Alleged Human Rights "issues" of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia

[vicsinad]

But even your talking about multiethnic countries with multiethnic societies you won't find many countries with a 35% + Minority structure with the constitutional setup of Macedonia.

Tell me one prosperous democratic European country where they have a 25% minority without official language status throughout its territory? Most minorities in Europe with that % have either a conton or federal governing unit.. which we haven't even requested.

First, you won't find any country with the same exact constitutional set up as Macedonia. Second, what's your definition of prosperous? Third, there are other countries with similar ethnic make-ups, though. Moldova is 57% Moldovan, 24% Romanian. Estonia is 70% Estonian and 25% Russian. Latvia is 62% Latvian and 26% Russian. Belgium is 58% Flemish and 31% Walloon.

Let's look at some provisions from two countries' constitutions, despite them having such large minorities, and how they treat minority rights and language issue:

LATVIA

-A person elected to the Saeima shall acquire the mandate of a Member of the Saeima if such person gives the following solemn promise:

“I, upon assuming the duties of a Member of the Saeima, before the people of Latvia, do swear (solemnly promise) to be loyal to Latvia, to strengthen its sovereignty and the Latvian language as the only official language, to defend Latvia as an independent and democratic State, and to fulfil my duties honestly and conscientiously. I undertake to observe the Constitution and laws of Latvia."

-The working language of local governments is the Latvian language

And the only provision regarding ethnic minorities: Persons belonging to ethnic minorities have the right to preserve and develop their language and their ethnic and cultural identity.

ESTONIA

-"which must guarantee the preservation of the Estonian people, the Estonian language and the Estonian culture through the ages"

-Everyone has the right to receive instruction in Estonian. The language of instruction in national minority educational institutions shall be chosen by the educational institution.

-In localities where at least one-half of the permanent residents belong to a national minority, everyone has the right to also receive responses from state agencies, local governments, and their officials in the language of the national minority.

-In localities where the language of the majority of the residents is not Estonian, local governments may, to the extent and pursuant to procedure provided by law, use the language of the majority of the permanent residents of the locality as an internal working language.


Albo: Please tell me how the Russian minority in these countries has it better than the Albanian minority in Macedonia? They don't. Albanians have significant leeway in their language and cultural rights compared to countries in Europe facing similar situations.

So climb down from your pedestal and join the Macedonians in living in equality.

What I'm saying is that we need to be on an equal status in practice not only on paper.

Yes. So again: climb down from your pedestal and join the Macedonians in equality.

[Albo]

I said prosperous and democratic...
Latvia isn't exaxlctly know for being a beacon of democracy or an example of prosperity...

I would rather use Finland as an example where the Sweeds are 6% and have official recognition.
Or
Switzerland(4 official languages)
Or
Netherlands (4 official languages)
Or
Belgium (3 official languages)
Or if you wanna use former Soviet block dictatorships even Belarus has 2 official languages.
And if you want balkan examples look no further than Bosnia and Kosovo where thousands of people where killed raped and pillaged by each other and they still allow full use of language & script throughout their territory

[vicsinad]

We can debate Latvia.

But let's talk about Estonia -- both democratic and prosperous. 25% Russian minority. Let's revisit their stances on minority languages:

-In localities where at least one-half of the permanent residents belong to a national minority, everyone has the right to also receive responses from state agencies, local governments, and their officials in the language of the national minority.

-In localities where the language of the majority of the residents is not Estonian, local governments may, to the extent and pursuant to procedure provided by law, use the language of the majority of the permanent residents of the locality as an internal working language.

No Balkan examples necessary.

[vicsinad]

You asked "Tell me one prosperous democratic European country where they have a 25% minority without official language status throughout its territory?" and I provided you with an answer. Your response was to ignore.

