Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

[Constellation]

Revolution will happen within Erdogan's term.

This is a bold statement. I think the situation in Turkey is a bit more complicated, and I do not this happening.

[Volokin]

I'm sure that the situation is far more complicated than what I know from my readings, but personally, I can see a revolution happening during Erdogan's term. The more backwards he takes them, the more likely revolution will come. The youth signaled their intention in the protests of 2013 and 2014.

Just my uninformed opinion, have not much of an idea on the reality of Turkey's political and social scene.

[Volokin]

Turkey Moves to Ban Twitter, Facebook Again

January 14, 2015, Wednesday @ 22:50 in World | Views: 29
Turkey Moves to Ban Twitter, Facebook Again The Constitutional Court unblocked Twitter on April 2, 2014, and YouTube on May 29, 2014, citing freedom of expression, but the ruling drew the ire of the government.
Turkish authorities have warned that all websites publishing alleged records related to Syrian-bound trucks belonging to the Turkish intelligence agency that were stopped by a prosecutor last year will be banned, presaging a possible new ban on Twitter and Facebook.

Twitter has quickly removed the content, while many other websites have not yet complied, Hurriyet Daily News reports.

On Jan. 2, 2014, two Syria-bound trucks belonging to Turkey’s National Intelligence Organization (MİT) were stopped by a prosecutor who sought to have the gendarmerie search the vehicles. The following month, a Turkish court issued a ban on the publication of news related to the incident.

A number of documents were leaked online on Jan. 13. The signed proceedings related to the search allegedly show that arms belonging to MİT were found in the trucks. Speculation has been rife that the arms were destined for jihadists in Syria.

On Jan. 14, Turkey's Radio and Television Supreme Council (RTÜK) recalled a March 2014 government decree that banned the coverage of the issue, referring to Law No. 6112.

According to an article in the law, Turkey's prime minister or a cabinet minister has the authority to impose a gag order on the media "in cases obviously required by national security or when public order is very likely to be broken."

Turkish officials, now equipped with the authority to block websites even without a court ruling, warned Jan. 14 that the gag order would be strictly imposed on the Internet. Any website, including Facebook and Twitter, will be blocked if they do not remove the leaked documents.

Twitter quickly withheld the sanctioned content on Jan. 14, dodging the possible Turkish ban. Facebook, on the other hand, has not yet complied with the decision, Turkish authorities said, noting that the talks were continuing.

“There are several court decisions against the websites that published the signed proceedings,” a Turkish official told daily Hürriyet, stressing that the “procedure is ongoing.”

Turkey blocked access to Twitter, hours after then-Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan vowed to close down the social media platform on March 20, 2014.

YouTube was banned in Turkey on March 27, hours after a top-secret government meeting on Syria was leaked allegedly depicting government officials discussing a possible false-flag operation on Turkey in an effort to drag Turkey into Syria’s war.

The Constitutional Court unblocked Twitter on April 2, 2014, and YouTube on May 29, 2014, citing freedom of expression, but the ruling drew the ire of the government.

http://www.independent.mk/articles/13346/Turkey+Moves+to+Ban+Twitter%2C+Facebook+Again

[Volokin]

A Mysterious Twitter Whistleblower Is Trying to Take Down the President of Turkey

January 18, 2015 | 3:30 am

An anonymous whistleblower is captivating Turkey by tweeting revelations from the upper echelons of Turkish politics. The latest claims are the most explosive yet: The whistleblower says Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan plotted terrorist-style attacks on Turkish civilians to frame his opponents.

The whistleblower, who operates on Twitter as Fuat Avni (@FuatAnviFuat, or @FuatAvniEng for tweets in English), claims he's male, works alone, and is part of Erdogan's inner circle. In Turkey, a country that ranks 154th out of 180 in the press freedom index compiled by Reporters without Borders, Fuat Avni has shattered the tightly controlled political discourse and enthralled Turks.

"Fuat Avni's consistent credibility has established him as a reliable source of information," Greg Barton, an expert on Turkish politics at Monash University, told VICE News. "The tweets are taken seriously because they have substance behind them; they predict something breaking that is then confirmed to be true."

In the latest series of tweets, posted January 9, he claims Erdogan and the head of Turkey's National Intelligence Organization, Hakan Fidan, are planning "a terror act that would kill dozens of innocent people in a large city," while framing the Gülenists — a splinter faction of Erdogan's government and his main opposition — for the attack.

Fuat Avni's ability to expose sensitive information about the government has made him a folklore figure in contemporary Turkey. He has more than a million followers, but Turks are more familiar with newspaper and television coverage of his predictions.

