Republic of Macedonia's EU and NATO Strategies

[Vangelovski]

By whose standards? Yours? You can't decide that I'm afraid.

Yes, by our standards. The Macedonian nation alone decides its identity. Greeks pretending to be Macedonians is just that - pretending.

[spitfire]

Spitfire
Wrong again, by yours and the standards of Greece....not by what she says or claims, it's already been determined for her...thank God! she's so delusional if she fell into a barrel of olives she'd miss and still come sucking her thumb!

I thought I explained my approach and the standards of Greece. Maybe you did not understand them.

Here's what's wrong with the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKMNPQ35OUc

[spitfire]

Yes, by our standards.

Those that speak of pelasgian texts understood in your language. I see.

[Risto the Great]

I'm not sure I understand the first part. What occupation and what proper greek?
One more difference I can think of is how they use personal pronouns.

My relatives in Greece did not speak Greek over 70 years ago. Do you think they would have been taught to speak a dialect of Greek or textbook Greek? I see the logic of them speaking the purest Greek. No dialect to interfere with. Here is a clue for you, we say "ne" and you say "ne". But we mean "no", and you mean "yes".

Occupied Macedonia, you know, northern Greece now.

Actually that 70% refers to the billateral recognition, it is not used erga omnes. But I will not deny that it is probable for someone to understand the state of macedonia instead of the area of macedonia. That's true, but it is not what we discuss.

So you can see how that leads to confusion.

It is precisely what is being discussed. That woman is playing games in the world arena and you "don't deny" the probability of confusion about her identity when she attempts to call herself Macedonian without some kind of Greek qualification. She sounds like a nasty and arrogant piece of work. Probably of the kind that defaces Macedonian cars in Solun.

[spitfire]

My relatives in Greece did not speak Greek over 70 years ago. Do you think they would have been taught to speak a dialect of Greek or textbook Greek? I see the logic of them speaking the purest Greek. No dialect to interfere with. Here is a clue for you, we say "ne" and you say "ne". But we mean "no", and you mean "yes".

Occupied Macedonia, you know, northern Greece now.

Can you say that about everybody in Macedonia 70 years ago? And can you say that about macedonia throughout history? No you can't. You are just seeing this through your googles.

How do the rest of the slavic languages use yes and no? It is well known that yes in greek confuses almost everybody that don't speak greek.
How was yes and no in pelasgian? I'm sure it must have been "ne" according to the theory.

Just like this crap, where you can't stop lauphing by the horrific propaganda claims. Read pezethairos and hold your belly from collapsing out of lauphing.

https://www.facebook.com/ancientmacedonian

All it takes is just a little understanding Risto.

So you can see how that leads to confusion.

It is precisely what is being discussed. That woman is playing games in the world arena and you "don't deny" the probability of confusion about her identity when she attempts to call herself Macedonian without some kind of Greek qualification. She sounds like a nasty and arrogant piece of work. Probably of the kind that defaces Macedonian cars in Solun.

Just by naming a state in a part of a region under the name of that region, does not exclude the inhabitants of the rest of the regions that bare the name from claiming their identity.

[Risto the Great]

It's a pity many people here are trying to speak about something they're not familiar with (Greek language). You obviously don't know how Modern Greek ("demotic" or "katareuousa") differ among themselves or with Bible Greek or Classic Attic or Homeric etc.

You cousins can help you (if you ask them). Don't you ever wonder why we don't hear such arguments by forum members like your cousins, or people who can speak Greek even if this isn't their mother language?

PS: For your information there is no Proto-Indo-European or even Indo-European language. The latter is a modern construction, but I don't know if it is a structured language in the sense that you can learn it and speak it or simply a partial hypothetical vocabulary.



What happened in 1974 was a new codification for Grammar adopted on schools based on demotic language. Katareuousa is a more archaic and formal way of speaking or writing. Today it is mostly met in Church or used by conservative or older people. I’m familiar with it as I grew up among older books that were in various forms of Katareuousa. Christians are also familiar with it because of the Bible or Christian chants.

I don't know what happened in 1850 or what you mean. Nobody understands "all the ancient stuff"; there are many ranges of difficulty depending on the text, you may instantly get as much as 90% or 30%. Irrelevant people like me simply study them for two years in school at the age around 15-17. If one follows studies in literature, law, history, theology etc he will have some more.