[Albo]

As I said I wouldn't call the Baltic countries an inspiration of democracy and prosperity..
I would much rather a Macedonia with the values of Finland, Switzerland, Netherlands and Belgium than latvia and Estonia..
The history and situation of Russians in Latvia isn't the same as the Albanians of Macedonia ..
But I would say latvia should fully recognize Russian as an official language..

[vicsinad]

As I said I wouldn't call the Baltic countries an inspiration of democracy and prosperity..
I would much rather a Macedonia with the values of Finland, Switzerland, Netherlands and Belgium than latvia and Estonia..
The history and situation of Russians in Latvia isn't the same as the Albanians of Macedonia ..
But I would say latvia should fully recognize Russian as an official language..

How is Estonia not prosperous and democratic? What are your parameters?

You can't bend and shape the definition of prosperous and democratic to fit into your argument.

But if you're now using the fact that the history of Russians is not the same as Albanians, that essentially negates the use of any of the countries you listed, because the histories of their minorities (and majorities) are not the same as of Albanians and Macedonians in Macedonia.

Why is Estonia not a good example while the others are? Show me stats, data, reasoning, evidence and etc. that support your theory. Don't just pick and choose without any set of parameters. That's if you want to be objective about the matter.

[vicsinad]

Fun fact: Estonia is ranked 14th in the world in most democratic nations.

http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

Estonia is also top 25% in the world for economic conditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Yet, they have a 25% minority who doesn't have the right to use their language officially unless they consist of 50% of locality -- and even then, their language rights don't come close to the rights Albanians have.

I wonder if the minorities there should pick up arms and start killing people...is that what you support?

[Albo]

Ok you want data on prosperity
GDP per capita:
Switzerland : 84,815.41 USD
Netherlands: 52,121.20 USD
Finland: 49,366.64 USD
Belgium: 45,036.13 USD

Latvia :15,375.45 USD
Estonia: 18,783.06 USD
-----------------------------------

[Albo]

Yes Estonia is democratic maybe that's why the Russians are well integrated and are happy with the amount of use they have officially.. Could be the reason they don't push for full official status.
At the end of the day Latvia, Estonia and Macedonia don't lose a single thing in making the language of their sizable minorities official..

[vicsinad]

Ok you want data on prosperity
GDP per capita:
Switzerland : 84,815.41 USD
Netherlands: 52,121.20 USD
Finland: 49,366.64 USD
Belgium: 45,036.13 USD

Latvia :15,375.45 USD
Estonia: 18,783.06 USD
-----------------------------------

Cite your sources. The CIA says, as of 2016:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

SWITZERLAND $59,400
NETHERLANDS $50,800
BELGIUM $44,900
FINLAND $41,800
ESTONIA $29,500
LATVIA $25,700

I'm not arguing that those countries in Europe aren't prosperous.

You haven't defined what it means to be prosperous or democratic, even though, relative to the rest of the world, Estonia is much better off on both points. You then do not explain how the histories of the Russians in Estonia disqualify them from being used as an example but the histories of the minorities of the 4 countries you listed don't disqualify them. (You also forget to include how, in Netherlands and Belgium, there is a growing, outright discrimination and disdain attitude for racial and religious minorities, whereas the same is not the case in Macedonia). You also ignore the geopolitical reasons (in addition to historical circumstances) which make all those countries' circumstances different than Macedonia's circumstance.

What I'm telling you is that the Albanians have a very low threshold for what supposed lack of rights are worth killing and fighting for compared to other countries. That is assuming that the Albanians lacked basic rights and ignoring the fact that the NLA/KLA agenda was separation of territory from Macedonia, whether or not it was to be incorporated into some sort of unified, Greater Albania.

[DraganOfStip]

Yes a numerical majority of 51% is technically a majority..
But even your talking about multiethnic countries with multiethnic societies you won't find many countries with a 35% + Minority structure with the constitutional setup of Macedonia.

Tell me one prosperous democratic European country where they have a 25% minority without official language status throughout its territory? Most minorities in Europe with that % have either a conton or federal governing unit.. which we haven't even requested.