The newspaper Today's Zaman went as far as to name him person of the year at the end of 2014.

In the editorial announcing the award, Today's Zaman said, "Fuat Avni is clearly one of the biggest problems for the government," and that he "is probably on Erdogan's 'most wanted' list given the damage he has done."

"His most recent accurate report was about the crackdown on media on December 14 which directly targeted the Zaman media group, including Today's Zaman," the editorial said. "Hours before the detention of Zaman editor-in-chief Ekrem Dumanli, Fuat Avni tweeted tipoffs about the operation, along with the names of the police officers, prosecutors and others who would conduct the operation allegedly ordered by Erdogan."

A look at Erdogan's opulent $615 million palace. Read more here.

Erdogan was elected prime minister in 2003, where he remained until he won the Turkish presidency in 2014. He and many within his team were hit with corruption allegations in 2013. These allegations, some of which came from Fuat Avni, remain unproven. Erdogan continues to protest his innocence, claiming the allegations are part of a conspiracy against him by supporters of the self-exiled opposition leader Fethullah Gülen, who he claims is attempting a coup.

Since the corruption scandal broke, Erdogan is seen by some to have become increasingly tyrannical. He has imprisoned many from within the police and army while reining in media opposition, further damaging the freedom of the Turkish press.

Even so, the latest claim of a plot to terrorize the Turkish people and frame the Gülen-led opposition group sounds fantastical. But, Barton said, nothing should be ruled out in the current environment of Turkish politics.

"These latest tweets are incredible, literally beyond belief," said Barton. "In another country and another context the claims would be ludicrous but in contemporary Turkey they're plausible and there's cause for genuine concern.

"What Erdogan's been saying about Gülen in recent times is equally incredible and the way he's moved against Gülen make these claims credible," Barton continued. "He's attempted to portray Gülen and his supporters as violent extremists but Gülen is against violence, he spoke out against the attacks in Paris and it's hard to conceive how people inspired by him would see the use of violence as justified."

Barton viewed the claims in the context of the porous Turkish-Syria border. The border has become a gateway for foreign fighters, including the ranks of the Islamic State and al Qaeda heading to Syria to fight against the regime of President Bashar al-Assad.

"Thousands of extremists have travelled through Turkey in recent months," Barton said. "This is an embarrassment for Erdogan and it's plausible he could be planning this attack to turn this narrative around, putting the negative focus on Gülenists."

The Islamic State appears to operate in a tacit détente with Turkey. Read more here.

According to Barton, there is concern that Erdogan is allowing fighters to cross from Turkey into Syria, and that his ideology has shifted in support of extremist Islam.

"It seems Erdogan has ordered his security agency to turn a blind eye to groups trying to get into Syria from Turkey and there's increasing concern that Erdogan has ideological sympathies with extremist Islam," Barton said. "There are many within Turkish defense concerned about this but Erdogan has used his new powers as president to silence dissent by replacing many within the police and army."

In a series of raids, which Fuat Avni correctly predicted, this purge extended to the media, with many senior journalists and editors being arrested across the country.

"It's a mixed picture, there is a lot of robust journalism from fearless journalists speaking out freely," Barton said. "Many journalists have been imprisoned in the past for having links with extremist groups but over the past two years Erdogan has turned on a lot of mainstream journalists who are not seen as endorsing any political parties, let alone extremists. His argument is that there's an international conspiracy against him with the creation of a parallel state but this is becoming more and more fanciful."

Turkey's President tells EU to 'mind its own business' over media arrests. Read more here.

The whistleblower's identity has been the subject of widespread speculation. Some suggest he's a member Erdogan's inner circle, others a supporter of Gülen. In an interview with Vocativ, conducted over Twitter, Fuat Avni confirmed the former, denied the latter, and claimed to operate the account alone.

"There is no team behind it [the Twitter account], only me. I don't need to get any information from anyone because for years I have been working in sensitive positions within the AKP [Turkey's ruling party]. Because of my position, I have information about people at critical points," Avni said, distancing his work from the Gülenists. "I have been following their [the Gülenists] activities for years and appreciate most of them. Apart from that, I have no link whatsoever."

Barton speculated that due to the deteriorating situation within Turkey and the disassociation of many senior civil servants and government officials, Fuat Avni could have multiple sources.

"Erdogan's fallen out with many senior colleagues and as more people become disillusioned with his leadership and the direction Turkey's headed in, one would imagine there are a lot of people feeding information to Fuat Avni," Barton said.

The other mystery is Fuat Avni's motivation for the very public and dangerous position he has taken.

