Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

[freifrau]

Freifrau, would appreciate an answer to the above if you're willing to oblige.

I meant the reverse (all citizens should speak the n.1 language = Macedonian)

No doubt that it would be also useful and would bring people closer ,if the Macedonians also learned Albanian...but this is more general and i don't think thsi should be obligatory.

[freifrau]

Prolet, I must say, my eyes were as wide as saucers, I have not seen you be so blunt! And I understand and agree with what you have stated, you made your point bratko.

Freifrau Prolet has stated facts. The Albanians do NOT speak Macedonian, they are emploed above the Macedonians, they hold governmental postings, they are rude, arrogant and above the law, they do not respect the Macedonian people and they are demanding universities in Albanian!
Am not sure where you are coming from, you seem very pro - Albanian.
In my country, Australia, we speak English. We do not make demands on the government here, we are educated right through to university level English, nor as a minority group do we demand the states to redraw their borders here and call it Macedonia.
The Albanians can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. Most of them are Kosovo refugees who spit on the Macedonians, my fellow brothers and sisters and relatives, they were forced upon us by the likes of yankee doodle dandy and the bullshit EU has given Macedonia grief enough over them.
The Turkish citizens in RoM, and most of them are muslim, have lived in harmony with the Macedonians for centuries, ,they are not demanding greater Turkey as the ALbanians have taken over entire villages.
Perhaps if Macedonians in Germany were to do the same as the Albanians are doing and have done to RoM, and demand piece of Germany to be even called Macedonia, you may acquiesce and say that is good
If you dont agree with this, and if you continue to be derogatory to Turkey and our allies in who recognise us, perhaps you should be on another forum, because you are trying my patience , you are being insulting and I agree with the stance our diplomatic colleague here Prolet has taken .
Let us partition Germany and slice it into 4 pieces, let Turkey flood in and then allow Turkey to have Turksih Universities and rename your nationalistic country, and rascist countrey at that if everyone is following your stance
am sorry if this offends you, but your approach is a mite offensive

Julie...really..did you read my above posts!?
Where do i say all these weird things you are writing?

You are really hostile...why is that? I am used to friendly Macedonian people...and especially girls...don't spoil the image !

[Soldier of Macedon]

I meant the reverse (all citizens should speak the n.1 language = Macedonian)

No doubt that it would be also useful and would bring people closer ,if the Macedonians also learned Albanian...but this is more general and i don't think thsi should be obligatory.

I understood what you stated earlier about everybody learning Macedonian, my question was not in relation to that.

Thanks for the answer, but I would never agree to Macedonians having to learn Albanian in Macedonia, they can and should do that if they are in Albania.

What you consider bringing people 'closer', I consider a diluting of Macedonian integrity in Macedonia. Going back to my previous question about the Turkish language in Germany, it is not about percentage, German should always remain the only mandatory language in Germany, as should Macedonian in Macedonia, Turkish in Turkey, and so on.

[Onur]

Germany DID horrible crimes during WWII.
Germany was responsible for the Holocaust.

I admitt all these..and almost everyone here does exactly the same.

On the other hand Onur has only irony for the victims of the armenian genocide.
That's a difference of mentality.

You gotta admit cuz you guys don't have a right to deny. Do not try to label Turks as criminals who did a genocide like Germans. Do not search for a companion for your horrible crime.

The case with the Armenians and Jews has no relation whatsoever. We lived together with Armenians for like 900+ years and they started a civil war here at WW-1. They formed several terrorist organizations first and then they joined French and Russian army against us.

The casualty number of 1,5 million is a lie but during same year of 1915, over 1 million Turks died in Anatolia. We excavated 10s of mass graves all over eastern Anatolia with massacred Turkish people by the Armenians. In short, they wanted to create Armenian kingdom with the help of western powers but they failed and they completely destroyed the possibility of living together again. So, ottoman authorities expelled them to the nearest territories of the empire, today`s Syria, Armenia and Azerbaijan. Then the ones who allied with Russians settled into today`s Armenia. The ones who joined French legionnaires immigrated to France and some gone to USA. Thats how Armenian diaspora formed in EU and USA and now the children of these people are sworn enemy of everything related with the Turks.

