BREXIT - Britain will be out of the EU!

[Phoenix]

I find it a little hypocritical if we point the finger at the Brits for leaving and then advocate Macedonia never joins. The reasons for leaving are justifiable for reasons beyond racism.

Absolutely, I think the 'Leave' crowd were extremely brave and I don't buy the arguments that they're shaped by insular views.
The EU is a racist, discriminatory, supranational experiment that clearly negates the sovereignty of its members.

[vicsinad]

The reasons are justifiable beyond racism, but I think we are filling in the blanks to justify it for our own purposes, while the people who actually voted, did so for very different reasons.

I think this is it. We may have our own reasons for why the UK should leave, the EU isn't working, and Macedonia shouldn't join the EU. Are these the same reasons fueled much of the Leave Campaign's victory? Perhaps. But would the Leave Campaign have won had it not been for the xenophobia and anti-immigration vote? I doubt it.

Macedonians (in the Diaspora and elsewhere) that are anti-EU are mostly anti-EU because of the name and identity issue. Most have very little knowledge or grasp of actual EU policies and structure. Those that do seek to discredit the EU for its structure and non-Macedonian policies only do so after already coming out as anti-EU for EU's anti-Macedonian stances. These are some of the same Macedonians who were previously friendly, supportive and encouraging of the EU to give Greece the boot during the height of the economic crises. The economic and policy arguments coming from most Macedonians as to why EU should give Greece the boot usually come second to Macedonian's disdain with Greece's anti-Macedonian actions and policies.

I'm pretty confident that many Macedonians who do not support Macedonia in the EU -- or do not support the EU at all -- are really fueled simply by the context of Macedonian-Greek relations. Had EU given Greece the boot -- or even less drastic, took Macedonia's side over Greece on the name issue -- most Macedonians would overwhelmingly be either neutral or in favor of EU. I'm not saying this is wrong.

[Phoenix]

I actually agree with your statement. I am not blaming Trump for the racist tendencies, he's not creating racists, all I am saying is that they haven't had a public mouthpiece in a long time. I can see it unfolding around me, most of these people were closet racists all along, but now they feel bolder, they say things out loud that they only thought to themselves before. When you attach these people to a larger movement with out denouncing them, you risk making them think they are 1. right 2. supported 3. free to act on their feelings. The US has had problems with racism from day one, As Vicsinad eluded to above. Every generation had a scape goat, Jews, Italians, Poles, Catholics, Irish, Blacks, Mexicans, Gays, Muslims. At one point or another these groups were the scum of the earth and weren't "American" enough. We can't change a racist just by keeping them in the closet, but you also have to be careful not to legitimize, because these types of things tend to have a snowball effect to them.



I think we are in between a rock and a hard place. As far as the reasons the leave vote won; polling showed that the number 1 reason people were leaning toward leave before the vote, was the promise that the UK would have more control over its Immigration policy. The vast majority weren't against the free flow of goods, the cooperation on security, the negotiating power of a single block, the ability for Brits to travel freely around Europe. The only real problems they had with the EU was control of monetary policy (average people don't know what that means), the free flow of people from Europe to the UK (mainly Bulgarians and Poles), and the contributions that had to be made to the EU (understandable). We can sit here and pretend it was about sovereignty, but I think the average person is completely ok with being someone's bitch as long as they are ok economically. It was mostly about immigration. Now lets be clear of that majority that voted leave in order to keep out immigrants, only a minority did so because they genuinely hate immigrants, the vast majority are convinced that although these immigrants aren't bad people, they are hurting the average native Brit economically, and thus they need to go. I wouldn't call the former racism, but lets be honest its not exactly enlightenment either.

As far as Macedonians are concerned, the UK is not a good example, It was a large influential country within the EU that still had quite a bit of sovereignty. If Macedonians want examples of why not to enter the EU then they need to look no further than their immediate neighbors. Bulgaria, Greece, Slovenia, and Croatia all lost a lot of sovereignty, and are economically worse off. The only benefit they had was their citizens could go work in England and Switzerland, which they may not be able to do anymore. Half of Bulgaria moved to England, what happens to them now? If Bulgaria was hurting before what happens when all those emigrants come back and need to find work in Bulgaria?

The reasons are justifiable beyond racism, but I think we are filling in the blanks to justify it for our own purposes, while the people who actually voted, did so for very different reasons.

I still think it's a far deeper issue than any evidence of racism that we might identify on the surface.