Vic already answered this so I'll just spare my fingers some unnecessary typing.

I'm not saying that the needs and desires of Macedonians need to be hindered in anyway..
What I'm saying is that we need to be on an equal status in practice not only on paper.

On paper we're equal. In practice, you're privileged.

The private sector is another issue to the public sector which is entirely in the hands the government..

The public sector is much smaller than the private one. In the public sector (with limited job vacancies) Albanians will have a guaranteed quota of 25% entries (even if they don't have better results than Macedonian candidates), while in the much bigger private sector with many more job vacancies, an Albanian will win a job over the Macedonian if he has better results during the job interview.
And where are you discriminated here exactly?

The issue is that the government sector has had a huge dismal disbalance over the decades when it comes to Albanian representation.. this is a fact.. If you read the thread #Ahmetis Village .. you will see proof of this..
This is the reason why positive discrimination was introduced through the Ohrid Agreement..

OK, so you got what you asked for then. But why stop there,right?

Also your absolutely wrong that all an Albanian needs to show up and they are accepted... there is a minimal criteria which should and needs to be met (as there should) I know of at least 3 relatives who have applied for jobs in the police force and failed.. either the physical test or written..

That's not what I personally experienced here.There were Albanians that scored as much as 3 TIMES LESS points than me that got in while I was rejected.
On a sidenote, this is only the written test, I can't say whether it was also the case in the physical tests (because I wasn't there), but seeing the outcome it went pretty much the same because as far as I could see there were no Albanian candidates that didn't get the jobs.

Yes we have them.. have had them since before Yugoslavia .. well at least we had basic level education available..

You're forgetting the University of Mala Rechica where all classes were held in Albanian. Maybe the diplomas weren't recognized back then, but nevertheless you gained university education in your mother tongue.

for the higher level unfortunately to get it recognized and funded by the majority (with our own momey mind you) we had to go to war and have people die for it!

So once again, you have this for over 15 years now. But why stop there too,right?

Also as I have previously mentioned our school infrastructure is largely PAID FOR AND MAINTAINED BY OUR DIASPORA!! WHYY?? Because the majority refuses to spend 25% of the budget to Albanian schools
I'll give you a recent example..

This is a school in the village of Kopanica where the state had refused to refurbish the school in 40 YEARS!
So the diaspora of the village were forced to raise €30,000 to refurbish it themselves!

Use Google translate or watch the video..
http://www.alsat-m.tv/kopanice-banor...ojne-shkollen/

Schools in Macedonia are under the jurisdiction of the municipalities. Central government has no influence there. If there is anyone to blame, it's the local authorities (in your case - Albanian).
But if it's of any comfort to you, many Macedonian schools aren't in a batter shape either. See just a couple of examples:

Local school in Trpejca, Ohrid:


Elpida Karamanli school in Bitola:


Jovan Hadzi Konstantinov - Dzinot school in Veles:


Goce Delcev student hostel in Karpos,Skopje:


You should also come and see some schools in Macedonia's east. A horror movie can be filmed in some of them.
Most investments in schools here also come from "donations" rather than the municipalities (whether from diaspora people, NGO's, charity organizations etc,regardless), even though as I said, the care for these schools is officially the duty of the municipality.
This is not an Albanian problem, it's a problem for Macedonia in general.

No MTV2 is a minority channel.. not exclusively Albanian, it broadcasts news and programs in all minority languages

Oh geez, sorry I forgot the not-even 10% of Turkish,Serb and Vlach shows in the channel. My bad.

This is a ridiculous comment.. this isn't a right.. this is basic economics and marketing, all food items produced in the Balkans have multi lingual packaging simply because they export to regional countries.. this is not a right!

I don't remember being so just some 10 years ago, except maybe for products especially meant for export and not domestic use.
Now every Macedonian product I see in stores in Stip (where we have practically no Albanians) also has everything written in Albanian in it's label too.
I guess the Albanians of Stip will appreciate thi...Oh wait!