Now tell me the similarities with your Jewish genocide;
Did Jews allied with British during WW-2? Did Jews massacre Germans and put them into the mass graves? In Turkey, we only expelled the Armenians at eastern Anatolia who involved in crimes but the ones in Izmir and Istanbul excluded from it. Did Germans do such a thing while sending Jews into the gas chambers? About 65 men who were in charge of Armenian people security during the expulsion have been stand trial and punished in 1915 cuz they couldn't protect them from the attacks of local Kurdish gangs. Did Nazis punished German officers for their incapability or crimes against Jews?
I can continue if you want....

Also i wanna remind one important difference. When people talks about Jewish genocide, they say "Nazis killed Jews" but never Germans as a whole even tough biggest majority of Germans was Nazi supporters. BUT when it comes to the Turkey, pro-Armenians always say that "Turks did genocide"!!! There was no such a thing as genocide but wtf is this? Why when it comes to Jews, it`s the Nazis but when it comes to the Armenians, it`s the Turks, all of 76 million people, even add Azeris too, so 90 million people. Even this indicates something to me about their accusations.

Have you ever read the reports of amnesty international and Helsinki watch about the subject?
There are separate reports about every country.

No doubt that i condemn any act of violence against minorities in Europe. 100%.
I can't find a single excuse about it.

These reports are always biased against Turkey and some other countries. USA still has death sentence and they kill people with gunmen squad. Torture is just a norm in Iraqi and Gauntanamo prisons of USA. Americans also killed over 1 million Iraqi in just 7 years. German neo-nazis burns 5-10 people alive ever year and beats 100s in the streets. French expels gypsies for no reason. Where are human rights organizations against them?

While in Turkey, we give decent homes and money to gypsies for free and in Macedonia, all minorities enjoys more rights than any other EU country.

[Prolet]

Turks are turning their backs on the EU

Onur, Is it true that in the second half of this year Turkey has had a 10.3% economic rise? IMF is also predicting that Turkey will be the second most powerful economy after Germany in 20 years.

Macedonia is looking at a 2% rise for this year, 3.5% next year and 5% by 2012 which is still very good considering the fact that alot of the EU countries like Bulgaria and Greece are struggling badly.

http://www.idividi.com.mk/vesti/balkan/626508/index.html

[Onur]

Turks are turning their backs on the EU

Yes and it`s becoming more and more evident every year. What`s surprising is most of the highly educated people with a decent life in Turkey strongly oppose EU and only some of the relatively poor people still supports EU(probably thinking of going EU countries for work while educated ones don't have any intention to leave Turkey for working abroad).

EU support is at all time low according to the latest international survey of the German Marshall Fund`s "Transatlantic Trend Survey 2010" project;

Turkey and the West — Drifting Away
Turkish foreign policy occupied center stage in the media this year. On May 16, 2010, Brazil and Turkey reached a deal with Iran to swap nuclear fuel, and Turkey later voted “no” on a new round of economic sanctions against Iran during a UN Security Council meeting. Later in May, Israeli commandos raided an aid flotilla headed to Gaza which led to the death of nine Turkish activists and further strained Turkish-Israeli relations. Despite these difficulties, Turkey continues to be an important NATO member and a candidate for membership in the European Union. Recent events, however, have led many analysts to point to an increasingly assertive Turkish foreign policy. With no clear pattern in alliance-building with the West, Turkey is almost certainly moving in a direction of less predictability on foreign affairs, which American and European leaders need to account for in the future.





Turkish public opinion seems to reflect the country’s new focus on the Middle East. Compared with last year’s results, the percentage of Turks who said Turkey should act in closest cooperation with the countries of the Middle East on international matters doubled to 20% (see Chart 13). This was accompanied by a nine-point decline in those who said Turkey should cooperate with EU countries(13%) and those who said Turkey should act alone on international matters (34%). Preferences to cooperate with Russia(5%) and the United States(6%) were equally low.

