Macedonians Storm Parliament

[DraganOfStip]

Or to make a pop culture reference...it's that scene in 'The Simpsons'...where Lisa is conducting a science experiment to determine who is smarter, a hamster or Bart...and it goes on how the hamster sticks his paw in the electrical socket and gets a shock and NEVER goes near it again, meanwhile Bart continually pokes his finger into the socket, gets an electrical shock each time and NEVER LEARNS FROM IT...Dragan sorry mate, but for the purposes of this illustration, you're Bart.

Dragan you're one of the most defeatist people that has cowered into the MTO, but that's not some lofty attribute that you alone possess, it's a blight seared into the DNA of most Macedonians in the Republic today...always looking for somebody to blame but never willing to do anything for themselves, preferring to be someones compliant little lap dog, to fetch, sit and eat on the orders of the master.

Then you obviously don't know me at all.

I'm particularly annoyed with you when you responded to one of my posts to Vic and within that post you mentioned Dragan and so he's then jumped back on me and by default you've escalated things.

No one's jumping back on you mate, I'm simply replying to your posts aimed at me. No aggression, no foul mouth, no nothing, just a simple discussion. I would have written the same thing even without Gocka's posts, I simply wasn't online at the time to do it. You're taking this way too ill-hearted.

[Pelagonija]

I can't believe what I just read...That was probably the biggest load of rubbish I read on this forum.
Did you actually read what you wrote above before posting it? Better yet, did you even read the post you replied to?
You say people here have gone mad with hatred but I guess your hatred towards ZZ is leading you to that very direction.
If only Macedonians could loathe both Grujo and Zajko with the same passion as your hatred towards ZZ, maybe there would be hope for Macedonia.
So, to sum all up, are you saying that putting Grujo back in power is the solution?

Be a man. Answer the questions I asked you..

Don't be a typical communist lefty by not answering the question..

Be a man and answer the questions I asked..

[Pelagonija]

My god this is truly insane? DUI, the fascist drug dealing murderers who were in government with VMRO dealing tenders wanted to extend the mandate SJO? as a result Gruo didn't want to go to Gail???? WHAT the fark?? Have you people gone mad with hatred....?? THE FN Math just doesn't add up..

Mate answer the following:

1) Why didn't Zaev release any recordings on ex UCK DUI?
2) Are you insinuating that DUI is moral and not corrupt??


**This is exactly my point people like Zaev have divided the people based on an artificial pretext and people like you poor petrol on the fire by passively condoning the status quo.

Based on your logic all parties should be afraid of the SJO and should be happy to see the back of it. But your comment states otherwise, that Ahmeti and ZZ are innocent and leads me to believe that SJO is a political tool used to decimate VMRO just for the sake of power lust.. hence if there is no lesser evil then why are you passively supporting one evil over the other?

Does ZZs bratsvo i Edintsvo tendencies appeal to you? You seem to be picking sides and cherry picking facts to back your theories..


Logically who stands to gain the most by driving this narrative? Th Albanians and SDS.. hence this theory doesn't hold water, that is unless all the top brass go to Gail, eg Ali, ZZ and your retarderd former PM

Think logically Dragan..

Come on Dragan answer the questions

Mate answer the following:

1) Why didn't Zaev release any recordings on ex UCK DUI?
2) Are you insinuating that DUI is moral and not corrupt??

[DraganOfStip]

1) Why didn't Zaev release any recordings on ex UCK DUI?

Because he knew they're the strongest party in the Albanian block and he would eventually have to make a coalition with them if he wants to form a majority. If he released their misdeeds on tape, he would have had a hard time explaining his coalition with them to both his voters AND his fellow party members, and would subsequently lose support.

2) Are you insinuating that DUI is moral and not corrupt??

Nope. And Albanians know that as well, they showed that on the last elections where DUI got almost half the votes it had on the elections before.

