Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[Philosopher]

So it's either we don't believe the figures of Rossos, or we believe them and thus consider that you are macedonian slavs.

Correct me if I'm wrong Philosopher. It's your citations.

A few points.

First, they are not the figures of Rossos. It is an independent census from the time. The question must be asked why the BFO identifies Macedonian Slavs as the clear majority when the 1911 Encyclopedia does not even mention Macedonians?

The simple answer is that the censuses were politicized.

Either way, Greeks were a very small minority. The question must be asked -- how did Greeks become the majority, and what happened to all the Slavic speakers? Oh, yeah, that's right, they were ethnically cleansed.

Second, Rossos believes in the traditional theory, the Slavic Migration Theory, which many on this forum reject. He believes Slavs migrated to the Balkans, intermixed with the original Balkan people, absorbed them, and forced Slavic on them.

We disagree with Rossos on this point.

[Philosopher]

Makendonche,

I have no idea where to begin with your comical drivel. You strike me as an Agent Provocateur. One of those "hardcore" Macedonians who demand some sort of racial "purity". You may in fact be a Greek.

You claim that someone who is not 100% Macedonian can identify as Macedonian, but at the same time you insist he cannot be a real Macedonian, for he is not pure. You are worse than the most fundamentalist Jewish Cohen.

You also claim (without evidence) that I support Macedonia comprising its identity in favor of EU and NATO membership. How wrong you are. I am against EU and NATO membership even if Macedonian could enter under the name Republic of Macedonia.

You keep writing about me being a Greek Macedonian. Buddy, I have been on this forum longer than you, and my presence on the Maknews forum even years earlier, the last thing I need to do is answer myself to you.

You claim to be a pure Macedonian. There is no such thing. There are no pure people on this planet. Look at any genetic study. All human beings are related, and all human beings are mixed. There are no pure people. Desist from your rubbish.

You have serious problems. You need professional help. Stop your defamation, and stop you absurd drivel.

[Risto the Great]

So, one day they proclaimed them turkish nationals and sent them to greece. No matter what they were called a couple of years ago.
Tell a turk, that he accepted greek nationals home when there was the exchange. Let's see what he answers.

They were greek my friend. Of greek identity.

I am just being more accurate. They were citizens of the nation of Turkey. Just like Macedonians are citizens inside the Greek nation now. (Very unlike that Greek MEP slapper who calls herself "Macedonian" without any further descriptor though.)

You instead think it is easier to paint all of those people as Greek. They are now Greek if that helps you. Even the ones who couldn't understand the Greeks when they arrived in Greece. Even the Cappadocians.

I think Greeks are amazing in the sense that they will let anyone qualify as a Greek. Imagine if Italians called Spaniards and the French as Italians. Greeks do this with their distant relatives in Turkey and Cyprus, but then call Germans as Italians as well when we talk about the Albanians. Really very amazing.

You are starting to put words in my mouth. I was clear about this. To everyone speaking greek.
I gave you an example with the arvanites, didn't I?

So am I having this example of greek prior 1850 from you, to see what you are talking about, or what?

I am not talking about the Albanians of Greece. They just learned how to speak the new language earlier than my people. I was talking about the people that most would call Greeks back then.

So you deny the influences of katharevousa during the 1800's, is that your position?

The most influential Greek intellectual leader of the pre-revolutionary period, Adamantios Korais (photo L), lived in Paris and published a huge output of educational and cultural works.

Korais argued that in principle the modern Greek language should be the basis of Greek education and culture, but that the spoken language was corrupt and debased as a result of centuries of foreign domination.

For this reason, he argued, the modern language needed to be "corrected" according to ancient Greek rules.This involved (a) rejecting the hundreds of everyday words that the Greeks had borrowed over the centuries from the Romans, the Turks and various western European peoples, and replacing them with words that were either ancient Greek or at least based on ancient Greek roots, (b) inventing new words to express modern concepts that had hitherto been unknown to the Greeks (again these words were to be formed out of ancient Greek roots), and (c) restoring the ancient Greek declensions and conjugations of nouns and verbs. The language that Korais wrote in - and which he promoted - formed the basis for the official language of the new Greek state, which later came to be known as katharevousa (literally, "the purifying language").

Nothing here for you?
Or are all Greeks living in denial about their Neohellenic Koine?
Like I said before, you understand everything now, you just don't appear to know why.

Like I said before, it's all fine. More power to you, and the Croatians are doing the same thing right now. Just saying Macedonians never did that and understand 1000 year old texts without any purification.

The following text seems about right to me:

Today the battle between the proponents of demotic and katharevousa belongs to the past, and the written language today, while largely based on demotic, uses a large number of ancient and katharevousa features. If there is still a language controversy today, it is the debate about the compulsory teaching of Ancient Greek. In my own personal view, a recognition that Modern Greek is a language in itself, free of dependence on Ancient Greek, would be a genuine sign of pride and confidence in a modern Greek identity.


* Peter Mackridge is Professor Emeritus of Modern Greek at the University of Oxford. He contributed this article to the Athens News Paideia Supplement

You should be proud of your new identity.

