Largest ancient tomb found of a prominent Macedonian

[Amphipolis]

From what i've heard it's only Greek archeologists on site and some Albanians, I assume are only there for excavation purposes and not really 'in' on the archeological advancements.

Ok, you seem to not understand.
Greek politicians and people have previously used archeological evidence to prove the 'Greekness' of the Macedonians. If newly found archeological advancements worked against that same 'Greekness', you are absolutely sure the Greek archeologists would reveal it? Are you absolutely sure on this?

These hypothetical questions aren't actually absurd and meaningless, they arise situations where the honesty of these archeologists can be identified.

The importance of archaeological evidence in the name dispute is overstated. Think of the tons of arguments of each side (as often displayed in the forum). Which percentage comes from ancient text? Which percentage comes from recent archaeological discoveries of the last two or three centuries?

Being a scholar myself I generally DO trust archaeologists (and scientists in general). In the film Fugitive there’s an evil doctor who falsifies evidence of medical research in order to get rich through a commercial scum. Well, this is too much Hollywood and it’s not MY experience from Science. Most Professors are square guys with increased integrity, high intelligence and thirst for knowledge. Overconfidence, obsession and arrogance are the most common weaknesses for some of them. They always seem to know everything.

I’ve often seen disbelief towards Andronikos’ opinions in this forum, but I’ve never heard doubts on scientific integrity or innuendos he falsified evidence. Most arguments against his theories were based on evidence his team discovered, preserved and described in detail in papers & books.

My impression is that you mistrust them because they’re Greeks, not because they’re archaeologists. Any excavation involves many people and I guess some procedures and standards so that theft or removal of evidence is (almost) impossible. That would be a serious crime, not only from a scientific, but also from a legal point of view.

In Greece, there’s mistrust on the excavation related to what we call trolling or conspiracy theories. That’s not to be taken seriously but tends to become a social mental disease in our time. You wouldn’t want to know these theories, but I can tell you most of them involve Alexander the Great or Samaras.

Amphipolis, for future reference, I do respect you as a person, if you think i'm attacking you in any way I am not.

Also personally, I find it very strange that all the Macedonian tombs found in Greece lack proper inscription. To me this screams lack of honesty, but then again it could be very true that Macedonian tombs in general lack inscriptions.

I do not perceive your questions as an attack, but furthermore I don’t even mind attacks. I mean, it’s not like being attacked with a knife or something.

The term Macedonian Tomb does not refer to all tombs in Macedonia. This is only a type of Tomb, a new fashion that starts suddenly in 4th Century BC as a result of the fast increase of power and wealth in Macedonia. There may be around 50, only three were found not looted (one of them is Philip’s Tomb). Several of them have the name or names of the dead people (e.g. the Family Tomb of Lyson and Callicles at Leukadia, Naousa).

I think common graves had markers (headstones) ON them, called epitymbia stele, which literally means stele ON the tomb. There are hundreds of them, a good percentage of inscriptions are headstones. As for Macedonian Tombs, all of them are recent discoveries, which means that their markers were lost in time.

Also Amphipolis, could you explain about the missing part of the Mosaic and is the Greek writing on that photo of any relevance?

That was a joke. What’s interesting with the missing part is the (close to perfect) circular shape at the centre, for which there are several theories. It seems there was a heavy, valuable object (altar?) that was removed by looters. Yet, the pebbles were found (detached) in the soil and the missing part will be fully restored.

There are also recent leaks (THAT'S NOT OFFICIAL YET) that the floor at the entry of third chamber is destroyed. At first they thought it’s from natural causes but then they realised it’s as if looters had removed the limestone with a shovel and were trying to unearth something(!!).


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[George S.]

Amphipolis how do you explain all the macedonian artifacts moved from other parts of greece to northern greece.There was hardly any left in the athens museum as all or most were sent to macedonia.???

[Philosopher]

Being a scholar myself I generally DO trust archaeologists (and scientists in general).

Amphipolis, in what field are you a scholar? And may I ask what is your opinion on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians? And what is your opinion on the name dispute?

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis, in what field are you a scholar?

I�m sorry, I can�t tell you that. But, I can tell you it�s a field unrelated to the forum discussions.

And may I ask what is your opinion on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians? And what is your opinion on the name dispute?

When I registered I agreed with the administrator to stay away from such discussions.

[Philosopher]

I’m sorry, I can’t tell you that. But, I can tell you it’s a field unrelated to the forum discussions.

Do you have a doctorate degree?

When I registered I agreed with the administrator to stay away from such discussions.

I am fairly certain expressing your opinion is legal and valid. But judging from your answer (or lack thereof) and your ethnicity, I would have to infer you believe in the traditional Greek position.

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis how do you explain all the macedonian artifacts moved from other parts of greece to northern greece.There was hardly any left in the athens museum as all or most were sent to macedonia.???

That's the official policy, that all artifacts are displayed locally (if possible). The National Archaeological Museum of Athens may probably still have a small Macedonian Collection. Most Vergina findings are displayed in an excellent new Museum at Vergina and some of them may still remain at the Museum of Thessaloniki.