Yes they have these rights because blood was spilt for these rights, they had to sacrifice to receive these privileges that are quite normal in places like Switzerland or Belgium with a large number of minorities.

And for the third time - you have these rights for over 15 years now. But why stop here too,right?

So do Macedonians in Albanian majority municipalities!

Well there's your equality right there,mr.

It's symbolic... and shows that the state is as much ours as yours and that we are a factor in its history it's creation its stability and its prosperity and without us it can't funtion!

Wanna talk symbolism? Let's talk symbolism:

How about celebrating holidays with a Macedonian flag instead of Albanian?
During holidays there are heaps of Albanian flags in municipalities with an Albanian majority but not a single Macedonian flag?
I see you have no problem your flag to be placed next to the flags of USA or EU or even NATO, but why is it so painful for it to be placed next to the flag of the country you actually live in?

How about Ahmeti (like many other Albanians here) actually try to learn some Macedonian, the official language of the country of his birth and in whose governments he participates in for over 15 years now, as act of symbolism?
Why is it so painful for him to speak the official language of the country?

How about Albanians proudly singing the Macedonian national anthem instead of booing it, as a symbolism of their loyalty to this country?

Albanians of Macedonia seem to disrespect all symbols of the country they live in, and yet you dare speak to us about symbolism?

Yesss.. exactly Albanians live basically in the CENTER OF SKOPJE.. This is their geography...
Important objects and public buildings are largly purposely left not of Cair..
The Albanian parties of Skopje city has never gone under an urbanization phase like the rest of the city..
200m from then city center you still have no sewage connection but village style septic tanks!

Which Macedonia neighborhoods on the other side of the river still have septic tanks?

Didn't you read the last segment of my previous post Albo, or you purposely chose not to mention it?

My old district is just a bridge (some 30 m) away from the city center and is what you would call "ghetto" by your standards, just like Chair in Skopje, and it is populated entirely with Macedonians. Who should I blame for that, the Albanians? There are virtually no major institutions,landmarks or objects of significance in that district,mate! It's really that simple!
Just like the outskirt district with all the important buildings and institutions that by logic of geography should be a "ghetto" but is actually a quite nice place to live!
Stop distorting everything to fit your views.

We don't want to live off the back of the majority but nor do we want the majority to take from us and give little in return!

In reality, there are some 185 000 parasites (Macedonian and Albanian) that live off the backs of the rest (Macedonian and Albanian).
We share the same problems in this country - low living standard, inefficient institutions and corruption.
Like a wise person once said: "there are no races,nationalities or religions, there are only good people and bad people."
And there are plenty of both in all races,nationalities and religions.

[Risto the Great]

Try this on for size my dear ethnic Albanian friend. Stand next to me, say in a loud and proud voice "I, Albo, an ethnic Albanian of Macedonia stand next to my Macedonian brother and support him. As an ethnic Albanian, I will fight together with my Macedonian brother for our country and our name and the name of our majority. May OUR Macedonia be strong and live forever"


Nah, I doubt it too.

Yes fine..

Where is any evidence of this to date Albo? Examples of national cohesion please. HINT: Waving Albanians flags around is NOT an example of this.

I will add,
My full loyalty to Macedonia however isn't going to occur until Macedonia reflects the ture nature of its population and their wishes for equality before the law,
Where we can live and develop our regions and culture freely without discrimination and prejudice and where our importance in the stability and functioning of Macedonia isn't underestimated or seen as irrelevant.

Of course you will "add". It seems to be in the ethnic Albanian repertoire.

Albo, a recent utterly pathetic demand from ethnic Albanian leaders included the following:
"a say in negotiations with Greece regarding a dispute over the country's name."
Let me convey to you my belief that the majority of ethnic Albanians of Macedonia do not give one single fuck about Macedonia's name and the ethnic identity of Macedonians. That the above "demand" is so the ethnic Albanians can have a say about changing the name of Macedonia and Macedonians in order to achieve some fantastic new outcome that has not been achieved to date.