[George S.]

Spitfire i wasn't meaning rossos in general more so the thrust in general of the greek camp to dissolve any macedonian conciousness or existence.Its as simple as that.I don't disagree with rossos and would tend to agree with what he says.

[Nikolaj]

Spitfire it seems as though you are missing the point of now.

[makedonche]

Philosopher

I have no idea

This is the first bit of sense you have made so far, keep working on it...still a long way to go!

You strike me as an Agent Provocateur. One of those "hardcore" Macedonians who demand some sort of racial "purity".

Call me anything you like, as long as you can back it up! Otherwise your relevance here is rapidly diminishing!

You may in fact be a Greek.

Now you've overstepped the mark...despite having explained it all to you ad nauseum, where the fuck do you get off even remotely suggesting that I am Greek, I take it this is your way of insulting me, that's fine, only a Greek would have the nerve to insult a Macedonian on a Macedonian Forum....shit for brains!

You claim that someone who is not 100% Macedonian can identify as Macedonian, but at the same time you insist he cannot be a real Macedonian, for he is not pure. You are worse than the most fundamentalist Jewish Cohen.

OK smartarse, show me exactly where I claimed this - the precise quote thanks, otherwise piss off back to your Greek Macedonia.

You also claim (without evidence) that I support Macedonia comprising its identity in favor of EU and NATO membership. How wrong you are. I am against EU and NATO membership even if Macedonian could enter under the name Republic of Macedonia.

Now I am convinced you have comprehension difficulties, similar to Spitfire, obviously made from the same cloth.......once again please post the exact quote, don't go inventing anything like your Greek friend!

You keep writing about me being a Greek Macedonian. Buddy, I have been on this forum longer than you, and my presence on the Maknews forum even years earlier, the last thing I need to do is answer myself to you.

I could't give a rat's arse how long you've been around, you're the one suggesting it's ok to call yourself Greek Macedonian, so what...now you don't like the new tag you've created for yourself? You don't need to answer yourself to me....unless you make idiotic comments about me or imply I'm something other than Macedonian ( without factual evidence I might ad).

You claim to be a pure Macedonian.

Again?......show me the exact quote!

There is no such thing. There are no pure people on this planet. Look at any genetic study. All human beings are related, and all human beings are mixed. There are no pure people. Desist from your rubbish.

Prove it!

You have serious problems. You need professional help. Stop your defamation, and stop you absurd drivel.

Your inability to grasp the essence of what I am referring to in the context of this thread, proves beyond reasonable doubt who has serious problems! That being the case you are in no position to determine who needs professional help...imbecile. Defamation????? WTF...those are all your good points, go and look up the definition of defamation you moron, you're on a forum, better still go home and cry to your mother.

[spitfire]

I have all the tangible proof I need, when was the last time you walked past the ruins and they spoke to you? what did they say?
You still haven't answered my question....."how's your search going"?

No you don't, you simply ask your mom.

All these archaeological sites speak to me about the continuity of my culture for thousands of years. Let me see yours.

I don't have to search for anything. Everything appears on its own. I stumbled upon some ancient statues in my back yard the other day. I threw them away. My... garbage is full of ancient marble with inscriptions in greek.
It's like this in greece. But I am used to it.

[spitfire]

Spitfire
What I think this is has nothing to do with football, unless of course you're Greek and you can make a football out of dillusion and denial!
Golden Dawn member...aren't they a part of Syzria the political party in Greece? how do you manage to associate them with a Macedonian? What a sad excuse for a Greek you are, although it's likely that your mixed breeding has had a considerable impact on your mental state!

Syriza is radical left, Golden Dawn is far right. The complete opposite that is.
Is this so much you know about it?

[makedonche]

Syriza is radical left, Golden Dawn is far right. The complete opposite that is.
Is this so much you know about it?

Spitfire
Are you trying to tell me Syzria has nothing to do with Golden Dawn?

[makedonche]

No you don't, you simply ask your mom.

All these archaeological sites speak to me about the continuity of my culture for thousands of years. Let me see yours.

I don't have to search for anything. Everything appears on its own. I stumbled upon some ancient statues in my back yard the other day. I threw them away. My... garbage is full of ancient marble with inscriptions in greek.
It's like this in greece. But I am used to it.

Spitifre
Typical response....go and find your great grandparents and ask them!
The rest is typical Greek mythology.....standard explanations from you!

[spitfire]

I am just being more accurate. They were citizens of the nation of Turkey. Just like Macedonians are citizens inside the Greek nation now. (Very unlike that Greek MEP slapper who calls herself "Macedonian" without any further descriptor though.)

They were citizens of a country that was formed two years before, by the neo-turks.
The turks, were a minority until the very end of the ottoman empire. Today everybody in turkey (except the Kurds) have a turkish conciousness. Do your study first my friend before you be historically inacurate.

You instead think it is easier to paint all of those people as Greek. They are now Greek if that helps you. Even the ones who couldn't understand the Greeks when they arrived in Greece. Even the Cappadocians.

