Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[spitfire]

Spitfire
Yes I read all you wrote....I'm writing this slowly so you understand....I don't need to ask if you read what I wrote...it's self evident, more denial!

Propaganda has made a mash in your head makedonche. I've encountered this many times in my life. It's typical and it has patterns. No worries.

[Amphipolis]

Thank you Amphi, where did you read this?
I thought her mother was of Asia minor descent? Do you consider her mother Greek?

Are you sure she was born there? Either way, her parents were imports. A pretty tenuous link to Macedonia at best.

Her mother was born in Thessalonike (I estimate in the late 1950s), spent her teens in Alexandria (Hemathia, not Egypt) and returned to Thessalonike for her studies. Her ancestry particularly hails from Cappadocia and Pontus. There are several websites about them as both parents of Eva are (minor) public figures in Thessalonike. Yes, of course I consider them Greeks.

Two to Three decades, you are easily mixed.
Two to Three decades! they must have no form of self respect what so ever to be converted so easily. How do you accept such worthless people into your country?
If they had no respect for their own lands how will they treat yours?

Wait, is this referring to our ex-Mayor?

You know your mother was not an ethnic/native Macedonian.
Where did she come from?

That’s not what I said, and I was referring to my grandmother.


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[Amphipolis]

My relatives in Greece did not speak Greek over 70 years ago. Do you think they would have been taught to speak a dialect of Greek or textbook Greek?

How is that possible? Are you saying Greek was not their home language or they couldn't speak Greek at all in the mid-1940s?

[Amphipolis]

Bring any of those texts to Greeks of 150 years ago. That is my point that you are either deliberately evading or unable to grasp. They either spoke Albanian or a version of Greek that meant they didn't understand what you understand now. What you understand now is a product of the catharsis. You can play around with that concept but, if you don't understand me, you should be grateful that I have helped you with your own history.

Greek language hasn't seriously changed in the last 10-15 centuries for various reasons. The Cretan plays of 1500s-1600s are watched and enjoyed today in theater without needing any modification (just as English watch Shakespeare).

If you go further back in Hellenistic Period and Bible Greek there start the problems. Since 20th Century all ancient plays are performed transferred in Modern Greek; before that, such an action was unusual and was probably seen as inappropriate (like some form of blasphemy). It’s rare nowadays to see performances in the original; usually it’s among students or for special occasions.


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[spitfire]

Greek language hasn't seriously changed in the last 10-15 centuries for various reasons. The Cretan plays of 1500s-1600s are watched and enjoyed today in theater without needing any modification (just as English watch Shakespeare).

Exactly. Erotokritos from the 17th century for instance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwDomxyoFgU

[Philosopher]

Partly correct, the last section I strongly disagree with - no such thing as both ethnic Greek and ethnic Macedonian....this is the bullshit game played by Greeks to claim they are Macedonian and hang their hats on, to maintain this farce called the "name negotiations"! Newsflash.....126(appx) countries recognise the Republic of Macedonia by it's self chosen name.....the balance of ignoramus' are in denial, particularly the platesmashers!

You are misinterpreting my words.

Let me clarify. If my mother is Italian, and my father is Macedonian, what does that make me? It makes me both ethnic Italian and Macedonian.

So in the same sense, if my mother is an ethnic Greek, and my father is an ethnic Macedonian, this would make me both Macedonian and Greek.

[Risto the Great]

That's totally different to what we have discussed so far. You are now telling me that greek was not understood by those who did not speak greek.
No my friend, any type of vernacular in greek is compatible with each other.
If you are reffering to those who were speaking Arvanitika, then arvanitika is not greek, but a different language. They used greek syntax and there were words that originated from greek, but it was not greek (neither Albanian though). Arvanites were developing a language that was in between at the time. That language stopped evolving since they were absorbed by greeks and today only very few speak it.
To those that spoke the vernacular greek, any greek text (provided they could read) was tangible.

You seem to be deliberately trying to confuse everyone and I question your sincerity. It is well documented that the former Turkish nationals who arrived in Greece in the 1920's could barely understand the locals when they arrived. If we go back further in time, the differences in language were even greater. You can say how you understand Greek words dating back to pre Phoenecian times, but that is simply a product of your modern identity. A product of the machinations to introduce archaic words into a very transformed (and natural) language of the 1850's. You can say what you want, but you will have to find me a Greek of Morea in 1820 and show him your ancient texts to convince me that you are not kidding yourself and others.

[makedonche]

Propaganda has made a mash in your head makedonche. I've encountered this many times in my life. It's typical and it has patterns. No worries.

