Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[Philosopher]

No, they're not.

Yes, they are.

Rossos should first give the original data of the censuses and then explain HOW he synthesizes, changes or translates them. But he doesn't even do that.

Maybe you should check his footnotes. I have.

Amphipolis]Here are all the (real) censuses or documented estimations of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...atistical_data

Let me get this straight. You reject the writings of a serious scholar, Andrew Rossos, who has a PhD from Stanford University, in favor of a Wikipedia article written by a nameless person. And the article happens to present a "Macedonian-free" Balkans.

Are you serious?

If you will notice, however, this Wikipedia entry does not cite any original data. It presents data that is not corroborated by original sources, unlike Rossos.

What the entry does is present Ottoman Censuses of Macedonia from Hilmi Pasha (an ethnic Greek) as "fact", but gives no citation to support this fact.

Then it presents a 1911 Encyclopedia entry which documents that Greeks are a very small minority, and Slavs (Bulgarians) are the dominant population.

Where are the Macedonians in any of these censuses? They do not exist. How?

[Philosopher]

It needs to be taken into account that part of the Slavic-speaking population in southern Macedonia regarded itself as ethnically Greek and a smaller percentage, mostly in northern Macedonia, as Serbian. All Muslims (except the Albanians) tended to view themselves and were viewed as Turks, irrespective of their mother tongue.

Look at the bias of this entry. This is what Rossos wrote about. How shameful.

[spitfire]

So it's either we don't believe the figures of Rossos, or we believe them and thus consider that you are macedonian slavs.

Correct me if I'm wrong Philosopher. It's your citations.

[George S.]

others are determining who we are is that right.the greek govt has allready on false pretences that we are not macedonian but slavs is bs of the highest order.The word slav signifies a linguistic element of influence.Its not an ethnic influence.By the same token the greeks are slavs as well as the slavs went throughout all the balkans.The analasys has blown it with its bias ND ASSUMES A FALSE GENERALISATION..The slav term is more of a derogotary words as its not a ethnic description even though the people of that region HAVE ALLWAYS BEEN called MACEDONIAN.ASK the turks who we are Not slav but MACEDONIAN.OUr identity is not in question.Our enemies use our identity like a bargain chip.
So anyone questioning our identity is being derogotary and they are trying to link it all in an ethnic sense.All those people doing that were wrong to assume and generalise about the identity of the macedonians.It is all illogical based on false asumptions.We only recognize that we has an language influence not a complete replacement of the macedonian population.WE are not slavs we are macedonian.

[spitfire]

Andrew Rossos speaks of a fairly estimate of the BFO, disregarding the rest of the estimates as being not fair, but this fairly estimate refers to Macedonian Slavs.

So it has to be this, or it doesn't have to be this. Place your bets. I bet he is exaggerating also.

[George S.]

""Look at the bias of this entry. This is what Rossos wrote about. How shameful.""
Yes its shamefull because the greeks were also influenced by slavs.Also other peoples romans ,celts etc came through the balkans and didnot destroy the macedonian idemtity.
If there is no macedonian identity the greeks claim that macedonians and greeks were the same race.Are they really look at what the greeks tried to do.Forced assimilation,forbidding the speaking of macedonian etc.How can one race ofpeople be another race of people?How can one country belong to four other countries??

[George S.]

Spifire your greek govt etc including rossos underestimate the macedonian demographics.They put it down to a couple of thosand slavophone speakers etc What happened to the majority of macedonian from the aegean??Or is the greek govt hiding something understating the existence of macedonians.Yes they are they are in denial.Spitfire you are in denial you are towing the greek lie.

[spitfire]

Spifire your greek govt etc including rossos underestimate the macedonian demographics.They put it down to a couple of thosand slavophone speakers etc What happened to the majority of macedonian from the aegean??Or is the greek govt hiding something understating the existence of macedonians.Yes they are they are in denial.Spitfire you are in denial you are towing the greek lie.

I thought Rossos was brought up as a pro-macedonian argument about the numbers. I didn't know that he was pro-greek government.

I think the greek gvt. hides that they are reptilians George. What more can I say?

[makedonche]

Makedonche, you need to get a life. You sound like a total retard. How anyone can put up with your absurd comments and statements is beyond me. There are no pure people or pure nation on this planet. You are not a pure Macedonian. There is no such thing. It is morons such as yourself which give Macedonians a bad name.

You need to just shut up.

