Modern Turkey: Ottomanism vs Secularism

[freifrau]

Are you saying myths and collective beliefs have no part of ethnic identity? What does contribute to ethnic identity?

Of course they do. As long as remain myths,fairy tails,tales.

The passing from ethnic community to a nation is marked from the transformation,cut and saw,codification and lastly preeching of this myths as a truth.

(@Julie,i was writing generally not about Macedonia ,chance given from the discussion about Turkey)

[Onur]

zb Scandinavian countries have done it really well -they have a really high level of quality of life and social care- without any need of nationalistic competition!

You cant compare any country in Balkans or in central Europe with Scandinavians. They are living in their own world just like the Australia. So, they are kinda separated from rest of the world or any other foreign threat. Also, all Scandinavians are actually same people who speaks similar language and their borders are practically non existent. Actually the project called EU is an attempt to convert whole Europe like Scandinavia to eliminate the nations and create a peace by imposing this. This is a useful project for post-WW2 on paper because Europeans have a tendency to kill each other but we all see "how successful!" this project today.

And another question...do you agree with the opinion German nationalists have for the millions of Turkish immigrants in Germany?

First of all, most of these millions of Turkish immigrants as you called are Kurds and rest of them was uneducated and poor Turks from the most rural places in Turkey. So, i understand the frustration of Germany about these people cuz we in Turkey live a similar situation with the Kurds as well.

But ofc i don't approve the acts of your so-called German nationalists upon these poor people. No one in the world approves this because these people are not illegal workers in Germany. You invited them there in 1960s to let them work in your factories. These people worked hard and contributed the development of your country and helped you to rise again from the mess created by WW-2. They did your dirty works and now your skinheads beats them in the streets, burn their houses at night while they are sleeping inside. These people are not nationalists or patriots. They are racist and as i told you two times b4, Germans have a problem with confusing these concepts with racism and this is another proof for that.


For example, i can say that Turkish people in Turkey are one of the most patriotic society in the world. You probably know our problems with the Armenians. We killed each other in a civil war at WW-1 days, they allied with Russians and massacred local Turks in eastern Anatolia, Armenian state has 100 year old policy of Turkish hate, they don't recognize our borders by considering eastern Anatolia as a part of Armenian Kingdom, their children chants once a week and gives an oath to take back their so-called ancient lands from Turks, they falsely accuse us with genocide and they want 100+ billions of dollars compensation from us... BUT YET, about ~70.000 people from Armenia works and lives in Turkey illegally. Mostly as a babysitter or servants of our local Armenians in Turkey. Even that, no one in Turkey beats them in the streets or tries to kill them by burning them. We just tolerate them even if we don't have to, cuz they are illegally staying here unlike the immigrants in Germany. How about this?

[freifrau]

Even that, no one in Turkey beats them in the streets or tries to kill them by burning them. We just tolerate them even if we don't have to, cuz they are illegally staying here unlike the immigrants in Germany. How about this?

There are some 3.500.000 Turks in Germany...do you think these acts happen more than once in a year?

There are 70.000 Armenians in Turkey but i can remember the killing of an Armenian journalist.

[Onur]

There are some 3.500.000 Turks in Germany...do you think these acts happen more than once in a year?

There are 70.000 Armenians in Turkey but i can remember the killing of an Armenian journalist.

I don't know the statistics but racist attacks and beating in the streets are probably common in Germany and afaik, there are always 2-3 fire sabotage attempts in every year at Germany.


There is no such a thing as racist motivated gangs in Turkey and that murder case of Armenian journalist was political motivated, not about racism or something. He wasn't an immigrant from Armenia, he was a member of our local Armenian community in Istanbul. He was an active journalist in Turkish politics and in one day he wrote an article in a daily Armenian language newspaper like "Turks are filthy in blood". He has been stand trial and fined by 20.000EU for spreading racist thoughts in a newspaper and most of people, including other Armenians criticized him on tv programs. Then next day, he got killed by a fanatic at front of his office in Istanbul. He was the first ever murdered Armenian journalist in Turkey for 90 years.

[Risto the Great]

Of course they do. As long as remain myths,fairy tails,tales.

The passing from ethnic community to a nation is marked from the transformation,cut and saw,codification and lastly preeching of this myths as a truth.

We must be pragmatic here FF. An "ethnic community" surrounded by "nations" has no chance for continued existence where it represents a numerical minority.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Freifrau, how many ethnic Germans would be willing to accept Turkish as a language with equivalent 'rights' as Albanian in Macedonia?

[freifrau]

He was the first ever murdered Armenian journalist in Turkey for 90 years.

Quiet reasonable,not to find an Armenian to kill, considering that all Armenian journalists along with some other 1.500.000 millions were allready exterminated.

[freifrau]

Freifrau, how many ethnic Germans would be willing to accept Turkish as a language with equivalent 'rights' as Albanian in Macedonia?

Soldier of Macedon, i believe the analogy does not really match (Turks here are immigrants and consist less than 4% of the population.)

On the other hand for me the most important in Macedonia is everybody to speak Macedonian too.
When i was there, in Albanian populated areas, i met really many people (esp women) who couldn't speak Macedonian at all and did not really care about it.
For example a law could pass (if there is not already one),that someone cannot work in public administration if he doesn't speak properly the official language.

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

For example a law could pass (if there is not already one),that someone cannot work in public administration if he doesn't speak properly the official language.

I'd like that too, but our country has no balls when it comes to Albanians. If we pass that law they are going to start protests and riots. The government will do anything for them just to be peaceful.

That's what happens when Macedonia makes a fake census that shows 25% are Albanians. Now they have to have jobs even if they don't speak 1 word of Macedonian language.

