Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[spitfire]

Spitfire if thats your real name...

Should I change it to hurricane or messerschmitt?

[George S.]

Only if you are greek after all its all greek isn't it?Seeing you are infavour of the golden dawn how about messerschmit.You must be having a field day with your multiple accounts here on this forum.Who cares if you ridicule or belittle people as long as you have your fun.

[spitfire]

What makes you think I'm for golden dawn and a multiple account George?

I'm really interested to know.

[George S.]

what more could be said of the ostructive policies used by the greeks on macedonia's ascencion to eu or nato.

[spitfire]

I see. So you don't want to answer George. FYI, I'm politically placed at the opposite of golden dawn, and this is my only account ever.

Now spare me your hatred and start thinking about the wonderfull things in life, like music. Everybody loves music.
Here's a song from a composer that was imprisoned from those who represent today golden dawn.

http://youtu.be/KJQxd41vugo

Enjoy. It's superb.

[Philosopher]

In which encyclopedia is this stated? That's your own conclusion and not the conclusion of the references you cited.

It is a logical deduction based on my analysis. I never wrote or even suggested the encyclopedia stated this.

So the macedonians the BFO refers to are slavs. That's the point.

It is not the point.

The BFO speaks of “Macedonian Slavs”, not “Slavs”.

There is a world of difference.

The point here is that there were people who identified as “Macedonian”, and not Bulgarian, and that they were the majority.

It is the British Foreign Office who identified Macedonians as “Macedonian Slavs”.

The BBC still calls Macedonians “Slavs”.

As do other ignorant Westerners.

We can't stop how ignorant Westerners identify Macedonians.

Regardless of whether it is Macedonian or Macedonian Slavs, it is the same people being described.

Well, I did but here you are citing all these about the opposite.

This is semantics. Your objection to the BFO census is that it uses “Macedonian Slavs”, and not “Macedonians”.

We can't control how foreigners describe us or write about us.

The only important thing here is that the name “Macedonian” is used.

Again, all these are your conclusions, not the BFO's, not the encyclopedia's, not Rossos's (and wikipedia).

Not quite. There are deductions, but for the most part, this is what the two sources openly state.

[Philosopher]

It needs to be taken into account that part of the Slavic-speaking population in southern Macedonia regarded itself as ethnically Greek and a smaller percentage, mostly in northern Macedonia, as Serbian.

This is not an accurate statement, but there is another angle I would to like explore.

This is an interesting statement for two reasons.

First, since native language is generally the qualifier in ethnicity, one wonders how Slavic speaking persons can identify as ethnic Greeks.

And second, if these Slavic speaking persons in southern Macedonia were ethnic Greeks, then why use a different rule in defining Macedonians?

Since Macedonians are not ethnic Slavs, but Slavic speaking persons, why are they identified as ethnic Slavs, while some Slavic speaking people are identified as ethnic Greek?

The only logical inference is that Macedonians are ethnic Slavs, the descendants of Slavs, whereas some Slavic speaking ethnic Greeks are Greeks, the descendants of Greeks, but they adopted Slavic.

Note the double standard.

This is so commonplace in regard to some people. In particular Arabs and Slavs.

The Greeks and Serbs moderated their claims; the former claimed only the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia as Greeks, or Slavophone Greeks, and the latter only those of Vardar Macedonia as Serbs, or South Serbs. Consequently, the interwar censuses could not include a Macedonian category but treated Macedonians as Bulgarian, Greek, and Serbian nationals, respectively.

Slavophone Greeks. But Macedonians – what are they? They are not merely “Slavophone”, but Slavs. The double standards are glaringly dizzy.

[spitfire]

It is a logical deduction based on my analysis. I never wrote or even suggested the encyclopedia stated this.



It is not the point.

The BFO speaks of “Macedonian Slavs”, not “Slavs”.

There is a world of difference.

The point here is that there were people who identified as “Macedonian”, and not Bulgarian, and that they were the majority.

It is the British Foreign Office who identified Macedonians as “Macedonian Slavs”.

The BBC still calls Macedonians “Slavs”.

As do other ignorant Westerners.

We can't stop how ignorant Westerners identify Macedonians.

Regardless of whether it is Macedonian or Macedonian Slavs, it is the same people being described.



This is semantics. Your objection to the BFO census is that it uses “Macedonian Slavs”, and not “Macedonians”.

We can't control how foreigners describe us or write about us.

The only important thing here is that the name “Macedonian” is used.



Not quite. There are deductions, but for the most part, this is what the two sources openly state.