The free flow of labour across EU member states is a precondition of membership, now in times of economic prosperity it's a dynamic that largely goes unnoticed but the masses of Europe haven't seen any semblance of prosperity for at least a decade, whilst their wages have been in slow decline for closer to 2 decades.

In order for EU members to enjoy access to the free market, they must in turn allow the free flow of labour, in the current economic downturn, this is the proverbial shit hitting the fan moment because the global economy is on life support, central banks across the world have no magic bullets left to fire, austerity is the only game in town...so imagine a worker from, lets say a shithole like greece, now selling his labour in a depressed economic climate in the UK...all of a sudden it becomes a race to the bottom...

[vicsinad]

Also, coming from the Macedonian Cause as being a backbone for much of my thoughts and beliefs, I think a discussion about what Macedonia entering the EU could mean for Macedonia's and Macedonian citizens relation and interactions with Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria would be valuable. If it does show benefits for the overall goals of the Macedonian Cause in relation to the Macedonians living there, do they outweigh the harm being in the EU could cause to the Republic? Would the EU recognizing Macedonia as Macedonia change views on this assessment?

When it comes down to it, if the majority of the world's nations and ethnic groups are operating from self-interest, and the world is also a battlefield for cultural competition, Macedonia and Macedonians should put the Macedonian Cause above all else in deciding the appropriate course of action.

Are there economic benefits to being in the EU for Macedonia? If there are, are they temporary or long-term? What would being in the EU mean for Macedonian governance? Would the justice system improve? How will sovereignty be affected? Will the Albanian minority be more content or become more radicalized? Will Macedonian culture diminish? Will Macedonians leave to seek jobs in Europe? Will more jobs and investment come into Macedonia? Will conditions improve for Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria? Will Greece and Bulgaria use it as a way in to influence Macedonian mentality and/or politicians and government officials? Will the environmental and health conditions of the Macedonians improve?

[Gocka]

I agree, this is all a manifestation of many problems facing the average working class person for a few decades now. The problem is that when things finally make it to the surface, you know things have really gotten bad. When we see them on the surface is when people are getting desperate and taking desperate actions. Once you enter that phase, there's no predicting what can happen next.

I'm not saying its wrong that the average Brit doesn't want to compete with Bulgarians, Greeks, and Poles in the labor market, that doesn't make them racist. It also doesn't make them patriots and enlightened thinkers. This was about immigration and its impact on labor and economics, not a desire for sovereignty. That's all I'm saying. That and that its undeniable that at least a minority of the anti immigration wasn't about labor, but about xenophobia.

If we want to use it to persuade Macedonians then we need to frame it in the context of, "you have to power to make your own choices, despite what the elites and media want you to do". I just feel its a false argument if you try and paint the leave camp as an enlightened and patriotic bunch and then say, you should be like them.

Lets not kid ourselves, the average Macedonian still wants to get in the EU for the same reason the average Bulgarian does, they can work in England, Switzerland, Germany, and the hand full of bigger countries that their cheaper labor can be used. That's what pisses of people like the Brits, a Bulgarian comes to England, gets paid half of what his peers accept, because he can live like a king in Bulgaria from it. The average Brit doesn't have that option and all it does is lower his wages or put him out of a job. But it also goes deeper than just kicking out the eastern Europeans and increasing wages. If Bulgars and Poles cant work in the west, then their families back home can't afford to climb out of third world status. Economies are built on growth, all the growth was happening in places that had a lot of room to grow, if those poorer economies stop growing, then all the products that are made in the west have no where to be sold because western markets are saturated already. So the same guy who might see a temporary increase in wages will probably we out of a job later on because there's less demand for what ever industry he's in. Economics is a big game of give and take, every move causes a ripple, somewhere somehow.

I still think it's a far deeper issue than any evidence of racism that we might identify on the surface.

The free flow of labour across EU member states is a precondition of membership, now in times of economic prosperity it's a dynamic that largely goes unnoticed but the masses of Europe haven't seen any semblance of prosperity for at least a decade, whilst their wages have been in slow decline for closer to 2 decades.

In order for EU members to enjoy access to the free market, they must in turn allow the free flow of labour, in the current economic downturn, this is the proverbial shit hitting the fan moment because the global economy is on life support, central banks across the world have no magic bullets left to fire, austerity is the only game in town...so imagine a worker from, lets say a shithole like greece, now selling his labour in a depressed economic climate in the UK...all of a sudden it becomes a race to the bottom...