When asked what should be the top priority for the American president and European leaders, fighting international terrorism remained the top concern for a plurality of Turks(38%) — more so than the economy(21%). The number of Turks who thought working to ease tensions in the Middle East should be the top priority doubled from last year to 15%. The latter is another indicator of a stronger Turkish focus on its immediate neighbors.


DECLINING SUPPORT FOR NATO AND THE EU
The Turkish public often holds markedly different opinions on issues concerning values and attitudes related to foreign policy compared with its American and European Union counterparts. Such divergence raises the question of whether Turks still find NATO, the most emblematic organization of the Western alliance, essential to their own security. There has been a notable decline in support for NATO since the first wave of Transatlantic Trends was conducted in Turkey. The majority of Turks (53%) found NATO essential in 2004, but by 2010 this support had eroded significantly to less than one-in-three (30%).

The decline in support for the country’s European Union membership is even more dramatic (see Chart 14). In 2004, 73% of the Turkish public said membership would be a good thing, but the support dropped to 38% by 2010. This lack of enthusiasm toward membership is matched by those already in the European Union. The French (49%) and Germans (44%) were the most likely to say that Turkey’s EU membership would be a bad thing. Nevertheless, roughly half of EU respondents (51%) still believed that it is somewhat or very likely that Turkey will eventually join the European Union (see Chart 15). This forecast was not shared by the Turkish public as 63% think it is not likely that their country will join the European Union, including 34% of the public saying that it is not likely at all.



The American public continued its support for Turkey’s EU membership. Two-in-five Americans (41%) said that Turkey’s membership in the EU would be a good thing. This was roughly twice as much as the average support among the EU countries surveyed (23%). Only in Romania did a plurality(43%) of respondents believe that Turkey’s EU membership would be a good thing, showing more support for the idea than the Turks themselves (38%).


NOT ENOUGH COMMON VALUES WITH THE WEST
In 2008, a Turkish majority (55%) felt Turkey has such different values from the West that Turkey is not part of the West. By 2010, this percentage dropped to 48% but was still more than those who agreed that Turkey has enough common values with the West to be part of it (30%). A majority of EU respondents (58%) agreed that Turkey does not have enough common values to be part of the West. Germans (73%) were the most likely to say Turkey has different values from the West, while Romania was the only EU country surveyed where a slight majority (52%) felt that Turkey has enough common values with the West to be part of it.

Experts on Turkish foreign policy often emphasize that the country’s new, stronger regional role is built on the idea that Turkey will likely play a “soft power” role in the region. The majority of Turks (60%) indeed agreed that economic power is more important than military power. However, this level of support for soft power is much less than in the EU countries surveyed, where, on average, 86% of the public agreed that economic power is more important than military power. Americans were somewhat less likely to agree with the importance of economic power over military power, but 78% still agreed with this statement. Forty-two percent of Turks agreed that under some conditions, war is necessary to obtain justice, a seven-point increase over last year. This is well above the average in the EU countries surveyed (27%) but much less than the United States (77%).

http://dosyalar.hurriyet.com.tr/GMF_Transatlantik_Egilimler%202010_Raporu.pdf

http://www.gmfus.org/trends/doc/2010_English_Top.pdf

They don't want us in EU and Turks don't want to be an EU member. I don't know how and when our 50 year old journey of EU gonna end.

Weird thing is, while Europeans strongly oppose Turkey`s membership(except Romania, Hungary and UK who supports Turkey`s membership), %60-70 of them says that Turkey will be a member sooner or later and Turkey`s membership will be beneficial for their own economy but while Turkish people strongly oppose EU membership, we also say that we will never be EU member and EU membership can be bad for our economy.

[Prolet]

Onur, What about this years record GDP growth in Turkey?

[Onur]

Onur, Is it true that in the second half of this year Turkey has had a 10.3% economic rise? IMF is also predicting that Turkey will be the second most powerful economy after Germany in 20 years.

Macedonia is looking at a 2% rise for this year, 3.5% next year and 5% by 2012 which is still very good considering the fact that alot of the EU countries like Bulgaria and Greece are struggling badly.

