...and this becomes the new 'reality'.

Exactly.
The new government is currently too busy assigning new ministers, deputies, directors etc etc, but soon enough it will be MINA's turn to be "reformed".
By then, the MINA employees will have 2 choices: change their tune in favor of the new government or be replaced with more "suitable" journalists that will follow SDS lines.
Either way, as you said MINA has started to adapt to it's new power source and I have no doubt that pretty soon we'll start seeing their articles attacking Grujo while glorifying Zajko at the same time.

[VMRO]

Anything outside just Macedonia/Republic of Macedonia is already a compromise on the identity. IMO any clever Macedonian would know that.

I've been thinking the same thing myself. I see no political party in Macedonia, big or small, that has an actual anti-NATO & anti-EU position, and was thinking to start one just for the sake of diversity of political thought, and to give people who share the same views a voting option. Even if the party's core ideals are just those - No NATO and no EU. Or at least, those could be the starting tenets, and later the party could further on the principles and agenda.

I've been holding back so far since I'm not as well versed in politics as many others are, especially here, and I'm not even familiar with basic political theory, I haven't finished college yet, I have no idea about how the registration process works and how hard it would be to build a party from scratch (judging by others who entered politics in recent times, it's a fucking hell). But maybe it would be worthwhile?

I've been meaning to suggest active members here to consolidate to a single party too, as everybody entering the forums basically cares for this country and swears by the Macedonian Cause. That could be the guiding light for the party. And as a party you'd have more leverage to affect the political landscape than just petitions, voting, or complaining about the situation of the country here.

I feel that if there ever was a right time for this - it's now, when there's political niche missing in Macedonian politics' "Tree of Life", which actually wants to prevent the deteriorating path the country has taken and undo as much of the damage as possible that was already dealt to it. I'd be the first to sign up!

I just hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears.

We can complain on this forum about lack of initiative or action in Macedonian politicians or we can enter the game and show some initiative and action ourselves. Maybe I'm too young and naive still, but what's the alternative? Watch the ship sink?

I think you have been going to their old site.

here is the new one

www.minareport.com

[VMRO]

Exactly.
The new government is currently too busy assigning new ministers, deputies, directors etc etc, but soon enough it will be MINA's turn to be "reformed".
By then, the MINA employees will have 2 choices: change their tune in favor of the new government or be replaced with more "suitable" journalists that will follow SDS lines.
Either way, as you said MINA has started to adapt to it's new power source and I have no doubt that pretty soon we'll start seeing their articles attacking Grujo while glorifying Zajko at the same time.

Are we talking about the same Mina, because as of late they've been anti both SDS and DPNE.

It;s hard to determine if the people behind it are real journalists because their team information fictitious.

http://www.minareport.com/team/

[Skolovranec]

I think you have been going to their old site.

here is the new one

And I think you quoted the wrong person/post.

[DraganOfStip]

Are we talking about the same Mina, because as of late they've been anti both SDS and DPNE.

It;s hard to determine if the people behind it are real journalists because their team information fictitious.

I only know of one MINA, website http://macedoniaonline.eu/.
Didn't know they have a new website. The old website ran as a DPMNE propaganda outlet, and from your link to their new website I can only spot one article that is critical to DPMNE and SDS, all the rest are pro-DPMNE articles.
Yes, their team is fake, Chilimanov is a part of MINA but is not even mentioned there. Haven't heard of any of those "journalists" before.

[VMRO]

And I think you quoted the wrong person/post.

Apologies.

[VMRO]

I only know of one MINA, website http://macedoniaonline.eu/.
Didn't know they have a new website. The old website ran as a DPMNE propaganda outlet, and from your link to their new website I can only spot one article that is critical to DPMNE and SDS, all the rest are pro-DPMNE articles.
Yes, their team is fake, Chilimanov is a part of MINA but is not even mentioned there. Haven't heard of any of those "journalists" before.

It's a dogs breakfast.

[Phoenix]

I only know of one MINA, website http://macedoniaonline.eu/.
Didn't know they have a new website. The old website ran as a DPMNE propaganda outlet, and from your link to their new website I can only spot one article that is critical to DPMNE and SDS, all the rest are pro-DPMNE articles.
Yes, their team is fake, Chilimanov is a part of MINA but is not even mentioned there. Haven't heard of any of those "journalists" before.

+1

The "MINA" website is still running, they rarely update any Macedonia related stories but their world section keeps ticking over with new stuff...