Philospoher
Iv'e tolerated your stupidity long enough, if you can't even grasp the simple concept of being able to trace your roots through your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents and so on, to the point of when your town was established and where they came from before that and discovered there was no Greeks living in your town and nobody spoke greek, other than travellers/diplomats ect., then there is absolutely no help for a fucking dillusional shit for brains like you who wants to be Greek Macedonian or Macedonian Greek or whatever the fuck it is you're trying to be, but one thing is for sure you're no fucking MACEDONIAN or any type of Macedonian or half Macedonian or quarter Macedonian or anything remotely resembling a Macedonian with a Macedonian consciousness. If you think I give Macedonians a bad name, what do you think your fucking stupidity is doing to the Macedonian name? I'll explain it to you since you're such a dumb fuck who is clueless about what's going on right in front of his eyes, which doesn't surprise me because in reality you're a pretend Macedonian who's happy to bend over and get fucked up the arse by any Greek who comes along, you don't even understand the basic concept of Macedonia having to change it's name in order to get into the EU or NATO, that Greece is demanding this as a precursor to entry into both establishments and using all it's political, social and any other means to impose this and has been ever since the Republic of Macedonia declared it's independence! Get the picture now shit for brains? Every time you call yourself Greek Macedonian or Macedonian Greek you play right into their hands and strengthen their argument that Macedonians were always Greek and Macedonia has always been a part of Greece and that this newly formed republic doesn't have the right to use the name and must change it's flag and be referred to as FYROM and change it's constitution......and so on.....and so on.
The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this or accept it or even realise what contribution your stupidity is making towards their claims is enough evidence for me to put you in the same category as those who have already sold out Macedonia!
Then you have the fucking nerve to try and tell me I'm stupid and the rest of bullshit dribble you came up with.....

Makedonche, you need to get a life. You sound like a total retard. How anyone can put up with your absurd comments and statements is beyond me. There are no pure people or pure nation on this planet. You are not a pure Macedonian. There is no such thing. It is morons such as yourself which give Macedonians a bad name

........because you either can't come up with a relevant argument or even be fucked standing up for Macedonia or Macedonians!
You're a fucking dumb shit for brains that is clueless and if Macedonia or the Macedonians have you to stand up /negotiate/represent them, then the country would have been know as "Skopjia" 20 years ago, or whatever else the Greeks wanted to call it! Wake the fuck up or piss the fuck off and stop diluting what little is left of Macedonia it's culture, history, language and most importantly, people who still give a shit and are prepared to stand up for it while fuckwits like you concede and negotiate and compromise and are happy to be Greek Macedonians, you fuckin ignoramus....and those are your good points!

[makedonche]

Philosopher

Here's what Spitfire has as his signature.....

Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
Benjamin Franklin

......read it over and over again until you understand it!

[makedonche]

A bunch of ruins?
So you don't have any tangible proof. You simply ask your mom, right?

I have all the tangible proof I need, when was the last time you walked past the ruins and they spoke to you? what did they say?
You still haven't answered my question....."how's your search going"?

[makedonche]

LOL, And why would Greeks be different from anyone else and not know where their parents or grandparents come from? What on earth do you mean? Everybody’s roots are lost at some point, because they’re (literally) like roots. The deeper you go, they geometrically increase and are lost in memory.

If you’re in an advanced country like USA or Germany you can find documents from 2 or 3 centuries back. In Greece public documents started only after the collapse of Ottoman Empire.

Personally I lose track mostly in the generation of my great-grandparents and the one before it. I know where they lived and had their children or what their job was, but for most of them that’s all I know. In some cases only, there’s info like someone was from another place or there’s an interesting story from the past. That’s circumstantial and personal but I doubt it’s much different for any of you. It’s also because I’m a commoner and none of my ancestors e.g. studied in University. Lastly, a bad thing is when an ancestor dies early and unexpectedly (lots of information and essential continuity is lost).

I once met a very nice guy from a noble family, for him it was totally different. Coming from an important Phanariote of 15th century, he had bunch of documents and information from then to now, at least for this branch of his family. His branch included several important figures like generals, ministers, local leaders, professors etc.

I have also found people who said: “I was lucky because at least my one grandfather had written everything down about his family history, so I have all this info”.

Bottom line: Find the oldest people in your family or close relatives; take them an interview and write 5-10 pages about them. Soon they will die, and most of the things they told you and you think you remember will be lost.

Amphipolis
So you have nothing prior to the end of the Ottoman Empire then, how does this equate to your countries theory of 4,000 years of continuity and the only country that is pure and has no minorities?

[makedonche]

Makedonche thinks this is a football match with supporters on each side. Yeah, typical. I can almost see him act like a typical golden dawn member if he was on the other side. No brains whatsoever. Bark, bark, aaaargh, ough!

Spitfire
What I think this is has nothing to do with football, unless of course you're Greek and you can make a football out of dillusion and denial!
Golden Dawn member...aren't they a part of Syzria the political party in Greece? how do you manage to associate them with a Macedonian? What a sad excuse for a Greek you are, although it's likely that your mixed breeding has had a considerable impact on your mental state!

[makedonche]

Philosopher

You are not a pure Macedonian.

You presumptuous turd, just because you don't know what the fuck you are, doesn't mean nobody else does. Kindly refrain from trying to tell me what I am and what I'm not, you half Greek dropkick!

[makedonche]

Philosopher

Here you go, congratulations, this is the result of your contributions to this thread......

Spitfire.....

So it's either we don't believe the figures of Rossos, or we believe them and thus consider that you are macedonian slavs.

Correct me if I'm wrong Philosopher. It's your citations.

....and this one...

Spitfire.....
Andrew Rossos speaks of a fairly estimate of the BFO, disregarding the rest of the estimates as being not fair, but this fairly estimate refers to Macedonian Slavs.

So it has to be this, or it doesn't have to be this. Place your bets. I bet he is exaggerating also.

BTW...Spitfire, it's becoming quite clear what your purpose is here!