How can Macedonians accept ethnic Albanians as equals and not enemies or at the very least competitive elements within their own nation?

You have demonstrated your complete lack of awareness of the plight of the typical Macedonian in Macedonia. You avoid the equal comparisons of economic despair. And you cannot explain why other nations with similar size minorities offer LESS rights to their minorities than Macedonia. Your arguments are hollow and would never ever be tolerated by a stronger nation. Alas, Macedonia is down and ripe for kicking.

I strongly suggest to the moderator these discussions be removed from this thread and and shifted to a new topic. Perhaps it can be called "Hollow claims for human rights by ethnic Albanians of Macedonia".

[Tomche Makedonche]

I strongly suggest to the moderator these discussions be removed from this thread and and shifted to a new topic. Perhaps it can be called "Hollow claims for human rights by ethnic Albanians of Macedonia".

I second that.

[Phoenix]

...
I would rather use Finland as an example where the Sweeds are 6% and have official recognition.

Or
Netherlands (4 official languages)

I think you might want to revisit exactly what's "official" in Holland.

As for the examples of Switzerland and Belgium, that's not a model for any society to aspire to, in fact, they're quickly becoming soulless entities built on a supranational idea of past, extinct empires or dysfunctional and anachronistic fabrications like the EU and NATO.

Macedonia will remain the homeland of the Macedonian people, their language, culture, religion, history and future...it's minorities will and deserve to be protected and respected but they can never be in a position to exist in a parallel and separate society.

[vicsinad]

Looks like Albanians in Macedonia are showing how dedicated they are to their country of Macedonia and protecting it...giving the same Albanian symbol that they gave in the Greek army. This time over a dozen Albanians stationed in Veles barracks.

I wonder if Albo will just say that this is part of their cultural heritage and doesn't really mean anything. Is it really just about solidarity with Albanians in Greece? Where have they been to show their solidarity with Macedonians in Greece or Albania or even in Macedonia?

After Incident in Greece - Soldiers-Albanians in ARM Make Eagles

Soldiers-Albanians doing their service in ARM, with crossing of their hands, show the symbol of the Albanians - the double-headed eagle. This is the information that the Albanian portal "Shqiperie Ime" published. They claim that the Albanian soldiers declared solidarity with their colleagues from Greece, who were punished after causing the incident.

The title of the text in the Albanian portal "Shqiperie Ime" says "Greece Gets Angry for Double-Headed Eagle, It Got Macedonian Army's Message".

"Shqiperie Ime" also claims that, besides Albanians, among the group of soldiers showing eagles with their hands, there are also soldiers-Macedonians who wanted to show respect for the soldiers of Albanian nationality.

According to unconfirmed information, the photo was made in the barracks in Veles, and there are soldiers-Albanians from ARM in it, who voluntarily serving the military.

There was a similar incident in Greece a few days ago, as well. A photo of seven Greek soldiers, of Albanian descent, posing while making the famous double-headed eagle with their hands, caused numerous reactions in the Greek public.

The photo was made in the infantry unit of the Greek army in Missolonghi, Greece, and it disturbed the high military officials, who immediately ordered opening an investigation, while the functions of the commander of the unit, and the chief of staff of the infantry have been brought into question.

Right after the publishing of the photo, an order for identification of the soldiers in the photo was issued. According to the Greek authorities, not only is the photo scandalous, but it is also a gesture that represents a risk to Greece's national security.

Within hours, the Greek authorities got the names of the seven Albanians involved in the incident, who were taken in for interrogation. Their mobile phones were examined, in order to be seen whether they had made photos of the ambient or the weapon, and their calls were checked, as well, in order to be seen whether they had communicated with individuals considered a risk to the Greek national security.