Yes, our GDP raised by 10.3% at second quarter of 2010. It was 11.5% at first quarter. I think we surpassed China at second quarter and became the biggest raising economy in the world for 2010 so far but analysts says that we probably will finish this year with 6% increase. I believe if a particular country`s GDP doesn't decrease this year, it can be considered as a success cuz of the economical crises in whole western world. So, Macedonia`s economical forecast is also quite good in that regard.


Also yes, both IMF and World Bank says that Turkey will be 2nd largest economy after Germany in Europe in 20 years of time. We are already 5-6th atm but as long as EU members economical crises continues, we will quickly close the gap with Spain, UK, Italy and may surpass them earlier than 20 years. We have a young and educated population but EU countries have aging population with a lot of retired people. So it`s not that difficult to understand our rise and their fall. Europe`s problem is, they constantly need foreign immigrants to keep their economy alive but they cant erase their racist philosophy at the same time, so they cannot provide relatively comfortable environment for immigrants like USA or Australia.


Actually, we could be in today`s position economically, 10-15 years earlier but 15 years ago, most of our brightest people was aiming to go USA or EU countries to work but for the last 6-7 years, this trend completely stopped. Now, our educated working force believes in Turkey and they wanna stay here. Most of these people also completely oppose EU membership and they prefer EU to be Turkey`s trade partner, nothing else. Even the ones who gone to USA or EU started to come back, so the immigration trend of 15 years ago, completely reversed. I saw in the newspapers the last month, 85 Turkish scientist and professors from Harvard, MIT, Yale or workers in Silicon Valley immigrated back to Turkey from USA, all together. They will work in their home country from now on.

[Gocka]

Protest in Turkey

I am surprised no one has bothered to post this, you never know what these kind of things can develop into.

Turkish police battle protesters after Erdogan warning

(Reuters) - Turkish riot police using tear gas and water cannon battled protesters for control of Istanbul's Taksim Square, hours after Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan demanded an immediate end to 10 days of demonstrations.

Istanbul Governor Huseyin Avni Mutlu appeared on television, declaring that police operations would continue day and night until the square, focus of demonstrations against Erdogan, was cleared.

Police fired volleys of tear gas canisters into a crowd of thousands - people in office clothes as well as youths in masks who had fought skirmishes throughout the day - scattering them into side streets and nearby hotels. Water cannon swept across the square targeting stone-throwers in masks.

The protesters, who accuse Erdogan of overreaching his authority after 10 years in power and three election victories, thronged the steep narrow lanes that lead down to the Bosphorus waterway. Many drifted gradually back into the square and lit bonfires, only to be scattered by more tear gas.

Governor Mutlu said 30 people had been wounded on Tuesday.

Erdogan had earlier called on protesters to stay out of Taksim, where a heavy-handed police crackdown on a rally against development of the small Gezi Park abutting the square triggered an unprecedented wave of protest.

Gezi Park has been turned into a ramshackle settlement of tents by leftists, environmentalists, liberals, students and professionals who see the development plan as symptomatic of overbearing government.

The protests, during which demonstrators used fireworks and petrol bombs, have posed a stark challenge to Erdogan's authority and divided the country. In an indication of the impact of the protests on investor confidence, the central bank said it would intervene if needed to support the Turkish lira.

Erdogan, who denies accusations of authoritarian behavior, declared he would not yield.

"They say the prime minister is rough. So what was going to happen here? Were we going to kneel down in front of these (people)?" Erdogan said as action to clear the square began.

"If you call this roughness, I'm sorry, but this Tayyip Erdogan won't change," he told a meeting of his AK party's parliamentary group.

Western allies have expressed concern about the troubles in an important NATO ally bordering Syria, Iraq and Iran. Washington has in the past held up Erdogan's Turkey as an Islamic democracy that could be emulated elsewhere in the Middle East.

Victor in three consecutive elections, Erdogan says the protests are engineered by vandals, terrorist elements and unnamed foreign forces. His critics, who say conservative religious elements have won out over centrists in the AK party, accuse him of inflaming the crisis with unyielding talk.