"There are a lot of people within Turkish media and politics who are passionate and concerned about the direction Turkey's moving in," Barton said. "The tweets read like someone who has a genuine concern. It's plausible that Fuat Avni's linked to the Gülen movement but the question is whether the tweets are motivated by secularism or genuine concern and it seems to be the latter — genuine concern."

https://news.vice.com/article/a-mysterious-twitter-whistleblower-is-trying-to-take-down-the-president-of-turkey?utm_source=vicenewsfb

Interesting stuff. https://twitter.com/FuatAvniEng

[Soldier of Macedon]

Turkey keeps becoming less secular

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-child-rape-protest-thousands-law-men-freed-marry-victim-istanbul-ankara-izmir-akp-erdogan-a7428166.html

Turkey child rape protests: Thousands take to streets against law that would let men off if they marry victim

Thousands have taken to the streets of Istanbul and other cities in Turkey to protest against a bill that would allow child rapists to walk free if they marry their victims. The country’s government insists the law would help resolve legal challenges caused by widespread child marriage in the country, yet critics argue the bill legitimises rape.

In Istanbul, protesters clapped and chanted: “We will not shut up. We will not obey. Withdraw the bill immediately.” About 3,000 people gathered in Istanbul’s Kadikoy square, many waving placards that said: “Rape cannot be legitimised,” and “AKP, take your hands off my body” – in reference to the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) that proposed the bill. Similar demonstrations were held in other cities, including Ankara, Izmir and Trabzon.

If the law passes, men who sexually abuse girls under 18 without “force, threat or any restriction on consent” and marry them could have their convictions quashed or avoid prosecution. The proposed change would apply to cases between 2005 and 16 November 2016. Protester Cigdem Evcil told the BBC: “I am a mother. How am I supposed to react to this? I can`t believe it, it's not normal, it doesn't make sense. “If I let this happen to my daughter, if the mothers in this country let this happen, it means we are not mothers.”

Another protester told Associated Press: “Pardoning the crime of sexual assault, or dropping it due to prescription, is out of the question. “People who commit sexual assault and rape crimes cannot be cleared.” One of the women protesters who gave her name as Ruya told AFP: “We will not allow the AKP to acquit and set free rapists in this country. “Women will resist and take to the streets until this law and similar other laws are withdrawn.” Another protester, a middle-aged man named Ugur, attended the protest with his 14-year-old daughter. “I am concerned about my daughter's future,” he told AFP. “[The] AKP is passing any law they want in the parliament.”

The AKP enjoys a comfortable majority in the 550-seat parliament, holding 317 seats. “That's the maximum we can do. To protest,” he added. The UN children’s fund said it was “deeply concerned” about the draft bill. “These abject forms of violence against children are crimes which should be punished as such, and in all cases the best interest of the child should prevail,” said spokesman Christophe Boulierac. MPs approved the draft law in its initial reading on Thursday and it will be voted on again on Tuesday, but following the contriversy Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildrim has ordered the AKP to suspend talks with the opposition about the law.

Mr Yildirim said the bill was intended to release men jailed after marrying underage girls in religious ceremonies who had received the consent of a girl’s family. He rejected suggestions that the plan amounted to an “amnesty for rape”. Justice Minister Bekir Bozdag similarly rejected the claim, saying: “The bill will certainly not bring amnesty to rapists.” “This is a step taken to solve a problem in some parts of our country,” he told a Nato meeting in Istanbul. Yet Turkish bar association Izmir Barosu said in a statement: “This proposal is clearly an attack on protecting children from sexual abuse.

“We must make clear that any regulation against the protection of sexual abuse of children has no place in the public conscience. “The proposed regulation is intended to institutionalise child abuse. Physical and sexual violence against children and women is a crime.” The proposals have been criticised by pro-government groups. The Women’s and Democracy Association – whose deputy chairman is President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's daughter Sumeyye Erdogan Bayraktar – said a major problem with the bill would be proving what constituted force or consent.

It said: “How can the ‘own will’ of such a young girl be identified? We would like to draw attention to issues that might arise in case of it coming into force.” A petition on change.org urging the authorities to stop the legislation has accrued more than 600,000 signatures. The bill comes after Turkey’s constitutional court in July annulled part of the criminal code which classified all sexual acts with children under 15 as sexual abuse, a change that also prompted uproar. Although the legal age of consent is 18 in Turkey, child marriage is widespread, particularly in the south-east. The country has one of the highest rates of child marriage in Europe, with an estimated 15 per cent of girls married before their 18th birthday.

