Macedonians Storm Parliament

[vicsinad]

Zaev: Macedonia will not be a bi-national state and will not change its national symbols

http://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politika/zaev-makedonija-nema-da-bide-dvonacionalna-drzhava-i-nema-da-gi-smenam

„Република Македонија нема да биде двонационална држава, таа ќе си остане таква каква што е. Никој нема да налага туѓи интереси. Во однос на таканаречената тиранска платформа, таму се работи само за преговори меѓу политичките партии за формирање влада. Се што ќе прави владата ќе биде во интерес на сите граѓани и на Република Македонија.

Во декларацијата на албанските партии има и една спорна точка и ние јасно кажавме дека не се согласуваме со неа. Тие сакаат да започне дебата за државните симболи на Македонија, за знамето, грбот и химната. Ние не можеме да ги спречиме дебатите, но сме против таква промена. Исто е и за промената на уставното име на државата, Република Македонија. Но, тоа всушност е алиби на нашиот политички противник за да не ја предаде власта на новот парламентарно мнозинство“, вели Заев, додавајќи дека Македонија е се што има и нема да ги предава националните интереси.

[vicsinad]

While his statement makes his stance on the Tirana Platform clearer, he downplays the fact that the Albanian parties met with Rama, and also continues to say that the "CONSTITUTIONAL" name will not change, meaning that he's still open to changing it for purposes of UN, NATO, and EU.

[vicsinad]

Macedonia's former Speaker refuses to hand over his post

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-05/03/c_136251883.htm

SKOPJE, May 2 (Xinhua) -- Former Parliamentary Speaker Trajko Veljanovski declared Tuesday that he would not abdicate his post to newly-elected Speaker Talat Xhaferi, who was voted in last week by the SDSM-led coalition.

That Xhaferri was voted for by only the Socialist Democratic Union (SDSM) and the ethnic Albanian parties, which have a combined 67-seat majority in parliament, has angered VMRO-DPMNE supporters and protesters.

"We don't even know how many MPs (Members of Parliament) participated in the voting. There was no broadcast of the voting and the decision cannot even be registered in the official bulletin, which is a condition for it to become official. So, everything that has happened is illegitimate," Veljanovski argued.

Following his statement, the SDSM issued a press release calling on Veljanoski to vacate his office and allow Xhaferi to assume the position.

Stressing that Xhaferi was the new Speaker of Macedonia's Parliament, SDSM said Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov was duty bound to give the mandate to form a new government to SDSM President Zoran Zaev.

Meanwhile, VMRO-*DPMNE MPs held a meeting on Tuesday in the Parliamentary Speaker's office as a way of reaffirming its position that the election of new Speaker had been illegitimate.

However, DUI MP Artan Grubi told reporters Tuesday that Xhaferi had asked the Parliament's secretary-general to provide conditions for him to assume office.

According to Grubi, Xhaferi is the Speaker representing the will of the majority of citizens and added that DUI expected the new opposition should come to its senses.

The political deadlock in Macedonia continues as Ivanov has refused to give Zaev the mandate to form a government, arguing that Zaev's platform would lay the groundwork for a future partition of the country.

Nearly five months after a Dec. 11 parliamentary election, Macedonia's political class still hasn't been able to find a way out of the crisis.

The acceptance of ethnic Albanian parties platform by SDSM further deepened the crisis here while the stalemate reached a climax at last Thursday's plenary session when protesters entered parliament.

Around 100 people sought medical assistance after the protests turned violent. Among the injured were over 70 civilians, 22 police officers, and three members of parliament.

Protesters have been in the streets of Skopje for the past two months over the political situation in the country.

[Bill77]

Phoenix...... Thanks for your "Welcome back" comment my good friend.

Zaev: Macedonia will not be a bi-national state and will not change its national symbols

http://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politik...a-da-gi-smenam.

Vic..... Honestly, we are dealing with an unstable person way over his depth. Zaev would say anything to anyone. He is a lunatic, He needs professional help. Be smarter than he is my friend.