MARKET TURMOIL

"A comprehensive attack against Turkey has been carried out," Erdogan said. "The increase in interest rates, the fall in the stock markets, the deterioration in the investment environment, the intimidation of investors - the efforts to distort Turkey's image have been put in place as a systematic project."

Riot police also clashed with protesters in Kizilay, the government quarter of the capital, Ankara, firing tear gas

Despite the protests against Erdogan, he remains unrivalled as a leader in his AK party, in parliament and on the streets.

Mutlu appealed to people to stay away from the square for their own safety. "We will continue our measures in an unremitting manner, whether day or night, until marginal elements are cleared and the square is open to the people," he said in the brief television announcement.

"From today, from this hour, the measures we are going to take in Taksim Square will be conducted with care, in front of our people's eyes, in front of televisions and under the eyes of social media with caution and in accordance with the law."

The unrest has knocked investor confidence in a country that has boomed under Erdogan. The lira, already suffering from wider market turmoil, fell to its weakest level against its dollar/euro basket since October 2011.

The cost of insuring Turkish debt against default rose to its highest in 10 months, although it remained far from crisis levels.

The police moved back into Taksim a day after Erdogan agreed to meet protest leaders involved in the initial demonstrations over development of the square.

"I invite all demonstrators, all protesters, to see the big picture and the game that is being played," Erdogan said. "The ones who are sincere should withdraw ... and I expect this from them as their prime minister."

Protesters accuse Erdogan of authoritarian rule and some suspect him of ambitions to replace the secular republic with an Islamic order, something he denies.

"This movement won't end here ... After this, I don't think people will go back to being afraid of this government or any government," said student Seyyit Cikmen, 19, as the crowd chanted "Every place is Taksim, every place resistance".

Turkey's Medical Association said that as of late Monday, 4,947 people had sought treatment in hospitals and voluntary infirmaries for injuries, ranging from cuts and burns to breathing difficulties from tear gas inhalation, since the unrest began more than 10 days ago. Three people have died.

Erdogan has repeatedly dismissed the protesters as "riff-raff" but is expected to meet leaders of the Gezi Park Platform group on Wednesday.

(Additional reporting by Daren Butler, Ece Toksabay and Humeyra Pamuk; Writing by Nick Tattersall; Editing by Giles Elgood and David Stamp)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/11/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE9590QA20130611

[Risto the Great]

Yes, thanks Gocka. I had been meaning to raise this for discussion. What an interesting turn of events. The people standing up for the principles of Ataturk's secularism. Good on them.

[George S.]

i was waiting for the dust to settle.Could one call them riffraff When there are turn of events culminating to civil revolt.Time will tell.

[Gocka]

Has anyone done a lot of reading on whats happening in Turkey? I have not had the time to really look into the subject but im curious to know whats really going on over there. From the little ive read it seems it is actually a peaceful movement building up, and the government coming down heavy handed to stop it. Is this true?

[Solid]

This is not black and white, the protesters are not so peaceful and there are serious case of police brutality (i will link a video of a policeman killing a protester), but i can say that the police in turkey is under heavy pressure, there are policemen who haven't stepped in their house for days -they even sleep on the streets-).

- And this is far more than just a Taksim place.

[Volokin]

What is happening to Turkey?

Over 100 detained as Turkish police crackdown on ‘secular’ teachers' protest
Police use water canon to disperse a rally making its way to Kizilay Square in the capital Ankara, as mainly teachers demonstrated against the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government's education policy, on December 20, 2014.(AFP Photo / Adem Altan)Police use water canon to disperse a rally making its way to Kizilay Square in the capital Ankara, as mainly teachers demonstrated against the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government's education policy, on
Police in Ankara detained more than 100 people during a protest organized by a secular teachers’ union as officers used force to disperse the demonstration in a surprise crackdown.

Hundreds of demonstrators demanding “respect for secular education and labor” gathered Saturday morning in Tandogan Square in central Ankara. According to the protestors, police began to fire water cannons and tear gas on the crowd without warning.


Mehmet Balik, chief of the union’s Antalya branch, was one of those being held in custody for interrogation. Balik told The Hurriyet Daily News that the police, who called the protests illegal, launched a surprise attack on the crowd.