I have been visiting Amphipolis every summer, because there are festivities at the Archaeological site and an excellent beach nearby. They also already have an excellent Museum, far better and richer than the Museum at Serres (the district's capital city).

Do you have a doctorate degree?

I am fairly certain expressing your opinion is legal and valid. But judging from your answer (or lack thereof) and your ethnicity, I would have to infer you believe in the traditional Greek position.

Yes, I took my PhD long time ago. The positions on ethnicity are mostly based on the language (which is mostly unknown). Borza’s opinion is that the language was not Greek. The Greek arguments suggest that either the language was partly or fully Greek or was gradually abandoned, mixed or transformed to Greek.


==

[Philosopher]

The positions on ethnicity are mostly based on the language (which is mostly unknown). Borza’s opinion is that the language was not Greek. The Greek arguments suggest that either the language was partly or fully Greek or was gradually abandoned, mixed or transformed to Greek.

Language is a curious thing indeed. Do you believe if Serbia (or Turkey) conquered Greece two hundred years ago (a hypothetical) and all of Greece adopted Serbian (Slavic) and no one spoke Greek. How would modern Greeks self-identify -- Greek or Slavic?

How would Westerners identify modern Greeks? Slavic speaking ethnic Greeks? Or ethnic Slavs?

[Amphipolis]

Language is a curious thing indeed. Do you believe if Serbia (or Turkey) conquered Greece two hundred years ago (a hypothetical) and all of Greece adopted Serbian (Slavic) and no one spoke Greek. How would modern Greeks self-identify -- Greek or Slavic?

Two centuries is a very short period for a language and an ethnicity to disappear. Self-identification does not rely only in language (or only on religion); it also depends on political choices and circumstantial events.

I think you should look to Egyptians as an example. Are they Egyptians, or simply Arabs? The ancient Egyptian name was Kemet (or something like that), the name Egypt comes from ancient Greece and the name they use now (Misir/Misar) is Semitic.

How would Westerners identify modern Greeks? Slavic speaking ethnic Greeks? Or ethnic Slavs?

Who knows? Politically, Egyptians are recognized under this name (Egypt), I'm not certain as to how they see themselves and the divisions among them.

I once met a young Egyptian and told him "Congratulation. I heard you�re the new chairman of the African Club". Clearly insulted, he corrected me that he was the Chairman of the Arab Club, that he's Egyptian and Egyptians are not Africans but Arabs (!?!). And the funny part... this guy was not a typical Egyptian, but (basically) a black guy or at least a mix of Mediterranean and Negro features.

[Philosopher]

Two centuries is a very short period for a language and an ethnicity to disappear. Self-identification does not rely only in language (or only on religion); it also depends on political choices and circumstantial events.

It is a hypothetical. It is not meant to be realistic. And you avoided answering the question. Here is another.

Say the Slavs who migrated to the Balkans wiped out the Greek language in Greece and the islands. Say all Greeks have spoken Slavic since then. And say Greece was part of Yugoslavia. Would modern day Greeks identify as Slavic? Would Westerners identify them ethnic Slavs?

I think you should look to Egyptians as an example. Are they Egyptians, or simply Arabs? The ancient Egyptian name was Kemet (or something like that), the name Egypt comes from ancient Greece and the name they use now (Misir/Misar) is Semitic.

Misrain is an ancient word, predating the Arabs by many centuries. There is no easy answer. Generally speaking, most Muslim Egyptians identify as Arab. Christian Egyptians identify as Coptic.

Who knows? Politically, Egyptians are recognized under this name (Egypt), I'm not certain as to how they see themselves and the divisions among them.

I once met a young Egyptian and told him "Congratulation. I heard you’re the new chairman of the African Club". Clearly insulted, he corrected me that he was the Chairman of the Arab Club, that he's Egyptian and Egyptians are not Africans but Arabs (!?!). And the funny part... this guy was not a typical Egyptian, but (basically) a black guy or at least a mix of Mediterranean and Negro features.

Interesting story. But not unusual.

[Amphipolis]

It is a hypothetical. It is not meant to be realistic. And you avoided answering the question. Here is another.

Say the Slavs who migrated to the Balkans wiped out the Greek language in Greece and the islands. Say all Greeks have spoken Slavic since then. And say Greece was part of Yugoslavia. Would modern day Greeks identify as Slavic? Would Westerners identify them ethnic Slavs?

LOL, I avoid answering because I don't know what to say. Most probably YES. If Greeks were totally absorbed, and all traces of their language and existence were somehow lost, they would presently be considered a lost disappeared tribe, like... Thracians.

It's certain that today several countries (mostly Turkey, Bulgaria, USA and France) include descendants of Greeks that were recently mixed and assimilated and are not aware or care about their Greek ancestry.


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[Nikolaj]

The importance of archaeological evidence in the name dispute is overstated. Think of the tons of arguments of each side (as often displayed in the forum). Which percentage comes from ancient text? Which percentage comes from recent archaeological discoveries of the last two or three centuries?