==

Can any Greek really help? How many were there back in the 1800's when nobody but only the highest educated could understand the "new" language?

The English language of 1000 years ago barely resembles anything we speak today. If there was an equivalent to the Katharevousa exercise in English, we would have had old words re-introduced over 150 years ago and today's English speakers would argue about how they can understand all texts from way back whenever.

Katharevousa (Greek: Καθαρεύουσα, [kaθaˈrevusa], lit. "puristic [language]"), is a form of the Modern Greek language conceived in the early 19th century as a compromise between Ancient Greek and the Demotic Greek of the time.

So, if the Demotic Greek of the time was the only language used (and no archaic words were introduced), I expect 150 years later, you would have had a very different modern Greek language now and it would have nowhere near as many ancient words in it. But Greeks like to claim a lot of things, no matter how contrived.

I am happy to help you though.

[spitfire]

Can any Greek really help? How many were there back in the 1800's when nobody but only the highest educated could understand the "new" language?

The English language of 1000 years ago barely resembles anything we speak today. If there was an equivalent to the Katharevousa exercise in English, we would have had old words re-introduced over 150 years ago and today's English speakers would argue about how they can understand all texts from way back whenever.



So, if the Demotic Greek of the time was the only language used (and no archaic words were introduced), I expect 150 years later, you would have had a very different modern Greek language now and it would have nowhere near as many ancient words in it. But Greeks like to claim a lot of things, no matter how contrived.

I am happy to help you though.

You are clearly showing that you don't understand much about greek.

Just because english do not resemble anything today compared to english 1000 years ago, that does not mean that it applies in greek also.

Otherwise I wouldn't be able to understand Homer, the Bible and medeaval greek. Or Katharevousa.
Well guess what. I can.
Bring any greek text from any era.

[Risto the Great]

Can you say that about everybody in Macedonia 70 years ago? And can you say that about macedonia throughout history? No you can't. You are just seeing this through your googles.

I can only say that about the Macedonians. There were also Grci, Evrejci, Turci and Arnauti as well.

How do the rest of the slavic languages use yes and no? It is well known that yes in greek confuses almost everybody that don't speak greek.
How was yes and no in pelasgian? I'm sure it must have been "ne" according to the theory.

Don't paint me with that Pelasgian brush please. My point was Macedonians who were forced to speak Greek definitely knew they were speaking a completely different language. They learnt it properly. It was not a dialect that had developed over hundreds of years. No need to deny this. You can thank me for teaching you this if you want.

Just by naming a state in a part of a region under the name of that region, does not exclude the inhabitants of the rest of the regions that bare the name from claiming their identity.

If I go the EU parliament and describe myself as a Greek (because my family comes from what is now Greece) and then proceed to speak Macedonian to everyone and push a Macedonian agenda in the EU Parliament, I will be regarded as a loony UNLESS I describe myself as an ethnic Macedonian from Greece. But she can call herself Macedonian and refuses any qualifiers. Sure, no worries.

[makedonche]

I thought I explained my approach and the standards of Greece. Maybe you did not understand them.

Here's what's wrong with the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKMNPQ35OUc

Spitfire
My platesmashing friend in denial, it is your explanation that proves she is Greek and not Macedonian, therefore she doesn't have to worry about which Macedonia she comes from, it's simple she comes from the country called Greece, she represents Greece and pertains to be Greek, she's a Greek citizen with a Greek passport........how the fu*# can she possibly be anything else?

[spitfire]

I can only say that about the Macedonians. There were also Grci, Evrejci, Turci and Arnauti as well.

So in fact there was a greek element in macedonia 70 years ago. And in fact, you say that macedonia had many cultures. Well, isn't that what I said also?

Don't paint me with that Pelasgian brush please. My point was Macedonians who were forced to speak Greek definitely knew they were speaking a completely different language. They learnt it properly. It was not a dialect that had developed over hundreds of years. No need to deny this. You can thank me for teaching you this if you want.

So you are saying that there were no greek speaking macedonians at the time?

If I go the EU parliament and describe myself as a Greek (because my family comes from what is now Greece) and then proceed to speak Macedonian to everyone and push a Macedonian agenda in the EU Parliament, I will be regarded as a loony UNLESS I describe myself as an ethnic Macedonian from Greece. But she can call herself Macedonian and refuses any qualifiers. Sure, no worries.