[Amphipolis]

This is a ridiculous article. The truth is carefully hidden in one line (among the 26) but who will bother to read all of it, instead of just the title or the first paragraph.

"Mr Yildirim said the bill was intended to release men jailed after marrying underage girls in religious ceremonies who had received the consent of a girl’s family."

[Soldier of Macedon]

This is a ridiculous article. The truth is carefully hidden in one line (among the 26) but who will bother to read all of it, instead of just the title or the first paragraph.

Yep, it was carefully hidden in the article in the hope that nobody would actually read it. Now who's being ridiculous.

"Mr Yildirim said the bill was intended to release men jailed after marrying underage girls in religious ceremonies who had received the consent of a girl’s family."

Only in a backward society would the consent of the girl's family regarding marriage matter more than the consent of the girl herself. But even more disturbing in this article (which, not surprisingly, went way over your head) is the below:

The bill comes after Turkey’s constitutional court in July annulled part of the criminal code which classified all sexual acts with children under 15 as sexual abuse, a change that also prompted uproar.

Therefore, when both the bill and the annulment are considered in the same context, that means some idiot can rape a child and then avoid criminal charges by simply marrying her (with her parents' consent, of course ). Ridiculous for most, except those who seem to harbour some deluded Ottoman nostalgia.

[Amphipolis]

By the way, this lovely Turkish film is about these issues.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3966404/

[Risto the Great]

Greeks working together with Turks. Been happening for centuries.

[Soldier of Macedon]

By the way, this lovely Turkish film is about these issues.

Not quite, but it is somewhat analogous. Given that you found the assertions in the original article of this thread ridiculous, do you find the actions of the guardians in this film acceptable?

[vicsinad]

This is a ridiculous article. The truth is carefully hidden in one line (among the 26) but who will bother to read all of it, instead of just the title or the first paragraph.

"Mr Yildirim said the bill was intended to release men jailed after marrying underage girls in religious ceremonies who had received the consent of a girl’s family."

Quite the contrary. In addition to the men having to serve jail time, the girl's family should also go to jail for willfully subjecting their daughters to such crimes. The parents are the enablers and should spend just as much time -- or more -- in jail for doing this to their own children.

[Amphipolis]

Yep, it was carefully hidden in the article in the hope that nobody would actually read it. Now who's being ridiculous.

Only in a backward society would the consent of the girl's family regarding marriage matter more than the consent of the girl herself. But even more disturbing in this article (which, not surprisingly, went way over your head) is the below: he bill comes after Turkey’s constitutional court in July annulled part of the criminal code which classified all sexual acts with children under 15 as sexual abuse, a change that also prompted uproar.

Therefore, when both the bill and the annulment are considered in the same context, that means some idiot can rape a child and then avoid criminal charges by simply marrying her (with her parents' consent, of course ). Ridiculous for most, except those who seem to harbour some deluded Ottoman nostalgia.

1. Yep, that’s what I’m saying, and it’s not even the worst or oddest thing we meet in journalism.

2. The consent of the girl is obviously needed. That’s not the problem. The modern-western view is obviously worried in the cases where young brides are passively and not enthusiastically accepting decisions that are mostly of their parents (just like the second girl of the movie). Of course NOT all sexual acts with children under 15 constitute sexual abuse and one obvious case is sex in marriage.

3. That would be an extreme scenario that needs the consent of the rapist, the bride AND her family. It would also depend on how much of a “rapist” the man is, what his age is, etc. The idea is that a family saves the honor of her dishonored daughter.

Greeks working together with Turks. Been happening for centuries.

Not quite, but it is somewhat analogous. Given that you found the assertions in the original article of this thread ridiculous, do you find the actions of the guardians in this film acceptable?

Quite the contrary. In addition to the men having to serve jail time, the girl's family should also go to jail for willfully subjecting their daughters to such crimes. The parents are the enablers and should spend just as much time -- or more -- in jail for doing this to their own children.

These are the practices under which my grandmother or my great-grandmother got married. Maybe, it was different in your village.

Calling it backward or wanting to discourage or erase it from society in Turkey is one thing. Calling it a child rape encouraged by the parents is another. In Greece now, marriages in early age are common mostly within primitive groups (gypsies, Muslims of Thrace etc.). The Greek Law says 14+, but I think the Law does not apply to special "cultural" groups so that it does not suppress them.

Take a quick look at gypsy marriages in Greece. These girls are 12+ or 13+. The boys are also very young.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYZMkPjUlOQ

==

[vicsinad]

These are the practices under which my grandmother or my great-grandmother got married. Maybe, it was different in your village.

