Macedonians Storm Parliament

[Gocka]

Holy shit that's harsh, and I think off the mark.

He is not being defeatist,. He is right. His point was that if the government is led by SDSM or DPMNE the country is fucked, this is true, no?

What he meant by the arguing about SDSM and DPMNE is pointless, is that people are stuck on blaming each other, picking sides, instead of realizing that both parties are treacherous. He has clearly said that Macedonia needs a third option but it doesn't exist. What do you want him to do, go out protest on his own?

I think he relatively recently came to the conclusion that both parties are useless, and now he needs to convince other Macedonians of the same, which I think he will. Until enough Macedonians come to that realization there isn't much he can do.

You should be encouraging him to pull more Macedonians away from SDSM and DPMNE brainwashing, not freaking destroying him for no reason.

Stop acting like the latest clusterfuck is going to be the be all and end all of Macedonia. We didn't have a country for hundreds of years, yet here we are. Nothing that is happening now is irreversible, and unfortunately Macedonians as a whole are not ready to right the ship.

You've attacked almost every poster on this thread, how is that productive? Tighten it up son!

There's one very simple solution in all of this and that's people power.

If you, as a citizen of Macedonia can't be fucked getting out on the streets and protesting...who am I to care, sitting on the other side of the world.
Regardless of what I have to say, or what my best intentions are for you...YOU and other Macedonian's in the Republic are always loathe to take any advice from the diaspora...

It seems to me that many of you here on this forum want to analyse the shit out of the events in parliament, to intellectualise each scene and actor in this drama, like an academic jerk-circle, where theory and reality are two divergent beams of light, never to cross over... it's like you're looking for excuses to remain apathetic to your own plight or to commit to being a slave to party affiliations and then it's the same old shit all over again, in some never ending cyclical nightmare, like the rodent on the wheel, wondering why after all this running he hasn't got anywhere...

Or to make a pop culture reference...it's that scene in 'The Simpsons'...where Lisa is conducting a science experiment to determine who is smarter, a hamster or Bart...and it goes on how the hamster sticks his paw in the electrical socket and gets a shock and NEVER goes near it again, meanwhile Bart continually pokes his finger into the socket, gets an electrical shock each time and NEVER LEARNS FROM IT...Dragan sorry mate, but for the purposes of this illustration, you're Bart.

Dragan you're one of the most defeatist people that has cowered into the MTO, but that's not some lofty attribute that you alone possess, it's a blight seared into the DNA of most Macedonians in the Republic today...always looking for somebody to blame but never willing to do anything for themselves, preferring to be someones compliant little lap dog, to fetch, sit and eat on the orders of the master.

Fine mate, if subservience is your ambition...knock yourself out, you certainly don't have to work hard to achieve it, it doesn't require joining the masses in public places, all it requires is sitting on your arse and doing nothing...shit, you could even achieve the same in any kafana, whinging and whining and achieving the net sum of zero.

I see we don't seem to be able to move on from the gossip of who belted who, masked avengers, puppet masters, selective assaults and the myriad of excuses of why this particular form of people power was impotent.

Meanwhile I'd like to take the approach of a certain theory that espouses:
"...the aim of action should be the largest possible balance of pleasure over pain or the greatest happiness of the greatest number".
That's why I have no issue with skulls being cracked in parliament, don't even care which faction does it...

But don't mind me...you guys continue to take sides, pontificate the rights and wrongs...continue fiddling while Skopje burns...and most of all, just sit there and do nothing...because, after all to use your own words Dragan:

"...In the end, I find all this DPMNE/SDSM arguing pointless because both of these criminal organizations have proven to be doing more harm than good to Macedonia and whoever creates the new government - we're f**ed".

[Vangelovski]

Very good Vangelovski...I knew you had a sense of humour...somewhere.

Surely you can be centre-left and still demand your rights, forcefully if required...?

It was given with the intention of light humour and I hope you took it that way.

Of course you could be centre-left and demand your rights forcefully. The difference would be in the definition of rights, however.

Well done mate, two attempts at humour within the one thread and not too much daylight between the two...good work...

BTW...whats your purification ritual when exposing yourself to scenes of homosexuality and sodomy..you know you'll be going to an infernal place if you don't alter your viewing habits...

I throw acid in my eyes.