[DraganOfStip]

I have to correct myself, I always thought that MINA (Macedonian International News Agency) was the English edition of the government agency MIA (Macedonian Information Agency), while in fact they're not connected at all. After doing some research it turns out they're completely different outlets, Chilimanov is an editor in MIA and not MINA as I had assumed.
MIA has already changed it's tune (http://www.mia.mk/en), while MINA is the same old DPMNE propaganda machine even on their new site (with exception of one article that I could find).

[Opinci]

I see that the name-change the Greeks are offering is ‘Vardar Macedonia’. I personally thought this was a good and viable peace-offering. I put it to my dad who went nuts. His response was utterly ridiculous and I detected that he is:
1. Opposed in principle to a name change- so nothing will satisfy him; and,
2. the idea of a name change is, for him, inextricably linked to Greece humiliating Macedonia.
My father is not thinking at all practically about this issue, rather he is thinking of it all in symbolic terms. I think the Macedonians, in a referendum, will vote pragmatically not symbolically. It will boil down to who thinks they will benefit being in the EU, and will thus vote pragmatically for a name change, versus those who think they will not benefit by Macedonia joining the EU, which they’ll then post-fact rationalise via arguments about the humiliation of a name change our mortal enemies, Greece, are foisting on us.
It’s a tragic tale. I think a referendum will be held and it is a foregone conclusion that it will pass and Macedonia, next year some time, will be called Vardar Macedonia. The referendum is a mere formality. They will put into place fail-safes so that some falsification will take place to get it over the required threshold- if they do not reach it naturally, which I think is highly likely to be achieved anyway.
There is too much riding geopolitically on this name-change, and a consolidation of NATO control of the Balkans, to let this name-change issue continue to be a stumbling block to the western powers to leave it to some pensioner-age types fixated on some symbolic, largely imagined, vendettas. America carpet bombs countries to get their way, killing hundreds of thousands, so a small falsification of a name-change referendum is a walk in the park for them.
What I did find strange, however, was how my dad was blinded by rage and hatred for the Greeks, who he insisted are humiliating us. I was attempting- without any measure of success whatsoever- to point out that Vardar Macedonia was precisely how we referred to our country ANYWAY, in all historical mentions of the partitioned Macedonia, which is comprised of the Pirinska and Egejska parts. He would avoid the issue and argue it was insulting. Obviously he isn’t part of the solution, rather he is the problem.
The generational divide that partitioned Ukraine into east and west, rendering it a failed and bankrupt nation that’ll face years of civil war, as NATO ramps up its war there, is precisely the type of generational divide that Macedonia faces. The young age-groups will vote to join the EU, and thus for a name-change, while the older people will vote to stay out of the EU and keep the name Macedonia, for heaven forbid someone calls us Vardar- as we do anyway.
In the Ukraine the young, western-located people voted to join the EU, while the older, eastern-located population voted to remain outside of the EU and wanted closer ties to Russia. The latter knew Russian, had worked in the old, industrialised parts and had a fondness for Russia. Then all hell broke loose when Viktor Yanukovych decided not to join the EU. Shortly thereafter he was whisked out of the country and joined Edward Snowdon in exile in Russia while his people were traipsing about in his private residences, reminiscent of the rampaging into the parliament in Macedonia.

Recently they showed Gruevski’s 600k ‘tank’ limousine. Those excesses reminded me of Yanukovych’s lake, zoo and boat. LMAO incidentally, Yanukovych’s boat reminds me of the boat-restaurants on Vardar, in Skopje.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Personal_excesses

The same transformation process implemented in Ukraine was orchestrated in Macedonia. The colour revolution.

I think what is being missed in this name-change debate is the genuine scope, the parameters, the frame of reference of this situation.