“We stood up for the rights of our teachers and civil servants, but we were the victims of a police attack without any warning,” he said. “They soaked down the group, which also included children and the elderly.”


Demonstrators, at first, refused to comply with police demands to disperse and insisted on marching towards the Kizilay neighborhood, reports Hurriyet.

Police arrest a man during a rally making its way to Kizilay Square in the capital Ankara, as mainly teachers demonstrated against the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government's education policy, on December 20, 2014.(AFP Photo / Adem Altan)Police arrest a man during a rally making its way to Kizilay Square in the capital Ankara, as mainly teachers demonstrated against the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government's education policy, on December 20, 2014.(AFP Photo / Adem Altan)

Many of those detained were members and executives of the union, including Egitm-Is head, Veli Demir.

Secularists fear that President Recep Tayyip Erdogan may be steering the country away from the secular foundations established by first president, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Erdogan’s recent statements on education have prompted concern that he may move to introduce religion into schools. Earlier this fall, Turkey lifted a ban on headscarves in high schools.

READ MORE: Turkey lifts headscarf ban in schools for girls as young as 10

The police crackdown comes amid a larger clobbering of dissent in Turkey. Last week, after a media raid, more than 20 suspected supporters of exiled cleric and foe of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Fethullah Gulen were detained. This Friday, an Istanbul court issued a warrant for the arrest of Gulen himself, who is being accused of trying to create a “parallel state.”


READ MORE: Turkey issues arrest warrant for top Erdogan rival Fethullah Gulen

Last March, Erdogan temporarily banned YouTube and Twitter during a corruption probe which resulted in the resignation of four of his top ministers and spurred Erdogan to fire hundreds of officials and police, fearing betrayal.

Critics have accused Erdogan’s administration of dogged effort to stomp out opposition.

Turkey, pretty much up until Erdogan was elected, seemed to be going along very well, socially and economically. They played off Russia, the EU and America to their advantage and were progressing massively in all areas.

Now it really does appear things have changed, Erdogan has taken on a much more authoritarian role with a Islamist tone. Google it.

A secular Turkey is a good Turkey, for the country and the region. Not the sort of secular state that bans head-scarfs but a one that is progressing the country in the right direction, because that will help Macedonia indirectly. Although the level of Turkish foreign investment might be reaching a level of "slightly worrying", it is very much needed for the economy, and they are a vital economic partner, financing the majority of projects in the roM it seems. Thing is, Albania-Turkey, not Macedonia, will be the powerful regional player in the Balkan region in years to come. The point is though that Erdogan is actually regressing Turkey as a nation, which was actually progressing.

'Women should not laugh in public,' says Turkey's Deputy Prime Minister in morality speech

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/women-should-not-laugh-in-public-says-turkeys-deputy-prime-minister-in-morality-speech-9635526.html

The thing is, unlike Macedonia, the Turkish people will protest and fight for what they believe in, and I think they will topple him soon. We only need to look back to this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2...ests_in_Turkey

Revolution will happen within Erdogan's term.

Turkey: Football Fans on Trial for ‘Coup’
Charges in Gezi Protest Case Show Contempt for Right of Association

DECEMBER 11, 2014 Press release
Charging these Beşiktaş football club fans as enemies of the state for joining a public protest is a ludicrous travesty. The indictment contains no evidence to support the coup attempt charges and should never have come to court. The prosecutor should immediately indicate that he does not believe the charges should be pursued and ask the court for their acquittal.
Emma Sinclair-Webb, senior Turkey researcher
(Istanbul) – The prosecution of 35 football fans on coup-plot charges is a blatant misuse of the criminal justice system. The trial of supporters of Beşiktaş football club, associated with its Çarşı fan group, began today in Istanbul.

The group joined mass anti-government protests in June 2013 triggered by opposition to government plans for development on the site of Gezi Park in central Istanbul. The evidence presented in the prosecutor’s indictment contains no allegation of activities that either fit the charge of an attempt to overthrow the government or of the other offenses for which the defendants are on trial, such as acting as a criminal gang and resisting the police.