Desperate for Albanian votes Zaev agreed to adopt the TiranaPlatform that says Serbs perpetrated genocide over Albanians. But now, in an interview with a Serbian paper Zaev says that "Kosovo is the heart of Serbia", blames VMRO of being too close to Albanians. He says this while negotiating a coalition with Albanian parties! He could've just as well told them their mothers are whores. He is unhinged.

It is the long established totalitarian paradigm all mad men hold: cynicism, inconsistencies, lies, theft, murder do not matter. Only taking and holding to power does.

[vicsinad]

Speaking of how Macedonians got to this point, I remembered my dad writing an article about how Macedonia will continue spiraling downward, and I asked him send it my way to re-read. I find the following excerpt pretty descriptive and actually gets at what a lot of people here have said in different ways. The article is from 2009, and I think it helps explain how Macedonia ended up where it is:

https://www.scribd.com/document/18622809/Macedonian-Style-Coup-d-Etat

Because of such a chronic lack of real economic alternatives in Macedonia, the best that individuals can hope for is a change of government. For the Macedonians, the purpose of government acquires quite a different meaning than what is commonly understood by Western democracies – it becomes a source for jobs. Part of this attitude is due to Macedonia’s communist experience. Macedonians are use to the idea of the government being a major and steady employer and they continue to expect the same. Since the fall of communism in the early 1990’s, many Macedonians have not been able to adapt to the new political and economic environment. Even those Macedonians who are lucky enough to have a government job are not sure they will keep them for more than four years. That is because Macedonia does not have a strong and permanent civil service force like traditional western democracies where these jobs are separated from the political jobs. For the most part, these jobs are filled by a pool of party members of whichever political party happens to be in charge of the current government. After every parliamentary election, a quad-annual process of mass firing and hiring of government and public employees in Macedonia becomes a frantic experience.

A mass firing and hiring of government and public employees is done by VMRO -DPMNE and it is also done by SDSM, the two major political parties in Macedonia. For example, the current government of VMRO-DPMNE went as far as to replace all supervisory and technical employees in the Ministry of Interior, including the career police officers and custom specialists.It also replaced the personnel in the Foreign Ministry responsible for the Macedonian Euro-
Atlantic integration. The government recalled newly appointed ambassadors from Washington and London before even having anybody ready to replace them. All of this was done in the name of incompetence on the part of the replaced professionals while the incoming employees were viewed as highly qualified individuals who could bring the much needed professionalism and expertise to their positions. Albeit, every Macedonian knows that this is nothing more than a token excuse for an act of cover-up for hiring the party cadres.

The fact that Mr. Gruevski was not satisfied with only replacing political appointees and those who he believed were hired unlawfully is further evidenced by his decision to carry out a mass firing of hundreds of border and custom specialists. Macedonia is on a crossroads from the East to the West and much of the illegal activities, such as drug and human trafficking, pass through her territory. In order to help the country be better prepared to combat these problems, the European Community and the United States provided much of the technical equipment and training to the Macedonian government. But even if this was the case, it would only seem logical to properly review each individual’s qualifications and then make a decision based on merit.Since it takes considerable expenses and time to train and to educate specialists, it only seems prudent to keep those specialists on the job regardless of which political party is running the government. Instead, the government proceeded with a mass replacement of the specialists instead of slowly replacing those who are incompetent or who may have compromised their positions. Apparently, compromising the safety and effectiveness of the bureaucracy was scarified in order to provide jobs to the members.

The mass replacements were not only done in the political and governmental institutions and agencies. These firings happened in other public institutions also. Especially affected were jobs relating to the medical, educational, transportation and cultural fields. Clearly, Mr. Gruevski’s government did not distinguish between political appointees or civil service jobs either. In either case, however, it probably did not matter to him because the pressure of providing jobs to the members of his party was much too strong to ignore it. Apparently, it all boiled down to the same political favoritism of which he so vociferously accused his predecessor, Mr. Buchkovski. Butagain, without these maneuvers, one can only speculate how lengthy his tenure of a minister would have been. As long as the Macedonian government does not enact a strong legislation to regulate and protect the civil service jobs, this practice will continue to recycle itself every time Macedonia elects a new government.