The problem is not:
1. As my dad sees it, that the Greeks are humiliating us by changing our name; but, rather, the problem is,
2. That if Macedonia does not join the EU and NATO VERY SOON, that the Western powers- via their proxies in Saudi Arabia (via their proxies in Montenegro, Bosnia, Kosovo)- will launch an ISIS campaign to destabilise Macedonia (just as is happening in Syria) and then carve out the north-western region of Macedonia to stitch it to Kosovo and Albania (in an expansionist project) while destabilising Skopje, thus turning Macedonia, overnight, into a failed state. This is required by the west to geopolitically isolate, surround Russia- the only competent state antagonising US global hegemony- to then bring Russia into a protracted multi-decade project of military armament (which Russia cannot afford) and low-level money-sapping conflict that’ll bankrupt Russia and finish it off for good.
In that situation- the tectonic geopolitical machinations- the name-change hardly resonates for the major players, except as a thorn in their side, which if not resolved peacefully will DEFINITELY be resolved forcefully. So it is an situation that is LITERALLY an issue of existential survival for the nation state of Macedonia. Changing the name to Vardar Macedonia will seem like a fantasy everyone will be begging to return to- should they be criminally foolish and suicidal not to adopt it- but it’ll be a distant dream in the rear-view mirror once the Saudis unleash their proxy ISIS army. Ali Ahmeti and company will be the FIRST ones ISIS guns for, so forget the ethnic Macedonians, they’re toast, and Russia isn’t coming because Russia has PEANUTS to offer. So it’s either name-change or war. Everyone else missing this frame of reference is KIDDING THEMSELVES HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just look to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Ukraine, Yemen, Qatar- and some African countries, which are off the radar, for us, but very-much on the radar for the US who is meddling there, too. It’s either a name-change or a country-change. Zaev was the regime-change, via a soft-coup. But if you want otherwise, it means war.
Finally, on a corollary point, if you are sitting in a western nation, spinning shit, and not going to be shooting the bullets when this war comes- if the US cannot bring Macedonia into NATO/EU via a name-change referendum- then stop being an arm-chair hero and urging a holding onto a mythical, largely fabricated, symbolism. Vardar Macedonia is a FANTASTIC offer and the Macedonians LIVING IN Macedonia should seize it with both hands and avoid war. If you want to wage some stupid diplomatic war with the Greeks, get ready to fight a ballistic war with the jihadis that are ALL-TOO-READY to come to the Balkans, once they’re given the green light, because their Syria caliphate failed (Russia nailed them, Obama didn’t send in the army to help them out- as Romney would have done), Trump is busy MAGA, while taking heat in 5 impeachment-oriented investigations by his own intelligence agencies, so he WON’T GIVE A SHIT about Saudis green-lighting a jihadi coup in Macedonia. The caliphate in Macedonia so far is only Talat Jaferi, sitting in a suit, in the parliament. But it could be some random nobody blowing the place apart. Think before you urge symbolic and useless victories IF YOU’RE NOT WILLING TO FIGHT.

If you think that this referendum won’t be successful, then you simply haven’t been paying attention to US global hegemony and the way the planet is militarily aligned. The Greeks can’t veto anything if we change the name- they’re bankrupt and receiving handouts from the EU and have a failed state with a stratospheric suicide rate. Get a reality check. Beggars, quite literally, cannot be choosers. This applies EQUALLY to both neighbouring Balkan (constructed) states: Macedonia and Greece. They should learn to live together- they’re like two blacks fighting in the projects over food stamps. RIDICULOUS. This is another iteration of lame identity politics, like fundamentalist Christians versus gays/abortionists. Terrible, wasteful and plainly DUMB.

[DraganOfStip]

1) Where did you see the name Greeks are offering is Vardar Macedonia? Haven't encountered anything of the sort...
2) Not sure about the Albanians but I bet over 90% of ethnic Macedonians in the republic will vote AGAINST any name change if a referendum takes place. Saying that the majority of the young Macedonians will vote for a name change just so we can get in EU and NATO is based on... what exactly?
3) Saying Vardar Macedonia is a fantastic offer only shows you're either a) a Greek/Bulgar provocateur or b) a shame to your own nation.

[Risto the Great]

I'm sorry, I didn't bother reading after you mentioned your acceptance of a new name for me. I never came from Vardar Macedonia. I hope your father slapped you hard.

[Odi Zvezdo]

1) Where did you see the name Greeks are offering is Vardar Macedonia? Haven't encountered anything of the sort...
2) Not sure about the Albanians but I bet over 90% of ethnic Macedonians in the republic will vote AGAINST any name change if a referendum takes place. Saying that the majority of the young Macedonians will vote for a name change just so we can get in EU and NATO is based on... what exactly?
3) Saying Vardar Macedonia is a fantastic offer only shows you're either a) a Greek/Bulgar provocateur or b) a shame to your own nation.

He's right Dragan,

The Greeks have come out offering Vardar Macedonia as an option according to Greek Media Sources...

http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2017/06/17/politiki-pgdm-macedonia-athena-onoma_n_17182910.html?utm_hp_ref=politiki