[Phoenix]

I agree, this is all a manifestation of many problems facing the average working class person for a few decades now. The problem is that when things finally make it to the surface, you know things have really gotten bad. When we see them on the surface is when people are getting desperate and taking desperate actions. Once you enter that phase, there's no predicting what can happen next.

I'm not saying its wrong that the average Brit doesn't want to compete with Bulgarians, Greeks, and Poles in the labor market, that doesn't make them racist. It also doesn't make them patriots and enlightened thinkers. This was about immigration and its impact on labor and economics, not a desire for sovereignty. That's all I'm saying. That and that its undeniable that at least a minority of the anti immigration wasn't about labor, but about xenophobia.

If we want to use it to persuade Macedonians then we need to frame it in the context of, "you have to power to make your own choices, despite what the elites and media want you to do". I just feel its a false argument if you try and paint the leave camp as an enlightened and patriotic bunch and then say, you should be like them.

Lets not kid ourselves, the average Macedonian still wants to get in the EU for the same reason the average Bulgarian does, they can work in England, Switzerland, Germany, and the hand full of bigger countries that their cheaper labor can be used. That's what pisses of people like the Brits, a Bulgarian comes to England, gets paid half of what his peers accept, because he can live like a king in Bulgaria from it. The average Brit doesn't have that option and all it does is lower his wages or put him out of a job. But it also goes deeper than just kicking out the eastern Europeans and increasing wages. If Bulgars and Poles cant work in the west, then their families back home can't afford to climb out of third world status. Economies are built on growth, all the growth was happening in places that had a lot of room to grow, if those poorer economies stop growing, then all the products that are made in the west have no where to be sold because western markets are saturated already. So the same guy who might see a temporary increase in wages will probably we out of a job later on because there's less demand for what ever industry he's in. Economics is a big game of give and take, every move causes a ripple, somewhere somehow.

I largely agree with the bulk of what you've put forward, not so much about the immigration debate on face value alone.

My strong belief is that the immigration debate when viewed in isolation might make perfect sense, I'll argue that the manifestation of the immigration issue, particularly when framed in such racist connotations by some on here and many in the wider 'Remain' movement is actually symptomatic of the failures of the EU model itself.

The EU's greatest problem is the disparate economies of it's member states...you could quite easily split the Union into a 3 tier system and you could still have a subcategory under the banner of 'Failed States', with the hapless greeks holding pride and place in that damned grouping.

The EU has become nothing more than the political and civil administrative arm of NATO, no good can come out of an organisation hell bent on collecting Eastern European, basket case economies at the nadir of Russian influence in Europe...in the EU's (read USA) haste to bring these 3rd tier and 'Failed State', economies into the EU fold, they've created widespread economic dysfunction and the social consequences of those actions is the rise of right-wing extremism, nativism and racism.

EU economic policy without a single currency and central monetary and fiscal control over the entire Union membership is the real issue here.
To throw together an Indian caste system of economies together with the unbridled policies of labour movement and then expecting unregulated 'market forces' to weave their cosmic magic and make everything work is fanciful.

Finally when the bean counters in Brussels decide to abandon keynesian economics in favour of belt tightening and the self defeating policies of austerity and its devastating social impact, the game is truly over and it's time for you to get your ball and go home...that's the systematic dysfunction that the 'Leave' campaign has voted to abandon.

[Risto the Great]

I've been all over Europe the last few weeks. It's great not having borders and a single currency. On a Greek island at the moment. Greece is indebted to the EU and it's real wages are decreasing every year. It's been going backwards for ages and is getting closer and closer to Macedonia's miserable conditions.

The argument for EU entry for Macedonia is based on them leaving Macedonia to earn more wages elsewhere. That's all! Any subsidies given to Macedonia will be rorted and create more indebtedness to external financiers.

I can't see the reason to join the EU, but can see why Macedonians will want to leave Macedonia and work elsewhere more easily. It would further change Macedonia's demographics for the worse and can only be bad for the nation. But the Macedonians will take EU entry any day in my opinion.

[vicsinad]

I've been all over Europe the last few weeks. It's great not having borders and a single currency. On a Greek island at the moment. Greece is indebted to the EU and it's real wages are decreasing every year. It's been going backwards for ages and is getting closer and closer to Macedonia's miserable conditions.