Spitfire

No, my head is perfectly clear, it comes from knowing who & what I am, & who my forefathers were! Unlike your good self and the majority of Greeks who have an identity crisis from not being able to trace their forefathers or where they came from or where their mother was from or their fathers origins! I'm not surprised in the slightest you've encountered this many times in your life, given you have to live with it!

[makedonche]

You are misinterpreting my words.

Let me clarify. If my mother is Italian, and my father is Macedonian, what does that make me? It makes me both ethnic Italian and Macedonian.

So in the same sense, if my mother is an ethnic Greek, and my father is an ethnic Macedonian, this would make me both Macedonian and Greek.

Philosopher
You're either ethnic Macedonian or you're not, stop trying to mix the two together as if we have some sort of ethnic affiliation with the platesmashers, you're just being sucked into their game!

[Philosopher]

Philosopher
You're either ethnic Macedonian or you're not, stop trying to mix the two together as if we have some sort of ethnic affiliation with the platesmashers, you're just being sucked into their game!

You still don't understand, do you? This is not about ethnic affiliation with Greeks.

Offspring are the result of the biological parents. if one parent is German, and the other Macedonian, the offspring cannot be 100% of only one group. The offspring can only be 50% of each ethnicity.

You cannot be either "Macedonian or you're not" if you are the offspring of biological parents with two different ethnicities. That is an absurd statement.

What part of this does your belligerent mind not understand?

[vicsinad]

Makedonche:

I don't think Philosopher is saying anything other than if a Greek marries a Macedonian, then the child will be half Greek and half Macedonian.

Philosopher:

Regarding the above: I guess it depends on how one defines ethnicity. I personally don't base it solely, or primarily, on ancestry. To me, and probably many anthropologists, it is just as much (if not more) socially constructed and thus based on culture, language, etc. If a Greek marries a Macedonian, the child could still identify his ethnic group as 100% Macedonian (or 100% Greek), depending on his culture, language, social surroundings, citizenship, and mentality.

[Philosopher]

Makedonche:

I don't think Philosopher is saying anything other than if a Greek marries a Macedonian, then the child will be half Greek and half Macedonian.

A bit obvious to everyone except Makedonche.

Philosopher:

Regarding the above: I guess it depends on how one defines ethnicity. I personally don't base it solely, or primarily, on ancestry. To me, and probably many anthropologists, it is just as much (if not more) socially constructed and thus based on culture, language, etc. If a Greek marries a Macedonian, the child could still identify his ethnic group as 100% Macedonian (or 100% Greek), depending on his culture, language, social surroundings, citizenship, and mentality.

No disagreements. I know someone who is both Serbian and Macedonian, but only identities as Serbian. (born in Serbia, Serbian surname, and speaks Serbian). However, regardless of how the offspring self-identifies, he or she cannot make the argument that both parents are ethnic Serbians.

This is my point.

[makedonche]

Philiosopher

No disagreements. I know someone who is both Serbian and Macedonian, but only identities as Serbian. (born in Serbia, Serbian surname, and speaks Serbian). However, regardless of how the offspring self-identifies, he or she cannot make the argument that both parents are ethnic Serbians.

This is my point.

You can call yourself whatever you like....except don't try and be Macedonian.....unless both your parents are Macedonian! Which part don't you understand?
If you are half of one and half another, don't bother calling yourself Macedonian, simple enough for you?

[makedonche]

Makedonche:

I don't think Philosopher is saying anything other than if a Greek marries a Macedonian, then the child will be half Greek and half Macedonian.

Philosopher:

Regarding the above: I guess it depends on how one defines ethnicity. I personally don't base it solely, or primarily, on ancestry. To me, and probably many anthropologists, it is just as much (if not more) socially constructed and thus based on culture, language, etc. If a Greek marries a Macedonian, the child could still identify his ethnic group as 100% Macedonian (or 100% Greek), depending on his culture, language, social surroundings, citizenship, and mentality.

Vicsinad
I get it crystal clear, what Philosopher fails to grasp is that every time you dilute the Macedonian identity, either through genetics or self identification as half or part Macedonian or Greek Macedonian or Macedonian Greek, you feed the Greeks all the ammunition they need to use against you, understand?

[makedonche]

Philosopher

You still don't understand, do you? This is not about ethnic affiliation with Greeks.

And which part do you not understand that any affiliation, ethnic or otherwise is another valuable concession to Greeks to enable them to prove Macedonian is Greek and always has been...as they currently claim. However if you stand up for your rights and declare you are Macedonian and your parents were and their parents were etc., without a mention of the word Greek, you deny them the associability and subsequently draw a distinction between the two as separate people/ethnicities, which is exactly what they are. If however your father is Greek and your mother is Macedonian, if you feel Greek or insist on being a Greek citizen, then don't call yourself Macedonian, stick to Greek! Understand?