[Phoenix]

It was given with the intention of light humour and I hope you took it that way.

Of course you could be centre-left and demand your rights forcefully. The difference would be in the definition of rights, however.

I throw acid in my eyes.

No problem...I must say I did have a laugh about it...

[Vangelovski]

LOL I've been surprised by a lot of peoples reactions recently, including my own.

I will now interrogate you, just shoot off the answers and you can be on your way if you wish.


Was the storming of the parliament
-a genuine act of popular revolt
-a DPMNE intimidation tactic
-an indirect and misguided pro DPMNE outburst

Should SDSM be allowed to commit treachery and then hope they are punished, or should someone stop them, if so who realistically, not idealistically given that no actual counter force seems to exist other than DPMNE.

No idea to be honest.

Is DPMNE the lesser evil?

I think they're the same. But its irrelevant at this stage. This whole discussion is 25 years too late. And I'm not just saying that, I actually think that.

Should we call for DPMNE to come back to power in order to prevent SDSM from implementing the Tirana platform?

The Tirana platform? The Tirana platform is a peripheral issue compared to the Framework Agreement. Its a mop up job. This country that we call Macedonia lost its sovereignty in 1995 to Greece (and partially the EU) and then lost day to day management to the Albanians in 2001. The Tirana platform is just a few minor reforms in comparison. Ideally, Macedonians would ignore the Tirana platform and completely restructure the state.

What is the best way to achieve unity give the current climate, how to we push Macedonians away from their political affiliations?

Hahaha.

Do you think at this moment, there is a genuine apolitical pro Macedonian movement in ROM?

No. There are plenty of individuals but nothing even remotely resembling an organised movement.

What do you see as the most likely outcome in ROM, near term and long term?

The most likely? A failed state in the shorter term and possibly an Albanian state in the longer term. 25 years is too long to sit around scratching your nuts. Other people have already made decisions and acted upon them in the mean time.

[Vangelovski]

Gocka,

What is your honest opinion on what Macedonia will look like in the longer term?

[Gocka]

If there is going to be a revolt its actually going to be SDSM voters, here is why.

SDSM voters, were already staunchly anti DPMNE and Grujo, because of a traditional left vs right split, but also because of anti corruption sentiment. The odds of them lining up behind DPMNE are slim to none. This is great! Because now if they end up viewing Zaev and SDSM as treacherous and pro Albanian, then they have no where else to turn which makes them more likely to revolt.

On the other hand DPMNE voters have already been fed the fake, anti Albaizaiton koolaid. They were not bothered by years of DPMNE led Albanization. That means the latest SDSM lunacy will only reinforce there pro DPMNE feelings. How are you going to get them to revolt? They will just fall back into DPMNE ranks.

So your only real hope is that SDSM voters will abandon SDSM and Zaev, want nothing to do with Grujo and DPMNE, and lash out as a result. In the process if at least some soft DPMNE supporters see that the revolt is not party affiliated, they may join in. That should be enough.




I hope you guys realize that what is holding Macedonia back from real revolution is DPMNE. They are fake patriots and many of their voters think they are being patriotic by supporting them. DPMNE are taking up the "patriotic" and nationalist space, leaving little room for another genuine patriotic movement to exist.

You have to look past all the noise and look at it like a chess board and really think about your moves and their consequences.


SDSM might be inadvertently creating the ground work for a revolution in Macedonia, its a risk but I think we ought to let them dig their own grave.

Gocka,

What is your honest opinion on what Macedonia will look like in the longer term?

I honestly think its teetering. It looks like we are on the verge of parallel institutions by SDSM and DPMNE, that will encourage Albanians to have their own parallel institutions, then total collapse, civil war, and dissolution of the sate. We are headed that way for sure.

BUT, I also think that if there is ever an opportunity for real revolution, its going to be in the midst of dire circumstances like those above. I think Macedonia will go through a period of collapse, the question is, will a real Macedonia be born from it or will it dissolve into nothing.

Having the Macedonian state in its current manifestation, is in my opinion pointless. The current state of FYROM, has done more harm than good to Macedonian culture, history, nationalism, and unity. We are slowly going to drive each other away and back into the arms of our neighbors. Maybe with out a state, it will give Macedonians something to band together for.