The argument for EU entry for Macedonia is based on them leaving Macedonia to earn more wages elsewhere. That's all! Any subsidies given to Macedonia will be rorted and create more indebtedness to external financiers.

I can't see the reason to join the EU, but can see why Macedonians will want to leave Macedonia and work elsewhere more easily. It would further change Macedonia's demographics for the worse and can only be bad for the nation. But the Macedonians will take EU entry any day in my opinion.

Do you think open borders between Greece and Macedonia and between Bulgaria and Macedonia would be a benefit or a drawback for Macedonia / Macedonians?

Do you also think Macedonian citizens leaving Macedonia (if Macedonia was in the EU) would change the demographics mostly regarding age, or also ethnically? It's my sense that perhaps just as many Albanians (proportionally) would leave as well. However, if Macedonia is in EU and Albania and Kosovo are not, that could change Macedonia's ethnic demographics.

[Risto the Great]

At the moment, Greeks and Bulgars come to Macedonia to buy necessities (even to fill their cars with petrol). I can see how that would be easier with unrestricted borders. But it doesn't seem to be totally difficult right now. I see that as a neutral future scenario.

In relation to the demographics post EU entry, I think a number of variables will come into play. Among them, the level of education seems to be higher among ethnic Macedonians (maybe it will be easier for them to get jobs abroad). Willingness to work abroad (not sure about who is more willing). Ease of gaining citizenship in Macedonia for Kosovars and Albanians (assuming Kosovo and Albania are not in EU).

Either way, the population will be even older (once the willing workers have left the country for greener pastures) and guarantee a Macedonian retirement wasteland.

Macedonia is already hamstrung with EU legislation. If it abandons EU aspirations, it would no longer be hamstrung and free to capitalise on its completely different cost structures. I see this as an opportunity worth pursuing. But the country is run by self serving criminals and there is no chance of this vision being actioned presently.

[vicsinad]

Risto:

Those are good observations. I think, as you alluded to, in EU or out of EU, it doesn't matter as long as the government is run by criminals.

Regarding demographics, it will likely become a retirement wasteland. I read that article stating 3/4 of Greek university students have left Greece. I don't see how it would be much different in Macedonia's case.

Regarding borders, I was thinking more on what that it could or couldn't do for ideological, cultural and identity issues.

[Risto the Great]

I know my father used to believe that the EU would do precisely what you are hoping by opening the borders. To let the cultural affinity flourish and effectively create our Macedonia again. But, honestly, i can't see it. The Macedonians in Greece are typically of the belief that they are superior to RoMacedonians. It's petty and so full of peasantry. I can't see things changing, it's human nature at its worst.

[Karposh]

Funny, I’ve always been of the opinion that it’s the other way around. RoM Macedonians tend to assume an air of superiority over Aegean Macedonians in terms of language and identity. Many RoM Macedonians look down on Aegean Macedonians as not being Macedonian enough or patriotic enough and, in some cases, sitting on the fence over where their national identity lies – Macedonian or Greek. RoM Macedonians don’t even give them the courtesy of calling them Macedonians but, almost exclusively, refer to them as “egejci” instead. I use this term also and I don’t think it’s an offensive term but I just wanted to highlight the underlying arrogance we Macedonians who originate from the RoM have over the Macedonians in Greece.

I take it you have roots from Aegean Macedonia Risto? And you no doubt have been around Aegean Macedonians more so than me so I can’t really question your observation but I find it surprising none the less. The little contact I have had with “egejci” is from my old neighbourhood, where I grew up. We had two Aegean Macedonian families living in our neighbourhood and my family was on friendly terms with both of them. They were originally from two neighbouring Lerin villages (I can’t remember their names) but, surprisingly, they were not on friendly terms between each other. I think it was because one of the families leaned more towards the Greek side.

One was Risto (your namesake), a Macedonian through and through. He spoke perfect literary Macedonian in the Bitola – Lerin dialect and always made a point of greeting me, whenever we crossed paths, in the loudest and proudest voice he could muster. Spiro, on the other hand, was more reserved and quietly spoken. It almost seemed as though he was too scared to utter a word in Macedonian. Spiro always spoke with a whisper. However, as my mum was to observe one day on a rail commute to work, Spiro was very animated and, uncharacteristically loud, when in the company of some Greek ladies, happily chatting away in Greek with his besties while ignoring my mum, too scared to make eye contact just in case he had to greet her in Macedonian and embarrass himself in font of his Greek judges.