I don't know if you will be heard unless you speak in a language translated by the E.U. parliament.
You 'd probably be interrupted by the president in order to use terminology about the macedonian state that is accepted inside the parliament (Fyrom etc.).
If you describe yourself as a greek, you will be given a translator that speaks greek.

[spitfire]

Spitfire
My platesmashing friend in denial, it is your explanation that proves she is Greek and not Macedonian, therefore she doesn't have to worry about which Macedonia she comes from, it's simple she comes from the country called Greece, she represents Greece and pertains to be Greek, she's a Greek citizen with a Greek passport........how the fu*# can she possibly be anything else?

What's wrong with platesmashing? They aren't real plates anyway. And in fact it was macedonians of greece that provided the alternative of paper napkins throwing.

You forgot to mention her identity my delusional friend. She has a macedonian identity. This means culture, etc.

[Risto the Great]

You are clearly showing that you don't understand much about greek.

Just because english do not resemble anything today compared to english 1000 years ago, that does not mean that it applies in greek also.

Otherwise I wouldn't be able to understand Homer, the Bible and medeaval greek. Or Katharevousa.
Well guess what. I can.
Bring any greek text from any era.

You are not making sense. I am saying your knowledge of the archaic words comes from the katharavousa process. You should thank those French inspired visionaries.

Guess what, you will have to show me the Romaic vernacular of the 16/18th century. Then compare it to the words introduced into your language thereafter as a consequence of the "catharsis". Then I will see where you gained your understanding of all these words from.

Don't you get it? If you didn't have that process of "purification" (= introduction of archaic words and synthesis), you wouldn't even know the words to begin with.

What seems perfectly natural to you now was not the case 150 years ago when nobody understood the archaic words.

Anyway, did you see the 16th century Macedonian words from Kostur region? No katharevousa here my friend. And perfectly understandable to Macedonians.

[spitfire]

You are not making sense. I am saying your knowledge of the archaic words comes from the katharavousa process. You should thank those French inspired visionaries.

Guess what, you will have to show me the Romaic vernacular of the 16/18th century. Then compare it to the words introduced into your language thereafter as a consequence of the "catharsis". Then I will see where you gained your understanding of all these words from.

Don't you get it? If you didn't have that process of "purification" (= introduction of archaic words and synthesis), you wouldn't even know the words to begin with.

What seems perfectly natural to you now was not the case 150 years ago when nobody understood the archaic words.

Anyway, did you see the 16th century Macedonian words from Kostur region? No katharevousa here my friend. And perfectly understandable to Macedonians.

What catharsis was made with Katharevousa my friend? What was left of Katharevousa in the demotic language? What did it introduced exactly, do you know? Syntax and Grammar re-introduced? hahahaha.... yeah and a few words that didn't stand up to the task.
Start with that.
And you want me not to paint you with any brush? You haven't the foggiest idea of what you are talking about and you want me to bring you a text?
Bring any greek text you want.

Do you want me to show you a text from the last emperor of Constantinople? It's the same as today, maybe one or two words not immediately identifiable, but the rest 500 or so are.

Do you even have 500 words of your language from that era? Don't think so. Do you even have 500 words from any old era that you can claim as your own? Still don't think so.
Compare that to a whole language with thousands of words that is the same today, as it was thousands of years ago, and throughout history like the greek language.

[Redsun]

Spitfire - What is it you don't understand? Her citizenship is Greek, her nationality is greek and she is macedonian. What's so hard to figure out?


How many times are you going to avoid this Spitfire?

Can you please explain, why you believe she is "Macedonian." Remember post# 174

Spitfire post# 174 According to the law you have greek nationality if one of your parents is greek.


Do you agree with your law? Neither of her parents are Macedonian. You said she has claim to be Macedonian, what claim does she have?

She is not a Macedonian


Spitfire post# 239 By whose standards? Yours? You can't decide that I'm afraid.


Who are you to decide that she is Macedonian?

[makedonche]

What's wrong with platesmashing? They aren't real plates anyway. And in fact it was macedonians of greece that provided the alternative of paper napkins throwing.

You forgot to mention her identity my delusional friend. She has a macedonian identity. This means culture, etc.

Spitfire
Nothing wrong with smashing plates at all! But can you please stop with the attempts at humour, you know what I mean...that Macedonian identity thing, just because she may have learnt some "culture" doesn't make her Macedonian!