I still hold hope that at the 11th hour something positive will be born.

[Phoenix]

Holy shit that's harsh, and I think off the mark.

He is not being defeatist,. He is right. His point was that if the government is led by SDSM or DPMNE the country is fucked, this is true, no?

What he meant by the arguing about SDSM and DPMNE is pointless, is that people are stuck on blaming each other, picking sides, instead of realizing that both parties are treacherous. He has clearly said that Macedonia needs a third option but it doesn't exist. What do you want him to do, go out protest on his own?

I think he relatively recently came to the conclusion that both parties are useless, and now he needs to convince other Macedonians of the same, which I think he will. Until enough Macedonians come to that realization there isn't much he can do.

You should be encouraging him to pull more Macedonians away from SDSM and DPMNE brainwashing, not freaking destroying him for no reason.

Stop acting like the latest clusterfuck is going to be the be all and end all of Macedonia. We didn't have a country for hundreds of years, yet here we are. Nothing that is happening now is irreversible, and unfortunately Macedonians as a whole are not ready to right the ship.

You've attacked almost every poster on this thread, how is that productive? Tighten it up son!

Gocka,

I've responded to 3 people in this thread, Vic, Dragan and the shiptar.
Please don't exaggerate by claiming I've attacked almost every poster, that's complete nonsense and I don't appreciate it...you're also spending far too much time speaking on behalf of other people in this forum which isn't helping anyone...

I'm particularly annoyed with you when you responded to one of my posts to Vic and within that post you mentioned Dragan and so he's then jumped back on me and by default you've escalated things. I'm more than happy to go even harder on any of you if I feel you're working together...so please stick to your own opinions and leave the others to talk for themselves because they're all very capable of doing that.

[Vangelovski]

If there is going to be a revolt its actually going to be SDSM voters, here is why.

SDSM voters, were already staunchly anti DPMNE and Grujo, because of a traditional left vs right split, but also because of anti corruption sentiment. The odds of them lining up behind DPMNE are slim to none. This is great! Because now if they end up viewing Zaev and SDSM as treacherous and pro Albanian, then they have no where else to turn which makes them more likely to revolt.

On the other hand DPMNE voters have already been fed the fake, anti Albaizaiton koolaid. They were not bothered by years of DPMNE led Albanization. That means the latest SDSM lunacy will only reinforce there pro DPMNE feelings. How are you going to get them to revolt? They will just fall back into DPMNE ranks.

So your only real hope is that SDSM voters will abandon SDSM and Zaev, want nothing to do with Grujo and DPMNE, and lash out as a result. In the process if at least some soft DPMNE supporters see that the revolt is not party affiliated, they may join in. That should be enough.

I hope you guys realize that what is holding Macedonia back from real revolution is DPMNE. They are fake patriots and many of their voters think they are being patriotic by supporting them. DPMNE are taking up the "patriotic" and nationalist space, leaving little room for another genuine patriotic movement to exist.

You have to look past all the noise and look at it like a chess board and really think about your moves and their consequences.

SDSM might be inadvertently creating the ground work for a revolution in Macedonia, its a risk but I think we ought to let them dig their own grave.

Was this in response to my question of Macedonia in the longer term?

On your points above, I think you're forgetting two things. Firstly, the party hacks only account for a small portion of the population. I'm not sure they can pull off a revolution. And I don't think their motivation is ideological or stems from any sense of loyalty. I think its purely nepotistic and the perception of what might be gained (financially) if their chief is in power. Secondly, Macedonia's national motto: Se e ebi vetar.

[Gocka]

I edited this post to include your question.

I mean I didn't say it was a slam dunk but I don't see another path at the moment.

The nepotism is very much DPMNE voters, but SDSM have been out of power a while and from what I can tell they had most of the youth who I don't think see it as something to gain, rather they want change.

The youth will be the key. What else is left otherwise?

Was this in response to my question of Macedonia in the longer term?

On your points above, I think you're forgetting two things. Firstly, the party hacks only account for a small portion of the population. I'm not sure they can pull off a revolution. And I don't think their motivation is ideological or stems from any sense of loyalty. I think its purely nepotistic and the perception of what might be gained (financially) if their chief is in power. Secondly, Macedonia's national motto: Se e ebi vetar.