Not quite. Except the "semantics" (Macedonians Slavs) there is also the Bulgarian characteristics.

In order to presume a macedonian population you should deduct those with Bulgarian characteristics and call the rest macedonians. Therefore you end with a very small number (if any) that is not giving any credibility to your argument about the huge number of macedonians.

I hope you see the leap in logic with the numbers you claimed.

[Risto the Great]

The principle of (a) is correct and it did succeed to some extent. In some cases ancient words/roots have triumphed, in some cases they have totally failed, in some cases ancient and newer or foreign words for the same thing co-exist.

Thank you for your honesty. It really wasn't that difficult to admit was it? In all cases, the modern Greek assumes his language has been the same since time immemorial. The connection to antiquity has been bolstered by the "catharsis". The modern Greek lays claim to ancient words as a result of this process and also as a result of using the same alphabet. Nobody who speaks English lays claim to Latin in the same way, so we must accept the "catharsis" as the trigger for this relatively new connection to antiquity.

No, Ancient and Modern Greek are not different languages. For instance Hellas is the ancient name, Ellada is the demotic one which means that the ending is simplified and the root remains. Hellas and Hellada are not different words or words in different language and are both used today (actually Hellas is used more frequently).

Far more qualified people disagree with you. But I am sure the languages are much closer to being the same as a result of the "catharsis". Which was my point.

Ellines vs Romaioi anyone?

[Risto the Great]

If we analyze this statement under logic and not fantasy, then the encyclopedia refers to slavs and proceeds to define most of them as Bulgarians in characteristic.

That's about it. No reference of an ethnic group under the name macedonians. Not in the BFO census also.

Those people self identified as Macedonians and fought for an independent Macedonia. Given they were not described as Bulgarians, I can only assume it sends a shudder down your indoctrinated spine.

Given they were the absolute majority, I can only assume you are thankful for the christian former Turkish nationals who arrived in the 1920's to call themselves Macedonians now.

[spitfire]

Thank you for your honesty. It really wasn't that difficult to admit was it? In all cases, the modern Greek assumes his language has been the same since time immemorial. The connection to antiquity has been bolstered by the "catharsis". The modern Greek lays claim to ancient words as a result of this process and also as a result of using the same alphabet. Nobody who speaks English lays claim to Latin in the same way, so we must accept the "catharsis" as the trigger for this relatively new connection to antiquity.



Far more qualified people disagree with you. But I am sure the languages are much closer to being the same as a result of the "catharsis". Which was my point.

Ellines vs Romaioi anyone?

How can the modern greek "assume" that his language is the same when all those types are understandable?
To make this a point you need to have a type that is not "compatible" at some point. There isn't one.
For those that spoke Medieval greek, ancient greek was understandable. The same for those who spoke the language prior and after Katharevousa.

You have a hole in your argument.

What about Romaioi or did you mean actually Romioi? There is a difference.

[spitfire]

Those people self identified as Macedonians and fought for an independent Macedonia. Given they were not described as Bulgarians, I can only assume it sends a shudder down your indoctrinated spine.

Given they were the absolute majority, I can only assume you are thankful for the christian former Turkish nationals who arrived in the 1920's to call themselves Macedonians now.

Not according to the data so far presented to support the numbers. You 've missed that part presumably.

[spitfire]

Romios agapise romia, romia kai thessalonikia. (Greek man loved greek woman, greek woman and from thessaloniki).
The lyrics to an old music hit...

[Risto the Great]

If we analyze this statement under logic and not fantasy, then the encyclopedia refers to slavs and proceeds to define most of them as Bulgarians in characteristic.

That's about it. No reference of an ethnic group under the name macedonians. Not in the BFO census also.

You need to stop being a Greek "hater" and think a little bit more about what you are saying. You fatally equate "slavonic" with "slav". I have rarely seen the term "slavonic" used in any way other than to give an indication of language. Whilst the words seem to be interchangeable on some levels, there is definitely more of a language connection with "slavonic".

Slav (slɑːv)
n
1. (Peoples) a member of any of the peoples of E Europe or NW Asia who speak a Slavonic language

Which people/ethnicity do you want to categorise the Macedonians as, or are they all just "slavs" to you? I guess all humans can be lumped into one category as well .... except the Greeks of course.

I think I look like a slav more and more nowadays ... if only I knew what one looks like. Especially because not a single pathetically insecure Greek has ever tried to define it.

Let me know when you get it.

[Risto the Great]

Romios agapise romia, romia kai thessalonikia. (Greek man loved greek woman, greek woman and from thessaloniki).
The lyrics to an old music hit...

You should update the song for your persuasions.