Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[spitfire]

Spitfire


I don't take pills, people with dillusional qualities and denial problems usually need a good dose to maintain their mental state!

Thanks for the info. You seem to know well about the dose. I wonder why... .

More denial, keep it up! How exactly would you be related to the Acropolis?...dillusional again, although I can see the i.q's being similar, go and ask your grandparents what the English found at the Acropolis 190-200 years ago, you're probably related to them! You're right I can't, and why would I want to?

That's OK. I can and you can't. Stick to reality and tangible things that prove something, not imagination.
the English took from Acropolis what they found. Hopefully you understand why.

More than happy to! while I celebrate my indigenous Macedonian roots and ethnicity and have a laugh about you pretenders and wannabee Macedonians!

Good. Since you don't mind and you are happy to let me ask you. How does it feel not to have any tangible proof of your roots?

[Risto the Great]

I love it when you refer to turkish nationals prior to the existence of the turkish republic... .
A more real approach would be ottoman nationals, whatever that means. It means that there was exchange of populations, I hope you understand why.

They were citizens of the Turkish Republic before the treaty of 1923. Do you deny this? Or is it just true love.

The other part is pure propaganda. I proved to you how the language remains the same, and understood to everyone speaking greek at any time.
Show me the differences you are referring to prior to 1850 time and again my friend. Why are you not doing so? You 've been asked to do, not just by me, and you choose not to. Why?

You proved that your modern Greek claims all the languages since time immemorial. But you didn't prove that the Greeks of Morea (for example) were equally equipped.

[makedonche]

Spitfire

Thanks for the info. You seem to know well about the dose. I wonder why... .

.....Having to issue them to the dellusional hordes!

That's OK. I can and you can't.

So you can walk past them every day, congratulations, by your standards if you walked past Brad Pitt every day, that would make you an actor.....keep dreamin.

Stick to reality and tangible things that prove something, not imagination.

I do stick to reality and what I can prove, and I don't mean a bunch of rocks assembled in line! If that's your reality and what makes you Greek, keep believing it, while you try and identify where your forefathers came from.

the English took from Acropolis what they found. Hopefully you understand why.

I understand why, they found Albanians, Turks, Roma and others at the Acropolis and also found it in ruin, to stop it getting further vandalised they took away important parts, because those living there couldn't or weren't interested in looking after it!

Good. Since you don't mind and you are happy to let me ask you. How does it feel not to have any tangible proof of your roots?

Feels great not to have to rely on a bunch of ruins to know who I am or remind me, I have many of my tangible forefathers who came from the same area, knew who they were and married from similar people and bore more who knew what they were and where they came from... been like this for many hundreds of years, we even know where we came from before that........how's your search going?

[spitfire]

They were citizens of the Turkish Republic before the treaty of 1923. Do you deny this? Or is it just true love.

So, one day they proclaimed them turkish nationals and sent them to greece. No matter what they were called a couple of years ago.
Tell a turk, that he accepted greek nationals home when there was the exchange. Let's see what he answers.

They were greek my friend. Of greek identity.

You proved that your modern Greek claims all the languages since time immemorial. But you didn't prove that the Greeks of Morea (for example) were equally equipped.

You are starting to put words in my mouth. I was clear about this. To everyone speaking greek.
I gave you an example with the arvanites, didn't I?

So am I having this example of greek prior 1850 from you, to see what you are talking about, or what?

[spitfire]

Spitfire
Feels great not to have to rely on a bunch of ruins to know who I am or remind me, I have many of my tangible forefathers who came from the same area, knew who they were and married from similar people and bore more who knew what they were and where they came from... been like this for many hundreds of years, we even know where we came from before that........how's your search going?

A bunch of ruins?
So you don't have any tangible proof. You simply ask your mom, right?

[Amphipolis]

Amphipolis
I say you can't! Prove me wrong pretender!