The current government headed by Prime Minister Gruevski seems to be unaffected by all the criticism it has received by local and foreign media. Many influential foreign diplomats and politicians have brought it to his attention that he may have gone too far by allowing mass replacements. But Mr. Gruevski attempted to justify his actions by arguing that he is not the one who set the precedent here, but that he only followed in the foot-steps of his previous predecessors, such as Vlado Buchkovski, Branko Crvenkovski, Ljupco Georgievski and other preceding government officials. In fact, he went so far to claim that the previous government had hired many incompetent professionals for political favors and nepotism. Undoubtedly, Mr.Gruevski could truly argue that he has a valid point here because the previous coalition government formed by SDSM and DUI was just as guilty as Mr. Gruevski, and therefore he should not take all the blame. In fact, the Prime Minister defended his decision by arguing that he is only correcting the mistakes made by the previous coalition government headed by SDSM. Of course, Mr. Gruevski could have changed this situation by not following his predecessors’ footsteps; but one can only assume the kind of pressure Mr. Gruevski must have been under to provide the promised jobs to all those who supported his election.

There is an abundance of evidence which points out that these events have devastating effects on the political and economic well-being of the Macedonian people, as well as on the political stability and continuity of the Macedonian nation. People have not only become indifferent to the affairs of the government but they see their government as corrupt, incapable and ineffective.The very ideas of justice, fairness, economic prosperity, political stability and ethnic coexistence have turned into a highly expensive Western import available only to the government
cadre and the few unscrupulous oligarchs. But most importantly, the government has critically impaired the most basic human instincts of its citizens to be able to create, hope, and aspire. In other words,the Macedonian government has become more of a burden to its people rather than playing a vital role for creating and perpetuating conditions for a better Macedonian future. To the contrary, the government became directly accountable for alienating its citizens from themselves,their fellow citizens, and the government. It is very difficult to expect that Macedonians could go on like this much longer. The situation in Macedonia becomes more unbearable with every day that passes and a quick-fix is desperately needed.

There are many lessons which the Macedonian government needs to learn in order to become truly democratic. But above everything else, the Macedonian government needs to understand that they are elected to serve the interest of its citizens first and foremost. It is doubtful that this will happen unless the Macedonian people realize that the real power is in their hands and that they are ultimately the masters of their own affairs. Unfortunately, as things stand now, the change of governments in Macedonia (as democratic as it has proven it could be) will continue to harbor the seeds of its own instability and ineffectiveness. Even if no real coup d’etat took place in Macedonia, this quad-annual rotation of governments will continue to cause irreparable damage to the vital government and public institutions as well as to the entire bureaucratic structure of the country.

[vicsinad]

Phoenix...... Thanks for your "Welcome back" comment my good friend.



Vic..... Honestly, we are dealing with an unstable person way over his depth. Zaev would say anything to anyone. He is a lunatic, He needs professional help. Be smarter than he is my friend.

Bill, thank you for the advice. I was jut posting an article on what he said. I didn't say I agreed with it or "fell" for what he's saying. He tells different newspapers different things depending on who the audience was. This newspaper was a Bulgarian newspaper that he made these comments to.

[Tomche Makedonche]

"We don't even know how many MPs (Members of Parliament) participated in the voting. There was no broadcast of the voting and the decision cannot even be registered in the official bulletin, which is a condition for it to become official. So, everything that has happened is illegitimate," Veljanovski argued.

For anyone so inclined, I think you will also need to look at the Rules of Procedures of the Assembly if you want to investigate these claims.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Speaking of how Macedonians got to this point, I remembered my dad writing an article about how Macedonia will continue spiraling downward, and I asked him send it my way to re-read. I find the following excerpt pretty descriptive and actually gets at what a lot of people here have said in different ways. The article is from 2009, and I think it helps explain how Macedonia ended up where it is:

https://www.scribd.com/document/18622809/Macedonian-Style-Coup-d-Etat

Because of such a chronic lack of real economic alternatives in Macedonia, the best that individuals can hope for is a change of government. For the Macedonians, the purpose of government acquires quite a different meaning than what is commonly understood by Western democracies – it becomes a source for jobs. Part of this attitude is due to Macedonia’s communist experience. Macedonians are use to the idea of the government being a major and steady employer and they continue to expect the same. Since the fall of communism in the early 1990’s, many Macedonians have not been able to adapt to the new political and economic environment. Even those Macedonians who are lucky enough to have a government job are not sure they will keep them for more than four years. That is because Macedonia does not have a strong and permanent civil service force like traditional western democracies where these jobs are separated from the political jobs. For the most part, these jobs are filled by a pool of party members of whichever political party happens to be in charge of the current government. After every parliamentary election, a quad-annual process of mass firing and hiring of government and public employees in Macedonia becomes a frantic experience.

A mass firing and hiring of government and public employees is done by VMRO -DPMNE and it is also done by SDSM, the two major political parties in Macedonia. For example, the current government of VMRO-DPMNE went as far as to replace all supervisory and technical employees in the Ministry of Interior, including the career police officers and custom specialists.It also replaced the personnel in the Foreign Ministry responsible for the Macedonian Euro-
Atlantic integration. The government recalled newly appointed ambassadors from Washington and London before even having anybody ready to replace them. All of this was done in the name of incompetence on the part of the replaced professionals while the incoming employees were viewed as highly qualified individuals who could bring the much needed professionalism and expertise to their positions. Albeit, every Macedonian knows that this is nothing more than a token excuse for an act of cover-up for hiring the party cadres.

The fact that Mr. Gruevski was not satisfied with only replacing political appointees and those who he believed were hired unlawfully is further evidenced by his decision to carry out a mass firing of hundreds of border and custom specialists. Macedonia is on a crossroads from the East to the West and much of the illegal activities, such as drug and human trafficking, pass through her territory. In order to help the country be better prepared to combat these problems, the European Community and the United States provided much of the technical equipment and training to the Macedonian government. But even if this was the case, it would only seem logical to properly review each individual’s qualifications and then make a decision based on merit.Since it takes considerable expenses and time to train and to educate specialists, it only seems prudent to keep those specialists on the job regardless of which political party is running the government. Instead, the government proceeded with a mass replacement of the specialists instead of slowly replacing those who are incompetent or who may have compromised their positions. Apparently, compromising the safety and effectiveness of the bureaucracy was scarified in order to provide jobs to the members.

The mass replacements were not only done in the political and governmental institutions and agencies. These firings happened in other public institutions also. Especially affected were jobs relating to the medical, educational, transportation and cultural fields. Clearly, Mr. Gruevski’s government did not distinguish between political appointees or civil service jobs either. In either case, however, it probably did not matter to him because the pressure of providing jobs to the members of his party was much too strong to ignore it. Apparently, it all boiled down to the same political favoritism of which he so vociferously accused his predecessor, Mr. Buchkovski. Butagain, without these maneuvers, one can only speculate how lengthy his tenure of a minister would have been. As long as the Macedonian government does not enact a strong legislation to regulate and protect the civil service jobs, this practice will continue to recycle itself every time Macedonia elects a new government.

The current government headed by Prime Minister Gruevski seems to be unaffected by all the criticism it has received by local and foreign media. Many influential foreign diplomats and politicians have brought it to his attention that he may have gone too far by allowing mass replacements. But Mr. Gruevski attempted to justify his actions by arguing that he is not the one who set the precedent here, but that he only followed in the foot-steps of his previous predecessors, such as Vlado Buchkovski, Branko Crvenkovski, Ljupco Georgievski and other preceding government officials. In fact, he went so far to claim that the previous government had hired many incompetent professionals for political favors and nepotism. Undoubtedly, Mr.Gruevski could truly argue that he has a valid point here because the previous coalition government formed by SDSM and DUI was just as guilty as Mr. Gruevski, and therefore he should not take all the blame. In fact, the Prime Minister defended his decision by arguing that he is only correcting the mistakes made by the previous coalition government headed by SDSM. Of course, Mr. Gruevski could have changed this situation by not following his predecessors’ footsteps; but one can only assume the kind of pressure Mr. Gruevski must have been under to provide the promised jobs to all those who supported his election.