[Vangelovski]

I edited this post to include your question.

I mean I didn't say it was a slam dunk but I don't see another path at the moment.

The nepotism is very much DPMNE voters, but SDSM have been out of power a while and from what I can tell they had most of the youth who I don't think see it as something to gain, rather they want change.

The youth will be the key. What else is left otherwise?

Honestly, I've never met anyone in Macedonia (young or old) who wants change. They all say they want change, but when I scratch beneath the surface what they really mean is that they want to be able to benefit from the nepotism and corruption. They want the balkan dream - do nothing, get lots of money and act like a mafiash at your local cafe.

[Phoenix]

...I don't think their motivation is ideological or stems from any sense of loyalty. I think its purely nepotistic and the perception of what might be gained (financially) if their chief is in power. Secondly, Macedonia's national motto: Se e ebi vetar.

That's about it...nothing more to see...move on people...

That pretty much explains the condom revolution in recent years that was led by Zaev and his minions, whilst the other side of the political divide sat around and watched their cities being vandalised but didn't give a fuck about it

It pretty much explains why the other half of the political divide sits around doing jack-shit whilst ZZ adopts a foreign platform without an electoral mandate and conniving surreptitious ways of forming government.

Whist Macedonian's in the Republic and their supporters in the diaspora are chained to party affiliations nothing will improve...this is endemic in Macedonian's of every social strata...their myopia to look beyond today and now.

[Gocka]

Phoenix,

I am not trying to gang up on you and I apologize for butting in. It is simply in my nature to speak up when I think I see injustice. I think your personal characterization of Vicsinad and Dragan are way off, and I felt the need to step in. I have on more than one occasion done the same on your behalf, maybe not on this thread but certainly in others, when I felt the same injustice was directed towards you.

I have been here long enough to know you are not a bad guy, just a bit aggressive when it comes to Macedonia, which is good, but in the current climate the last think that we need as a people is more division, if we continue this way, what is left and who is left? If we write everyone off, then whats the point, who are we fighting for?

If we can't see past the partisanship, then we are doomed.

It's easy to shoot off some curse words and write people off, its hard to get them in your corner and convince them to do what you think is right.

I'm just as naturally hot headed as you, but I'm starting to learn that at least when it comes to Macedonians, that will get you nowhere, it will only reinforce that legendary INAJET that we all have in our DNA.

Gocka,

I've responded to 3 people in this thread, Vic, Dragan and the shiptar.
Please don't exaggerate by claiming I've attacked almost every poster, that's complete nonsense and I don't appreciate it...you're also spending far too much time speaking on behalf of other people in this forum which isn't helping anyone...

I'm particularly annoyed with you when you responded to one of my posts to Vic and within that post you mentioned Dragan and so he's then jumped back on me and by default you've escalated things. I'm more than happy to go even harder on any of you if I feel you're working together...so please stick to your own opinions and leave the others to talk for themselves because they're all very capable of doing that.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix,

I am not trying to gang up on you and I apologize for butting in. It is simply in my nature to speak up when I think I see injustice. I think your personal characterization of Vicsinad and Dragan are way off, and I felt the need to step in. I have on more than one occasion done the same on your behalf, maybe not on this thread but certainly in other, when I felt the same injustice towards you.

I have been here long enough to know you are not a bad guy, just a bit aggressive when it comes to Macedonia, which is good, but in the current climate the last think that we need as a people is more division, if we continue this way, what is left and who is left? If we write everyone off, then whats the point, who are we fighting for?

If we can't see past the partisanship, then we are doomed.

It's easy to shoot off some curse words and write people off, its hard to get them in your corner and convince them to do what you think is right.

I'm just as naturally hot headed as you, but I'm starting to learnt that at least when it comes to Macedonians, that will get you nowhere, it will only reinforce that legendary INAJET that we all have in our DNA.

No worries Gocka, points noted.

[Vangelovski]

That pretty much explains the condom revolution in recent years.

Were condoms actually used instead of balloons for paint bombs in creating the interpretive art display? If so, I think we have a winner for the naming of Macedonia's national display of complete mental spastication - the Condom Revolution. I like it Phoenix.

[Gocka]

If Vangelovski and Phoenix can share a laugh then there is hope for Macedonia yet.

I really hope the condom revolution sticks.