LOL, And why would Greeks be different from anyone else and not know where their parents or grandparents come from? What on earth do you mean? Everybody’s roots are lost at some point, because they’re (literally) like roots. The deeper you go, they geometrically increase and are lost in memory.

If you’re in an advanced country like USA or Germany you can find documents from 2 or 3 centuries back. In Greece public documents started only after the collapse of Ottoman Empire.

Personally I lose track mostly in the generation of my great-grandparents and the one before it. I know where they lived and had their children or what their job was, but for most of them that’s all I know. In some cases only, there’s info like someone was from another place or there’s an interesting story from the past. That’s circumstantial and personal but I doubt it’s much different for any of you. It’s also because I’m a commoner and none of my ancestors e.g. studied in University. Lastly, a bad thing is when an ancestor dies early and unexpectedly (lots of information and essential continuity is lost).

I once met a very nice guy from a noble family, for him it was totally different. Coming from an important Phanariote of 15th century, he had bunch of documents and information from then to now, at least for this branch of his family. His branch included several important figures like generals, ministers, local leaders, professors etc.

I have also found people who said: “I was lucky because at least my one grandfather had written everything down about his family history, so I have all this info”.

Bottom line: Find the oldest people in your family or close relatives; take them an interview and write 5-10 pages about them. Soon they will die, and most of the things they told you and you think you remember will be lost.

[Philosopher]

Philosopher



No, a belligerent Macedonian, who will not conceed in any way shape or form on his identity or ethnicity.........you on the other hand appear quite happy to be Greek Macedonian or Macedonian Greek....or whatever the f#$k it is you're trying to defend!
When you have an indefensible position, that's when you go looking for support and back up from what other people think...sound familiar?

Makedonche, you need to get a life. You sound like a total retard. How anyone can put up with your absurd comments and statements is beyond me. There are no pure people or pure nation on this planet. You are not a pure Macedonian. There is no such thing. It is morons such as yourself which give Macedonians a bad name.

You need to just shut up.

[spitfire]

Makedonche thinks this is a football match with supporters on each side. Yeah, typical. I can almost see him act like a typical golden dawn member if he was on the other side. No brains whatsoever. Bark, bark, aaaargh, ough!

[Stojacanec]

Spitfire, how many of the 1.4 million turkish/ottoman nationals that made the trek across to new greece walk past the acropolis trying to visualise their past?

Also, I guess the point that I'd like to make is population exchanges of approx 1.4 mil in and 1 mil out in a small geographical area known as aegean macedonia less than 100 years ago is pretty hard to take you guys seriously as having any kind of lineage to the Macedonian region.

You have to admit the proportion of population exchange relative to regional area is pretty damming statistic.

My village is just over the modern greek border and the tomb stones of at least 200 years ago are still there bearing my name.

I don't have to walk past the acropolis to know where my ancestors came from.

[Amphipolis]

There are no pure people or pure nation on this planet. You are not a pure Macedonian.

I don't see why not. I know you can't go back to Stone Age or Alexander the Great but if you're pure as far as you can go back, then you're pure or close to 100% pure.

(I'm not saying you'll get an award for this, but some people may be interested in their pureness)


===

[Amphipolis]

Spitfire, how many of the 1.4 million turkish/ottoman nationals that made the trek across to new greece walk past the acropolis trying to visualise their past?
Also, I guess the point that I'd like to make is population exchanges of approx 1.4 mil in and 1 mil out in a small geographical area known as aegean macedonia less than 100 years ago is pretty hard to take you guys seriously as having any kind of lineage to the Macedonian region.

First, I’ll inform you on the correct numbers. The Muslims/Turks that left Macedonia in two different waves of the Population Exchange (one official and one unofficial that was legally counted in) were 330,000. I’m a little confused on an additional number of 85,000 that left Greece long before and most of them are from Macedonia (Eastern Macedonia in particular).

The people who came to Macedonia were 640,000 and were 52% of the refugees that settled all over Greece.

My village is just over the modern greek border and the tomb stones of at least 200 years ago are still there bearing my name.