Absolutely and the Pontiacs also. Cultural and linguistic bonds is what matters. That's what mattered for turkey too for their people.
I am stating the obvious.

I think Greeks are amazing in the sense that they will let anyone qualify as a Greek. Imagine if Italians called Spaniards and the French as Italians. Greeks do this with their distant relatives in Turkey and Cyprus, but then call Germans as Italians as well when we talk about the Albanians. Really very amazing.

As Isocrates said, even you can become greek. If you share the culture and education.
We are not racist.

I am not talking about the Albanians of Greece. They just learned how to speak the new language earlier than my people. I was talking about the people that most would call Greeks back then.

Arvanites my friend. They were against the Albanians. Do your history study again.
In fact, the Albanians that were fighting alongside the Ottomans were called turk-albanians.
The Arvanites on the other hand were fighting alongside the greeks.

So you deny the influences of katharevousa during the 1800's, is that your position?

Absolutely. I don't deny the futile effort of purification though. Had it been a succesful one, we should have been speaking that type of greek today. We never did.
In any case Katharevousa is greek also therefore this means nothing. It's still greek and not some other language.

Nothing here for you?
Or are all Greeks living in denial about their Neohellenic Koine?
Like I said before, you understand everything now, you just don't appear to know why.

Tell me more about Koine. I like to read it from people who haven't got any clue about the greek language. Be my guest in showing that you don't know what you are talking about.

I'm still waiting for your examples by the way. Any chance you provide me with one?
Just one.

Like I said before, it's all fine. More power to you, and the Croatians are doing the same thing right now. Just saying Macedonians never did that and understand 1000 year old texts without any purification.

I don't know what the croatians are doing. I don't care, I speak of the greek language.

The following text seems about right to me:

You should be proud of your new identity.

Instead of reading something about something you are not aware of, why don't you learn some greek and be up to the task of discussing this issue?
This is another example of how the demotic, the non purified, is close to the ancient greek.
So what happened to that purification of Katharevousa then?
Let me give you the answer:
All these are the same language.

Feel free to ask someone who speaks greek and not read arguments of the ignorant. We don't seperate the greek language because of few differentiations that are in fact the same proponents of the types of the language.
We do that, because all these "types" are completely understandable for enyone who uses the vernacular of a certain type. That's why we do it. We don't close our eyes to the obvious. Otherwise we would be like Korais and his futile effort to make a language out of a language, concluding in the same language.
And please bring an example of what you are talking about.

[spitfire]

Spitfire
Are you trying to tell me Syzria has nothing to do with Golden Dawn?

Don't say that to anyone else. I don't mind, because I can understand your ignorance about the political parties in greece, but don't say it to anyone else because they will lauph immensely.

Syriza is the complete opposite of Golden Dawn.
In fact it is Syriza that has a more mutual understanding approach to the name issue. Samaras is the leader of a right wing party, with far right wing opinions on most matters.

[spitfire]

Spitifre
Typical response....go and find your great grandparents and ask them!
The rest is typical Greek mythology.....standard explanations from you!

Tangible past is not mythology makedonche. Mythology is something that consists of no findings.
Get your facts straight.
You can't read inscriptions in your language in any finding. I can. Stick to facts, or stop proposing this poison. It's bad for you, especially when talking to someone who does not deny your macedonian identity.
Be reasonable.

[spitfire]

A few points.

First, they are not the figures of Rossos. It is an independent census from the time. The question must be asked why the BFO identifies Macedonian Slavs as the clear majority when the 1911 Encyclopedia does not even mention Macedonians?

The simple answer is that the censuses were politicized.

Either way, Greeks were a very small minority. The question must be asked -- how did Greeks become the majority, and what happened to all the Slavic speakers? Oh, yeah, that's right, they were ethnically cleansed.

Second, Rossos believes in the traditional theory, the Slavic Migration Theory, which many on this forum reject. He believes Slavs migrated to the Balkans, intermixed with the original Balkan people, absorbed them, and forced Slavic on them.

We disagree with Rossos on this point.

This is a point where you can't bring Rossos up then. That's because you are selecting only the parts that you think are in your favor.

I like to be a little more credible and straightforward to my arguments. It's a matter of integrity.

I think Rossos is exaggerating the numbers.

[makedonche]

Spitfire

Tangible past is not mythology makedonche. Mythology is something that consists of no findings

Oh well there goes half your history! Tell me about the 4,000 years of continous history part.......if it's not mythology!

Get your facts straight.

Which ones in particular?

You can't read inscriptions in your language in any finding.

....and your evidence of this is?

especially when talking to someone who does not deny your macedonian identity.

...really, then what do these following 2 quotes allude to?

So it's either we don't believe the figures of Rossos, or we believe them and thus consider that you are macedonian slavs.

Correct me if I'm wrong Philosopher. It's your citations.

...and

Andrew Rossos speaks of a fairly estimate of the BFO, disregarding the rest of the estimates as being not fair, but this fairly estimate refers to Macedonian Slavs.

So it has to be this, or it doesn't have to be this. Place your bets. I bet he is exaggerating also.

?????????????