“Charging these Beşiktaş football club fans as enemies of the state for joining a public protest is a ludicrous travesty,” said Emma Sinclair-Webb, senior Turkey researcher at Human Rights Watch. “The indictment contains no evidence to support the coup attempt charges and should never have come to court. The prosecutor should immediately indicate that he does not believe the charges should be pursued and ask the court for their acquittal.”

The evidence in the Istanbul prosecutor’s September 2014 indictment against the 35 consists of intercepted telephone calls and text messages, the defendants’ possession of gas masks and goggles to avoid teargas, and video footage showing that the fans were at the demonstrations, along with thousands of others.

There is no specific allegation of any violent activity or criminal conduct and no suggestion that firearms the police found in some defendants’ homes were used or planned for use during the protests. The defendants’ intercepted telephone calls and text messages express opposition to the government, excitable sentiments of support for the demonstrations, and a few rhetorical claims but do not constitute evidence of criminal activity.

All the defendants in this trial are at liberty.

“It is alarming to see that President Erdoğan’s characterization of the Gezi protests as an attempt to overthrow the government has been adopted by the prosecutor as the basis of this indictment,” Sinclair-Webb said. “It reveals a great deal about the enormous pressure being exerted on Turkey’s justice system by the government.”

The Çarşı trial is one among hundreds of ongoing legal proceedings against thousands of demonstrators who participated in the anti-government protests in cities around the country triggered by the Istanbul Gezi Park sit-in. Some trials have ended in defendants being acquitted while others are continuing. Those charged with terrorism offenses and still on trial spent up to 10 months in pretrial detention before being freed on bail.

Among the cases in Istanbul, a trial began in June of five organizers of Taksim Solidarity, a platform of 128 nongovernmental organizations supporting the Gezi Park campaign and sit-in. They were charged with forming a criminal gang, inciting and participating in unlawful demonstrations, and refusing orders to disperse. The next hearing of their ongoing trial with 21 codefendants is scheduled for January 2015.

Another ongoing trial of 255 people who participated in the Gezi Park protests is under way in a separate Istanbul court. That group is charged with joining unlawful demonstrations, refusing orders to disperse, and damaging public property. Among the defendants are people who had taken refuge in a mosque and doctors who treated them for excessive exposure to teargas. The next hearing is scheduled for March.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/12/15/turkey-football-fans-trial-coup

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/analysis/2014/12/22/Did-Erdogan-reverse-Ataturk-s-secularism-in-Turkish-schools-in-2014-.html

Monday, 22 December 2014

The news on Saturday that hundreds of Turkish demonstrators were dispersed and about a hundred arrested in the capital Ankara following a protest in defense of the country’s secular education system, underline the strength of feeling in Turkey regarding reforms of the country's secular educational system, widely considered as one of the policy pillars of the republic’s founding father, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. The protest , organized by Turkish labor unions , comes after activists expressed furor over the so called education reforms by the Islamic-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), alleging that it undermines the Turkish education system by making it more religious as opposed to the secular policies of Ataturk. For these activists and critics of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, AKP’s is acting in line with its Islamic agenda when almost three years ago, its leader promised: “We will raise a religious generation.”

For some people, they see AKP -- which has the lion's share of 312 seats in Turkey’s 550-seat parliament since its landslide victory in the 2002 election -- as reaching its peak in defying Ataturk’s secular legacy in Turkish education, while for others, the party is merely enacting laws needed in a country where its glaring secularism alienated its population, which is mostly Muslim. “There was a trend on the rise and hence what happened now is the peak of the trend. We are not talking about something that suddenly became a turning point,” Ahmet Kasim Han, associate professor of International Relations at Kadir Has University in Istanbul, told Al Arabiya News.

What happened in 2014?

While in 2013 Turkey witnessed the passing of legislation banning any forms of advertising of alcohol, and had its first female lawmaker entering the country’s Parliament wearing an Islamic head scarf was in 1999, 2014 is this year when education became AKP’s focus. In late September, the Turkish government allowed girls as young as ten years old to cover their hair by donning the Islamic head piece called hijab while attending school. This became permissible after secular laws, which considered hijab to be a public expression of faith and was staunchly prohibited, were amended.