That’s great. In the cities the graves are destroyed and replaced within 3 years. What does the tombstone say? Is it in Cyrillic? Tell us more (if you want).

[spitfire]

Spitfire, how many of the 1.4 million turkish/ottoman nationals that made the trek across to new greece walk past the acropolis trying to visualise their past?

Also, I guess the point that I'd like to make is population exchanges of approx 1.4 mil in and 1 mil out in a small geographical area known as aegean macedonia less than 100 years ago is pretty hard to take you guys seriously as having any kind of lineage to the Macedonian region.

You have to admit the proportion of population exchange relative to regional area is pretty damming statistic.

My village is just over the modern greek border and the tomb stones of at least 200 years ago are still there bearing my name.

I don't have to walk past the acropolis to know where my ancestors came from.

As I said earlier. I like to think that macedonian culture was enriched rather than depurified in that area.
Go today to the offsprings of those "turkish nationals" (what a joke) and ask them how "turkish" they feel or their ancestors felt.

I don't have to walk either by the acropolis, but it's there. I can't help it. Along with a couple of more monuments until I reach home on the way back from work.
Not to mention every archaelogical finding in every metro station displayed.
Can't help it, it's everywhere I look. Went to a tavern the other day. A few meters away was Plato's academy. A few thousand years ago there were students interacting in the same language as I speak today.
It's futile. This past is haunting you everywhere you are in Greece.
But what can you do?

[Philosopher]

I don't see why not. I know you can't go back to Stone Age or Alexander the Great but if you're pure as far as you can go back, then you're pure or close to 100% pure.

(I'm not saying you'll get an award for this, but some people may be interested in their pureness)


===

The definition of "pure", especially in this context, cannot be limited to a few generations.

Pure would have to mean 100% of all time -- an impossibility.

One is not 100% pure or close to 100% pure because genealogical records indicate "purity" goes back four generations.

[Philosopher]

Here is some information from censuses:

Post-1850, pre-1913 sources on the ethnic composition of Macedonia—the Ottoman vilayets (provinces) of Salonika, Monastir, and Kosovo—are notoriously unreliable and confusing. Mostly Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian, they reflect those countries’ claims on Macedonia’s Slavic-speaking inhabitants. Nonetheless, all but the Greek sources find the Slavic speakers, the Macedonians, the majority of the population before 1913. On the basis of ‘‘a fairly reliable estimate in 1912,’’ the British Foreign Office cited the following figures, with Slavic-speaking Macedonians by far the largest group and about half of the total: Macedonian Slavs 1,150,000, Turks 400,000, Greeks 300,000, Vlachs 200,000, Albanians 120,000, Jews 100,000, and Gypsies (Roma) 10,000.

All pre-1913, non-Greek statistics find Macedonians the largest single group in Aegean Macedonia. The figures range from 329,371, or 45.3 percent, to 382,084, or 68.9 percent, of non-Turks, and from 339,369, or 31.3 percent, to 370,371, or 35.2 percent, of the total population of approximately 1,052,227 inhabitants.

The numbers are damming.

Because the Bulgarians, Greeks, and Serbs did not recognize Macedonians as a separate ethnic group or nationality, gauging ethnographic structure became virtually impossible after partition. The Bulgarians
continued to claim all Macedonians as Bulgarians. The Greeks and Serbs
moderated their claims; the former claimed only the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia as Greeks, or Slavophone Greeks, and the latter only those of Vardar Macedonia as Serbs, or South Serbs. Consequently, the interwar censuses could not include a Macedonian category but treated Macedonians as Bulgarian, Greek, and Serbian nationals, respectively.

We still have this problem today.

[Amphipolis]

Here is some information from censuses:

No, they're not. Rossos should first give the original data of the censuses and then explain HOW he synthesizes, changes or translates them. But he doesn't even do that.

Here are all the (real) censuses or documented estimations of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#Statistical_data