Also we can't pass any law unless Albanians agree in the government. That's what you get when you want to join the European Union.

[Onur]

Quiet reasonable,not to find an Armenian to kill, considering that all Armenian journalists along with some other 1.500.000 millions were allready exterminated.

Dude, there are about ~60.000 Armenian who lives in Turkey for centuries(during WW-1 too cuz they weren't subjects to the expulsion) and also there are about ~70.000 illegal immigrants from Armenia.

1.500.000? They didn't rise this to 2 million yet? You should renew your info about this every year. I bet it will be 2,5 million in few years.

[Soldier of Macedon]

On the other hand for me the most important in Macedonia is everybody to speak Macedonian too.

Would you expect that Macedonians be obligated to learn Albanian in Macedonia?

Quiet reasonable,not to find an Armenian to kill, considering that all Armenian journalists along with some other 1.500.000 millions were allready exterminated.

I have never really looked into the subject, are there any statistics and facts you can point me to that indicate as such? You seem to be quite anti-Turkish, is that because you live in Germany and frown upon German Turks, or is it because you're pro-Armenian, or something else? Just trying to get a better understanding of your perceptions.

[Prolet]

Frei, Let me rephrase the question, would you be willing to learn the Turkish Language in an area where Turks make up 20% of the local population? Turkey is miles ahead of Armenia in every aspect, there is a large Macedonian minority in Turkey and i havnt heard one bad thing happen to them.

I can understand if you are concerned about the minority rights of the Armenian people in Turkey, but you come from a country that exterminated over 6 million Jews and invaded most of Europe. It hardly makes any sense for you to criticize any country about something that happened 100 years ago.

No country is perfect on minority rights, but Turkey is one of the better countries in Europe when it comes to this issue. Its way ahead of France and Germany when it comes to minority rights. I cant speak about the Turks in Germany, but the Turks in Macedonia are very good and very loyal citizens, the majority of them are Ottoman Turks who have lived in Macedonia for over 600 years and they have never forgotten their language,cultures and traditions. If the Albanian minority in Macedonia was half as good as they are all of us here would feel alot better about our country, now we feel very threatened by them.

[freifrau]

Frei, Let me rephrase the question, would you be willing to learn the Turkish Language in an area where Turks make up 20% of the local population? Turkey is miles ahead of Armenia in every aspect, there is a large Macedonian minority in Turkey and i havnt heard one bad thing happen to them.

I can understand if you are concerned about the minority rights of the Armenian people in Turkey, but you come from a country that exterminated over 6 million Jews and invaded most of Europe. It hardly makes any sense for you to criticize any country about something that happened 100 years ago.

Prolet, we are living in 2010.
Germany DID horrible crimes during WWII.
Germany was responsible for the Holocaust.

I admitt all these..and almost everyone here does exactly the same.

On the other hand Onur has only irony for the victims of the armenian genocide.
That's a difference of mentality.

No country is perfect on minority rights, but Turkey is one of the better countries in Europe when it comes to this issue. Its way ahead of France and Germany when it comes to minority rights.

Have you ever read the reports of amnesty international and Helsinki watch about the subject?
There are separate reports about every country.

No doubt that i condemn any act of violence against minorities in Europe. 100%.
I can't find a single excuse about it.

I cant speak about the Turks in Germany, but the Turks in Macedonia are very good and very loyal citizens, the majority of them are Ottoman Turks who have lived in Macedonia for over 600 years and they have never forgotten their language,cultures and traditions. If the Albanian minority in Macedonia was half as good as they are all of us here would feel alot better about our country, now we feel very threatened by them.

I don't doubt they are good citizens. I don't even doubt that the vast majority here is also really decent and good.

My opposition (and this is an answer for Soldier's post too) is not against the Turkish people as individuals, or the Turks as a nation.
It is against every prevailed nationalism which denies the crimes of the past and approves a continuation till now.
The most shocking for me is when this mentality goes down to the majority of a society.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Would you expect that Macedonians be obligated to learn Albanian in Macedonia?

Freifrau, would appreciate an answer to the above if you're willing to oblige.

[julie]

Prolet, I must say, my eyes were as wide as saucers, I have not seen you be so blunt! And I understand and agree with what you have stated, you made your point bratko.

Freifrau Prolet has stated facts. The Albanians do NOT speak Macedonian, they are emploed above the Macedonians, they hold governmental postings, they are rude, arrogant and above the law, they do not respect the Macedonian people and they are demanding universities in Albanian!
Am not sure where you are coming from, you seem very pro - Albanian.
In my country, Australia, we speak English. We do not make demands on the government here, we are educated right through to university level English, nor as a minority group do we demand the states to redraw their borders here and call it Macedonia.
The Albanians can rot in hell as far as I am concerned. Most of them are Kosovo refugees who spit on the Macedonians, my fellow brothers and sisters and relatives, they were forced upon us by the likes of yankee doodle dandy and the bullshit EU has given Macedonia grief enough over them.
The Turkish citizens in RoM, and most of them are muslim, have lived in harmony with the Macedonians for centuries, ,they are not demanding greater Turkey as the ALbanians have taken over entire villages.
Perhaps if Macedonians in Germany were to do the same as the Albanians are doing and have done to RoM, and demand piece of Germany to be even called Macedonia, you may acquiesce and say that is good
If you dont agree with this, and if you continue to be derogatory to Turkey and our allies in who recognise us, perhaps you should be on another forum, because you are trying my patience , you are being insulting and I agree with the stance our diplomatic colleague here Prolet has taken .
Let us partition Germany and slice it into 4 pieces, let Turkey flood in and then allow Turkey to have Turksih Universities and rename your nationalistic country, and rascist countrey at that if everyone is following your stance
am sorry if this offends you, but your approach is a mite offensive