In November 2014, Rennan Pekunlu, a former professor of astrophysics at Ege University, became Turkey’s first individual to be jailed for violating the “constitutional right to education” of a headscarf-wearing student by barring her from entering the faculty because of her hijab in a 2012 incident. And in one of its latest changes, the 19th National Education Council of Turkey’s Ministry of Education enforced on 15 December basic religious knowledge courses to first graders and implemented Ottoman language classes as electives. However, Ottoman classes were obligatory for students attending the imam-hatip schools. These schools focus on a curriculum with religious lessons.

Ottoman, an older version of the language spoken in Turkey, contains more Arabic and Persian words, and was written using the Arabic alphabet, but got dropped by Ataturk in his quest to give Turkey a modernist and more European outlook. After witnessing an increase of the imam-hatip schools of Turkey, the ministry of national education announced a week ago that it plans to open these schools for Turkish expatriates in other countries. Erdogan, who is an imam hatip graduate himself, celebrated the fact that enrollment in the imam-hatips schools jumped to almost a million from just 63,000 during his 12 years in power. According to the local Daily Sabah newspaper, the number of imam-hatip high schools rose to 1,008 from 876 in 2013.

“It is clearly because of Erdogan’s promotions of such schools that they were on the rise,” Han said. “He has repeatedly praised these schools for educating the perfect model of citizens as he see sit, this did not happen on one instance but on several occasions.” Asked if the increase of imam-hatips is representative of what the Turkish people want, Han said “there are people for sure, who would like to send their children to such schools, but I don’t think there was ever a big demand for it.” Han added, “with the help of some grassroot organizations, who are like minded with him [Erdogan],” these schools saw an increase. It is about the AKP majority in the parliament and nothing else. It reflects the election system rather than the will of the people.” Fadi Hakura, Turkey expert and associate fellow at Chatham House, told Al Arabiya News that the “education policy is under the firm control of the central government and therefore, it has a major say on the development of the education system in the country.” “I think the AKP is sufficiently powerful to undertake some major transformational reforms in the education system, including the policies that were introduced by Ataturk,” Hakura added.

However, some of these reforms are also seen as a way for Turkey to reconnect with its past, especially when introducing Ottoman language as elective. “Erdogan has said quite clearly that he sees the introduction of Ottoman classes as an elective course in public schools but an obligatory one in imam-hatips as a way for Turkey to reconnect with its Ottoman past and its pre-republican history,” Hakura said.

Are Turks conservative or secular?

Observers also mull these development as a comeback by the conservatives to have their freedom to practice religion, especially after the 1997 coup when the military, which has long seen itself as the “guardian of Turkish democracy” and Ataturk’s secular legacy, intervened after Islamists won elections. The military issued a series of “recommendations,” which the government had no choice but to accept. The government at the time agreed to a compulsory eight-year education program to prevent students from enrolling in religious schools, a headscarf ban at universities, and other measures. “Surveys show that the Turkish population has been consistently conservative over the last 20 years, and what has changed is that there is a greater openness and space for religious expression in public life,” Hakura said.

He added: “In Turkey's case, the ruling party has won three decisive general elections, and secured the largest segment of the Turkish voters.” In 2011, Turkey’s general elections witnessed the highest turnout since 1987. Even the 2007 elections saw a voter participation rate of 84.5 percent. “Turkish voters with their high turnout voted in favor of a conservative party,” Hakura concluded. However, like so many other observers Hakura believes “the key determinant of the longevity and durability of the ruling party will be the state of national economy.”

Asked whether Turkey’s national sentiment is conservative or secular, Han said “it is irrelevant,” adding “This is a parliamentarian system here, people go out and vote for a package.” However, different polls have revealed that the Turkish people see themselves as Muslim, with at least half of those surveyed describing themselves as religious. So while protests against educational reforms have started and may well continue in 2015, it seems that these reforms are here to stay for the near future.

The conservatives do seem to have the upper hand over the secularists in Turkey these days. If the army is infiltrated then there would probably be no going back for Turkey.