As for the EU, I used to be of the opinion that this would be the best thing for Macedonia and that the standard of living would go up once we joined the club too but now I’m of the complete opposite opinion. Stay out of it, I say. We need to rest on our on shoulders to prop ourselves up and not on Europe’s shoulders, which doesn’t give a toss about Macedonia. Fact is most of the richer members of the union see us as just another Balkan backwater shithole that they will eventually need to bail out as well. Another reason, I suspect is that they don’t want more Albanians flooding Europe as citizens of Macedonia, and potentially as citizens of Europe, should Macedonia gain entry. I don’t think there is an appetite in Europe for yet more Muslim immigration. On top of that, the image of the Albanian is not an all good one, with connotations of criminal behaviour – drugs, prostitution, human trafficking and organised crime. Who hasn’t watched Taken & Taken 2 and wondered how did these people enter western European countries? There is a reason why Kosovo was given to the Albanians and it wasn’t because the world felt sorry for them. It was so they wouldn’t flood western countries as refugees but, instead, stay put in Kosovo.

[Risto the Great]

The Muslim Albanians of the Balkans have been empowered for hundreds of years. They have a far more confident disposition. I read recently how they were encouraged by the ruling Turks to pelt the dead bodies of Christian Macedonians and Serbs (at funerals) with rocks and whatever else they could find. I'm sure hundreds of years of this kind of attitude changes the psyche of a people.

My people are from the Lerin region and definitely are not perfect Macedonians by my definition. I understand what you're saying about the superiority the RoMacedonians feel. But I'm very sure it's only in their minds. The ones from Egej generally feel like they are culturally superior with their Greek knowledge. Speaking Macedonian is a farmer language and looked down upon by almost everybody.

Will things change? Maybe, but that will only come from logical scenarios based on economics. So maybe EU entry can help the Macedonian cause if it encourages more jobs in Macedonia and Egejci are encouraged to work there.

I had a great chat with a Catalonian girl from Barcelona yesterday. (I didn't when i was in Barcelona a week ago, but I did here on this Greek island). She flew to Scotland to FEEL the results of the vote for secession. When it failed, she cried her eyes out . I got my goose bumps listening! The Catalonian story has parallels with Macedonians of Greece. Here grandparents were punished if they spoke Catalan, just like mine if they spoke Greek. She is proud to know Spanish, but she knows what she is. A great conversation. Naturally she had no idea that the same issue existed in Greece. (Nor did any Greeks on this island even know there are other races in Greece who spoke different languages!)

This is hard with my phone!

[Phoenix]

The Muslim Albanians of the Balkans have been empowered for hundreds of years. They have a far more confident disposition. I read recently how they were encouraged by the ruling Turks to pelt the dead bodies of Christian Macedonians and Serbs (at funerals) with rocks and whatever else they could find. I'm sure hundreds of years of this kind of attitude changes the psyche of a people.

My people are from the Lerin region and definitely are not perfect Macedonians by my definition. I understand what you're saying about the superiority the RoMacedonians feel. But I'm very sure it's only in their minds. The ones from Egej generally feel like they are culturally superior with their Greek knowledge. Speaking Macedonian is a farmer language and looked down upon by almost everybody.

Will things change? Maybe, but that will only come from logical scenarios based on economics. So maybe EU entry can help the Macedonian cause if it encourages more jobs in Macedonia and Egejci are encouraged to work there.

I had a great chat with a Catalonian girl from Barcelona yesterday. (I didn't when i was in Barcelona a week ago, but I did here on this Greek island). She flew to Scotland to FEEL the results of the vote for secession. When it failed, she cried her eyes out . I got my goose bumps listening! The Catalonian story has parallels with Macedonians of Greece. Here grandparents were punished if they spoke Catalan, just like mine if they spoke Greek. She is proud to know Spanish, but she knows what she is. A great conversation. Naturally she had no idea that the same issue existed in Greece. (Nor did any Greeks on this island even know there are other races in Greece who spoke different languages!)

This is hard with my phone!

Sounds like you're having a lovely trip chRistos...getting in touch with your plate smashing side I see...

[Risto the Great]

Ela re.
I don't know a word of Greek. Imagine every conversation being a declaration of Macedonism and you'll get the idea. This place doesn't care less. Actually, really nice place called Kalymnos. A bit out of the way. Rock climbers come from all round the world to enjoy. Plenty of rocks in Greece.