Being a scholar myself I generally DO trust archaeologists (and scientists in general). In the film Fugitive there’s an evil doctor who falsifies evidence of medical research in order to get rich through a commercial scum. Well, this is too much Hollywood and it’s not MY experience from Science. Most Professors are square guys with increased integrity, high intelligence and thirst for knowledge. Overconfidence, obsession and arrogance are the most common weaknesses for some of them. They always seem to know everything.

I’ve often seen disbelief towards Andronikos’ opinions in this forum, but I’ve never heard doubts on scientific integrity or innuendos he falsified evidence. Most arguments against his theories were based on evidence his team discovered, preserved and described in detail in papers & books.

My impression is that you mistrust them because they’re Greeks, not because they’re archaeologists. Any excavation involves many people and I guess some procedures and standards so that theft or removal of evidence is (almost) impossible. That would be a serious crime, not only from a scientific, but also from a legal point of view.

In Greece, there’s mistrust on the excavation related to what we call trolling or conspiracy theories. That’s not to be taken seriously but tends to become a social mental disease in our time. You wouldn’t want to know these theories, but I can tell you most of them involve Alexander the Great or Samaras.




I do not perceive your questions as an attack, but furthermore I don’t even mind attacks. I mean, it’s not like being attacked with a knife or something.

The term Macedonian Tomb does not refer to all tombs in Macedonia. This is only a type of Tomb, a new fashion that starts suddenly in 4th Century BC as a result of the fast increase of power and wealth in Macedonia. There may be around 50, only three were found not looted (one of them is Philip’s Tomb). Several of them have the name or names of the dead people (e.g. the Family Tomb of Lyson and Callicles at Leukadia, Naousa).

I think common graves had markers (headstones) ON them, called epitymbia stele, which literally means stele ON the tomb. There are hundreds of them, a good percentage of inscriptions are headstones. As for Macedonian Tombs, all of them are recent discoveries, which means that their markers were lost in time.




That was a joke. What’s interesting with the missing part is the (close to perfect) circular shape at the centre, for which there are several theories. It seems there was a heavy, valuable object (altar?) that was removed by looters. Yet, the pebbles were found (detached) in the soil and the missing part will be fully restored.

There are also recent leaks (THAT'S NOT OFFICIAL YET) that the floor at the entry of third chamber is destroyed. At first they thought it’s from natural causes but then they realised it’s as if looters had removed the limestone with a shovel and were trying to unearth something(!!).


===

Thanks for your honest opinion Amphipolis.

I can see most of your questions were rhetorical and even though debatable, going into discussion would be too tedious as I clearly don't have evidence of archeological corruption within Greece.

I respect that you believe that this may not be an issue, which is why I also considered earlier that it possible that they are truly honest archeologists.

I just realised, it is not actually necessary to destroy or hide evidence of these things. E.g. The cultural diversity of the ancient Macedonians.

I recall in Borza's book 'In the Shadows of Olympus - The Emergence of Macedon' that the recent findings of Macedonian tombs had Persian, Greek and Thracian cultural influence. When Greece's politics and online posters use archeology as evidence for the Greekness of Macedonians, it is only a misrepresentation and distortion of the evidence. They propose the Greek culture of the Macedonians, but not the others, to promote the idea that they were Greek. Much like why E.Borza criticised Hammond's drastic change of opinion on whether or not the Macedonians were Greek due to the inscriptions found on the Pella curse tablet. Borza emphasised that this is no different to finding Greek inscriptions and Greek inscribed coins in Thrace, but Hammond didn't think it needed a second thought even after his other two volumes were against this notion.

Thank you for reminding me that I do not have to resort to corruption when speaking about archeology.. but rather distortion and misrepresentation of the findings.

[George S.]

People sell thrir mother for mony when it comes to archselogy.
Both sides are just as bad.HOw anout the golden wreaths
They are valued priceless what if they go missing.
The ornateness etc is amazing.the ctaftmandhip unsurpassed.iRreplaceble.

[Philosopher]

LOL, I avoid answering because I don't know what to say. Most probably YES.

At least you are honest. And the answer is most likely NO.

If Greeks were totally absorbed, and all traces of their language and existence were somehow lost, they would presently be considered a lost disappeared tribe, like... Thracians.

If you have been following this forum for as long as you have, you would know the Slavs who invaded the Balkans comprise a very small percentage of the genetic profile of Greeks (10-18%). Seeing this is a scientific fact, I find it very unlikely that modern day Slav speaking Greeks would not argue "Hey, we live in the same land as the ancient Greeks, our genetic profile is consistent with pre-Slavic Mediterranean people, but we adopted the Slavic tongue in the past".

This is why language alone does not prove ethnicity.

It's certain that today several countries (mostly Turkey, Bulgaria, USA and France) include descendants of Greeks that were recently mixed and assimilated and are not aware or care about their Greek ancestry.

This is different. We are not speaking about immigrants in foreign countries.

[George S.]

turkey is a fine example of greek assimilation virtually all but dissapeared until they were used in the population exchanges.

[Amphipolis]

The first official video from the excavation

Δείτε το πρώτο βίντεο από την ανασκαφή στην Αμφίπολη! - YouTube