These are not practices which my great-grandparents got married.

But what's the point of even saying that? Because something "was" at one point doesn't mean it "should be" today. We live in a completely different society -- for better or for worse -- and these practices suppress free will and foster hierarchies within society.

Calling it backward or wanting to discourage or erase it from society in Turkey is one thing. Calling it a child rape encouraged by the parents is another.

Call it whatever you want. The end result is the same: a young child, without a fully developed brain or body, is given away to an older man. Call it "the beauty of life" for all I care. The parents -- and the male -- should still be held accountable for their actions.

In Greece now, marriages in early age are common mostly within primitive groups (gypsies, Muslims of Thrace etc.).

You forgot to add Greeks to that grouping of primitives. Have you seen how Golden Dawn behaves?

[Amphipolis]

These are not practices which my great-grandparents got married.
But what's the point of even saying that? Because something "was" at one point doesn't mean it "should be" today. We live in a completely different society -- for better or for worse -- and these practices suppress free will and foster hierarchies within society.
Call it whatever you want. The end result is the same: a young child, without a fully developed brain or body, is given away to an older man. Call it "the beauty of life" for all I care. The parents -- and the male -- should still be held accountable for their actions.
You forgot to add Greeks to that grouping of primitives. Have you seen how Golden Dawn behaves?

Don’t worry. By 1900, arranged marriages- where the main role was played by the parents rather than the couple itself and especially the bride- were the main practice in royal families, the upper class, the middle class and the lower class. Yet, it didn’t cover 100%. Romantic stories also existed as we know from novels.

Not sure which practices you want to discourage or forbid. Early marriages, arranged marriages, marriages with (far) older men (and how far is that?) or their combination.

Gypsies are a good example: culture and mentality are not easily uprooted. Girls and boys are “engaged” after a parent decision at the age of… 2 to 9 and grow up knowing that they will get married to this person when they get 13-14 and have to stay faithful to each other. I would like to see a legal proposal about them and also your opinion if that would be fair. A political correct view would say this is a trick of the white men so that gypsies stop having so many children. Also since gypsies are criminals (as Donald Trump would say,) the young guy in the youtube show I posted gives some hilarious answers. “I had to marry early, before I had other problems like getting into jail”.

I don’t know if Golden Dawn has a marriage policy because they’re banned from TV, but the average marriage age for Greece is 33 for men and 30 for women now. This is “fully developed brain and body”, and… probably a little too developed. For women, 30-35 is usually the last chance if they schedule to have a baby.

[Karposh]

I think children should be allowed to be children for as long as they can. Kids are growing up way too quickly these days and their innocence is taken away from them too soon I feel. The sexualisation of kids in TV and advertising is a well documented recent phenomenon that really needs to stop. The inappropriate images of kids made to look and act much older than they really are by advertising and show business executives is plain evil if you ask me.

It makes me wonder whether the end goal is to wind the clock back to ancient times when paedophilia was seen as the norm. No matter how you look at it, any adult man (or adult woman, for that matter) who has sex with a minor is a rapist and a paedophile.

I have nothing against arranged marriages as long as the ones being promised are of age, not coerced and in agreement. It is true that people in general are getting married at a much older age these days as compared to a few generations ago. There are many contemporary reasons for this and it is especially a burden for modern women who are often struck by the realisation that they could miss the boat on starting a family of their own because they have left it so late. So, in that respect, arranged marriages do have some merit.

However, there is a big difference between the arranged marriages of our grandparents in the village to what is being discussed here in this disturbing topic. Promising your 12 year old daughter to your 40 year old neighbour in exchange for a couple of goats (an exaggerated example but one which no doubt exists), is indeed a primitive, deplorable and despicable practice amongst some cultures of the world.

The arranged marriages amongst the European Royals were often made to strengthen ties and not before the betrothed were of age.

Arranged marriages aside, romantic stories did indeed exist in the village (and not just in novels). Case in point is my grandmother (on my mum’s side). She was promised to a young man from her native village that she wasn’t in love with yet decided to go through with the marriage out of a sense of duty. What no one knew was that she was really in love with a handsome young man from the next village (my grandfather) whom she arranged to elope with on her wedding day. The story goes that my grandfather was devastated by the news that his sweetheart would be married off to someone else and he moped around miserably for weeks. That is, until his mates, feeling sorry for him, could not take it any longer and convinced him to elope with her whereby they helped devise a plan to that end to get the lovesick fool out of his slump. My grandmother passed away in 2003 and, sure enough, a couple of months later, my grandfather followed her to the other world.