There is an abundance of evidence which points out that these events have devastating effects on the political and economic well-being of the Macedonian people, as well as on the political stability and continuity of the Macedonian nation. People have not only become indifferent to the affairs of the government but they see their government as corrupt, incapable and ineffective.The very ideas of justice, fairness, economic prosperity, political stability and ethnic coexistence have turned into a highly expensive Western import available only to the government
cadre and the few unscrupulous oligarchs. But most importantly, the government has critically impaired the most basic human instincts of its citizens to be able to create, hope, and aspire. In other words,the Macedonian government has become more of a burden to its people rather than playing a vital role for creating and perpetuating conditions for a better Macedonian future. To the contrary, the government became directly accountable for alienating its citizens from themselves,their fellow citizens, and the government. It is very difficult to expect that Macedonians could go on like this much longer. The situation in Macedonia becomes more unbearable with every day that passes and a quick-fix is desperately needed.

There are many lessons which the Macedonian government needs to learn in order to become truly democratic. But above everything else, the Macedonian government needs to understand that they are elected to serve the interest of its citizens first and foremost. It is doubtful that this will happen unless the Macedonian people realize that the real power is in their hands and that they are ultimately the masters of their own affairs. Unfortunately, as things stand now, the change of governments in Macedonia (as democratic as it has proven it could be) will continue to harbor the seeds of its own instability and ineffectiveness. Even if no real coup d’etat took place in Macedonia, this quad-annual rotation of governments will continue to cause irreparable damage to the vital government and public institutions as well as to the entire bureaucratic structure of the country.

Believe it or not, this phenomenon is not specific to RoMacedonia. For example, from my understanding, this was also a regular practice in RoGreece, until they passed a law to stop it that is, but then instead of replacing workers in the existing positions, all successive governments did was create new additional positions on top of those existing ones to accommodate their own party affiliates, the results of which helped lead them to the situation they find themselves in today.

[Phoenix]

...But above everything else, the Macedonian government needs to understand that they are elected to serve the interest of its citizens first and foremost. It is doubtful that this will happen unless the Macedonian people realize that the real power is in their hands and that they are ultimately the masters of their own affairs...

I think most democracies suffer from similar problems but to a lesser extent...the heads of government departments are often replaced once a new administration is sworn in, admittedly this isn't as drastic as the large scale dismissals that we see in Macedonia, but it clearly does happen, whether that democracy is the USA or Australia (not sure how widespread this is in Australia now, but it did happen often in the past...meanwhile we have seen large scale change in the USA since the Trump Administration has taken the reigns)

You can't argue with the themes in the article...Macedonia is a basket case and the constant revolving door nepotism of government jobs is something that can't be easily changed from what is considered 'normal' in their warped way of thinking and doing business.

The most important constant in any democracy should be transparency, without it we're open to the slight of hand trickery, attempted by Zaev and his shiptar coalition partners recently.

Ultimately, nothing can or will change until the majority of Macedonian's understand their role and responsibility within a democracy.
Until Macedonian's understand that democracy isn't something that you pick up off a shelf or is gifted to you on a silver platter, nothing will change and Macedonia will continue to be governed by a criminal class whose only incentive for action or change is the size of the bribe.

[vicsinad]

Is MINA changing it's tune on DPMNE? Are we seeing glimpses of awakening even in what is generally thought to be pro-DPMNE media?

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/31991/1/

It's all laughs at the meeting between VMRO-DPMNE leader Nikola Gruevski and US Ambassador Jess Baily accompanied by US Deputy to the Assistant Deputy Hoyt Yee.

The VMRO led Government, (still) in coalition with DUI who took part in Thursday's coup exchanged opinions about the political situation in Macedonia with Obama appointed diplomats.

Much to the dismay of photographers, the meeting took place in a relaxed atmosphere, despite the fact the US Embassy and Jess Baily assisted by the Swedish, UK, French, Italian and German Embassies initiated the coup.

Gruevski and the rest of the VMRO-DPMNE MPs appear to be giving one statement for the people, but then behave completely differently behind closed doors.