Now, since I satisfied your curiosity, be a sport and have the common courtesy to do the same for me:

So, to sum all up, are you saying that putting Grujo back in power is the solution?

[Pelagonija]

Dragan be batka.. da mu ebam plemeto na gruo ciganot.. mate he will be gone soon.

My point is that we shouldn't justify the implementation of the Tiran platform because

1) They all are corrupt, hence math doesn't add up based on Gruo accepted the platform but doesn't want to go jail because DUI wanted the extension of the SJO.. this is crazy, DUI Was in bed with Gruo for ten years, and this is top of their murderous drug dealing fascist tendencies? Hence why would dui want the extension of SJO, are they and ZZ above the law.

2) Albs have gone to ZZ as they know he will do anything to get into power and not because of their love of democracy and anti corruption

[DraganOfStip]

Dragan be batka.. da mu ebam plemeto na gruo ciganot.. mate he will be gone soon.

My question wasn't if he would be gone or not, but whether you think he should come back in power? You made it pretty clear you don't want Zajko, so are you suggesting it should be Grujo instead?

My point is that we shouldn't justify the implementation of the Tiran platform

Has anyone here (apart from the Albanian members) justified it? If so, I haven't noticed.

1) They all are corrupt, hence math doesn't add up based on Gruo accepted the platform but doesn't want to go jail because DUI wanted the extension of the SJO.. this is crazy, DUI Was in bed with Gruo for ten years, and this is top of their murderous drug dealing fascist tendencies? Hence why would dui want the extension of SJO, are they and ZZ above the law.

As far as I know Zajko is under legal proceedings for 2 accounts - the bribe case and blackmailing Grujo, so he definitely isn't above the law.

Regarding DUI, let me show you 2 points why they supported the extension of SJO's mandate:
Exhibit A: There is nothing in those recordings (that we know of) that can implicate them in serious criminal activities. Whether or not Zajko decided to stash those tapes aside and keep them as a bargain/blackmail tool in his negotiations with them, remains to be seen. But the fact is that so far the tapped recordings don't have DUI with their hands in the cookie jar, and therefore they don't feel threatened by SJO.

Exhibit B: From DUI's perspective, if I was a political party that suffered a serious defeat (as I stated they got almost half the votes compared to the previous elections), I would do anything to improve my image among the voters. And siding with a party whose highest officials are up to their necks in corruption and crime as the tapped recordings clearly showed, wouldn't be benefiting my already ruined image would it? Aside from that, their voters are clearly against DPMNE and their anti-Albanian rhetoric, so siding with DPMNE would automatically mean even less votes for them on the next elections, whenever they may be held. By officially supporting the extension of SJO's mandate they want to leave a public impression that they want to fight corruption (though we all know that's bollocks) in order to score political points, so the math does add up more than you actually think.

2) Albs have gone to ZZ as they know he will do anything to get into power and not because of their love of democracy and anti corruption

Of course, and after Grujo's sharp anti-Albanian rhetoric he was the only obvious choice.

[Solun]

As far as I know Zajko is under legal proceedings for 2 accounts - the bribe case and blackmailing Grujo, so he definitely isn't above the law.

To make your statement more accurate, you should have worded it as follows: 'While Katica Janeva is leading SJO, Zaev is above the law'

[vicsinad]

I don’t think we are going to get any clarity on these matters going down the legal route. The legal basis of both Ivanov and Zaev’s moves can only really be determined by the Constitutional Court, and there will be a number of aspects of law to be considered i.e. the Constitution, the Law of the Assembly, Rules of Procedures of the Assembly, etc.

For example, in respect of Ivanov’s refusal to give the mandate to Zaev, one point that has to be established is whether the constitution provides the President a privilege of choice in issuing the mandate. In Macedonian, the operative word under Article 90 is должен, the English version has utilised the word obliged in its translation in respect of its intention, as opposed to say the word obligated. On this basis alone an argument can be made on the difference between the use and meaning of the word obliged over obligated, in which it can be argued that obliged infers choice whilst obligated does not. Furthermore under Article 84 in which the roles of the President are detailed, the operative word utilised in respect of his duties regarding the mandator is определува, which the English translation utilises the word nominates, which again infers choice.

I think that's not quite correct. The use of dolzehn in this context means "shall" and not "should," which means obliged is a correct substitute for dolzhen. Article 84 may say nominate, but the specifics for that nomination process is detailed in Article 90. The president shall nominate the president based on who has the majority. Then the rules specify what happens when the first party offered the mandate can't form a coalition.

But I think you're right in that the legal argument wouldn't solve it, even though the legal argument is what Ivanov is using to withhold the mandate and a legal argument is what Zaev is using to accuse Ivanov. Honestly, I don't think either of them have thought too deeply about the actual legal arguments and are throwing around "unconstitutional" as a selling point for the citizens and/or the west. It's a political dispute between to parties wanting power.

[DraganOfStip]

To make your statement more accurate, you should have worded it as follows: 'While Katica Janeva is leading SJO, Zaev is above the law'

Well according to my knowledge both of these proceedings are led by the Public Prosecutor and not the SJO, so you have nothing to fear.

[Tomche Makedonche]

I think that's not quite correct. The use of dolzehn in this context means "shall" and not "should," which means obliged is a correct substitute for dolzhen. Article 84 may say nominate, but the specifics for that nomination process is detailed in Article 90. The president shall nominate the president based on who has the majority. Then the rules specify what happens when the first party offered the mandate can't form a coalition.

But I think you're right in that the legal argument wouldn't solve it, even though the legal argument is what Ivanov is using to withhold the mandate and a legal argument is what Zaev is using to accuse Ivanov. Honestly, I don't think either of them have thought too deeply about the actual legal arguments and are throwing around "unconstitutional" as a selling point for the citizens and/or the west. It's a political dispute between to parties wanting power.

Sure, that is one view that can be argued, but like I said there are opposing views that can be argued as well, which ultimately, such matters will need to be submitted to the Constitutional Court for a determination. I was simply highlighting that there would be multiple aspects regarding any case on the legality of these actions and us trying to debate them based on our own opinions would do little to provide clarity on such issues.

Honestly, I think Vangelovski summed it up best when he said:

The legality of anything in Macedonia is irrelevant. Successive Macedonian governments (and most Macedonian individuals) have ignored the constitution and legislative acts whenever it doesn't suit them. There is no rule of law in that country and the very idea is treated as a joke.

They will do whatever they can under the guise of the law and institutional processes to achieve what they want. When even that breaks down they will revert to brute force...

[vicsinad]

Honestly, I think Vangelovski summed it up best when he said:

The legality of anything in Macedonia is irrelevant. Successive Macedonian governments (and most Macedonian individuals) have ignored the constitution and legislative acts whenever it doesn't suit them. There is no rule of law in that country and the very idea is treated as a joke.

They will do whatever they can under the guise of the law and institutional processes to achieve what they want. When even that breaks down they will revert to brute force...

Yes, that's true. The citizens need to actually start paying attention to the laws and the constitution or else the two options are either chaos or dictatorship.

I think you and Gocka make good points that parallel institutions may arise out of this.

[vicsinad]

But this is where Macedonia is heading...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKNTWm_RNfY

[vicsinad]

To go with the theme of parallel governments, here is the recent headline:

Џафери не може да влезе во кабинетот, таму се Груевски и пратениците на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ

http://www.mkd.mk/makedonija/politika/dzhaferi-ne-mozhe-da-vleze-vo-kabinetot-tamu-se-gruevski-i-pratenicite-na-vmro

[vicsinad]

Reports now that Gruevski/DPMNE are going to bring lawsuits against the MPs for holding the vote on electing Dzhaferi as speaker.

[DraganOfStip]

The Sobranos