After the meeting, Gruevski stated his party is for early elections, however that statement needs to be taken with a grain of salt considering VMRO-DPMNE's actions thus far. Gruevski himself stated his party would never allow a coup or the formation of a Soros led Government.

However, MINA finds both Gruevski and Ali Ahmeti for at least two weeks knew of the impending coup with both electing to remove themselves from the situation. Gruevski convenietly left for Austria and Ahmeti was nowhere to be found. While SDS and DUI proceeded with the coup, VMRO-DPMNE MPs sang in Parliament (!?!?!) - it was the people who prevented the coup. Now, the VMRO-DPMNE led Government is prosecuting the very people who prevented the coup. Prominent Law professor Ljubomir Cuculovski shily admitted VMRO-DPMNE has responsibiolity for what happened in Parliament as they are the ruling party.

In a subsequent interview upon Gruevski's return to Macedonia, he stated his party has limited power even though they control all institutions of the Government and has the backing of the people (probably not anymore). His statement is nonsensical at best. They have complete control of the Government. It's becoming clear that VMRO-DPMNE is not simply not protecting Macedonia which as a ruling Government is their constitutional duty, but is actively participating in its demise. And this will have consequences for VMRO-DPMNE.

It's not a good sign when my 83 year old granpa uses his pension to purchase weapons. Meanwhile, keep laughing it up... //Gorazd Velkovski

[vicsinad]

I think most democracies suffer from similar problems but to a lesser extent...the heads of government departments are often replaced once a new administration is sworn in, admittedly this isn't as drastic as the large scale dismissals that we see in Macedonia, but it clearly does happen, whether that democracy is the USA or Australia (not sure how widespread this is in Australia now, but it did happen often in the past...meanwhile we have seen large scale change in the USA since the Trump Administration has taken the reigns)

You can't argue with the themes in the article...Macedonia is a basket case and the constant revolving door nepotism of government jobs is something that can't be easily changed from what is considered 'normal' in their warped way of thinking and doing business.

The most important constant in any democracy should be transparency, without it we're open to the slight of hand trickery, attempted by Zaev and his shiptar coalition partners recently.

Ultimately, nothing can or will change until the majority of Macedonian's understand their role and responsibility within a democracy.
Until Macedonian's understand that democracy isn't something that you pick up off a shelf or is gifted to you on a silver platter, nothing will change and Macedonia will continue to be governed by a criminal class whose only incentive for action or change is the size of the bribe.

These are all good points.

[vicsinad]

Believe it or not, this phenomenon is not specific to RoMacedonia. For example, from my understanding, this was also a regular practice in RoGreece, until they passed a law to stop it that is, but then instead of replacing workers in the existing positions, all successive governments did was create new additional positions on top of those existing ones to accommodate their own party affiliates, the results of which helped lead them to the situation they find themselves in today.

Do you know about when they passed that law? Was it 1990s?

[Amphipolis]

Believe it or not, this phenomenon is not specific to RoMacedonia. For example, from my understanding, this was also a regular practice in RoGreece, until they passed a law to stop it that is, but then instead of replacing workers in the existing positions, all successive governments did was create new additional positions on top of those existing ones to accommodate their own party affiliates, the results of which helped lead them to the situation they find themselves in today.

Hiring in the Public Sector through political favoritism DID stop in Greece in 1994 through the famous Peponis Law. This act had some hilarious counter effects; people stopped being interested and active in politics.

A Member of the Parliament even dared to say that after this Law he feels marginalized and downgraded (hmmm...).

[Phoenix]

Is MINA changing it's tune on DPMNE? Are we seeing glimpses of awakening even in what is generally thought to be pro-DPMNE media?...

I wouldn't get too carried away with such lofty hopes and wishes...

MINA occasionally throws a curve ball, I suspect it's merely an act to create the illusion of objectivity and responsible journalism (for want of a better word)

I religiously open MINA the moment my laptop fires up...and you do occasionally see an anti-regime piece in there...I think if you ever see them attacking both sides of politics in equal measure, then you could take them a little more seriously

[Tomche Makedonche]

Do you know about when they passed that law? Was it 1990s?

From memory I believe it was much earlier than that, I'll see if I can locate the source