Greece or Bulgaria threats to Macedonian Nation

[Yunanistan]

Definitions:

The "Macedonian State" is the legal entity that is legally recognized by other legal states. example: a legal state such as Canada recognizes the legal state of the Republic of Macedonian. "Nationality" is legal membership to the the state regardless of ethnicity.

The "Macedonian Nation" are the people that identify as Macedonians both inside the Republic of Macedonia (The legal state) and those outside it's borders. "Ethnicity" is identification with the nation regardless of the legally citizenship expressed as one's "Nationality".

Officially the Republic of Macedonia is a multi-ethnic state and unofficially it is moving toward a bi-national state. One of those nations are the Macedonians and this thread is posted to discuss the greater of the two external threats to the Macedonian Nation, between that of Greece and that of Bulgaria.


The demands made by Greece:

Geographic qualifier to: state name, Nationality - Greece does not consider the Macedonia Nation in any way related to the Hellenic Nation and see it as it would define itself under a mutually acceptable name.


The Demands made by Bulgaria:

Has recognized the Macedonian State as the Republic of Macedonia, does not recognize the Macedonian Nation nor doe s it recognize the Macedonian Language as a separate language. Has issue with historical figures defined as "Macedonian"



This is the way I see the dispute and I would like to hear from your members on which is seen as the greater threat and why? I'm not asking you to say you will change anything, I'm interested on how you see each threat to the Macedonian Nation.


Please no comments like Greece and Bulgaria should go F&&& themselves, I already know that you think that.

[Gocka]

My Greek friend first please change your name from Yunanistan to Greece, or what ever else is dear to you. There is no need to intentionaly degrade yourself because you think it may appease us in some way so that we are more forgiving. Greece nor you being Greek does not offend us, it is the notion that we as a people are not conscious of or confused about who we really are. I respect your right to be Greek even though I don't believe Greeks exist, I respect your right to identify with a culture that existed on your land in a distant past. These are basic human rights that I can not deny you. Nor do I want to deny you a basic dignity to feel that you can be who you want to be with out shame. All I want is the same in return. Respect the fact that I feel and identify as Macedonian. Respect the fact that I want to call my sovereign nation what I feel it should be called.

In all honesty from a Macedonian perspective, neither Greece, nor Bulgaria pose a real threat to the Macedonian nation or the Macedonian ethnicity. The Greek and Bulgarian states and ethnic groups are more fearful of us then we are of them, Both of those states have active propaganda against us not the other way around.

For example what does Macedonia or Macedonians have to fear from either Greece or Bulgaria? Greece does not recognize our ethnicity as Macedonian, and attributes Macedonian as part of a Greek ethnicity and the Greek state, so what? As a Macedonian why should I care or be worried about a single country of 10 million not recognizing me when 90% of the world already does? I know who and what I am and that's all that matters. Militarily the likelihood of Greece attacking Macedonia is slim too none, but for some reason Greece thinks that the opposite (Macedonia attacking Greece) is a real threat to them. which by the way is laughable and again shows that you fear us more then we fear you. Our identity has survived much harsher times and is becoming stronger and stronger, so what threat does Greece pose to that? All Greece can do is block us from the EU and NATO, which some might think is a big deal but I say good, you are doing us a favor by keeping us out of a sinking ship and even if it does stay a float the EU will not tolerate the Greek stance for ever. So From all those perspectives we are not threatened by Greece what so ever. Greece on the other hand is very afraid of Macedonians. Greece did some very bad things to a lot of ethnic Macedonians, expulsion, torture, ethnic cleansing, genocide and most of the confiscated lands where never returned. This is what Greece fears most, hundreds of thousands of Macedonians now living in Canada and Australia making legal claims on illegally confiscated land. So they try and play the name game in hopes we will just go away. There is also something even bigger that Greece fears, the reality that the majority of Greece is a mish mash of various ethnicities and races from all parts of the region. According to Greece there are no minorities in Greece, so admitting that there is one (Macedonians) means they must admit to them all, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks, etc. The fabric of your national consciousness is very loosely woven, thus pulling one string can cause it all to unravel. So my friend maybe the real question you should be asking is why Greece see us as such a big threat and why they are willing to throw so many resources at us for so long?

Then there is Bulgaria, I have to laugh, just uttering the word Bulgaria makes me laugh. They much like Greece are on the verge of collapse except the EU is not running to aid them. Its not reported much but there have been regular protests there for over a year now, many of them violent, against the very corrupt establishment there. What threat does Bulgaria pose? So they try and claim our revolutionaries as "Bulgarians" so that they can try and claim that we are in fact Bulgarians. They have been claiming this for 200 years and for 200 years we keep rejecting them, why would we accept them now? They have even less credibility and influence than Greece. They expect us to believe we are Bulgars, when in fact the Bulgar tribe from which they claim they originate was a Mongol/Asiatic people. They want us to adhere to an ethnicity that they can not even adhere to properly. Half of Bulgaria is populated by Roma, Turks, and Romanians, and most of what's left are conscious Macedonians, and Bulgarized Macedonians. They are a basket case of a country, the most corrupt in Europe, and even the Bulgarian ethnicity is dying out.

Again they fear us more then we fear them.

What you maybe fail to realize is that as people we have already lost so much. Half of our native land was annexed, along with it half of our people, most of which have suffered all sorts of brutality and discrimination. We survived Ottoman enslavement and remained Macedonian and Christian. We survived Greek and Bulgarian ethnic cleansing and remained Macedonian, We survived the world wars, Balkans wars, and Yugoslavia and still remain Macedonian. What can Greece or Bulgaria possibly do to us at this stage that would be worse or even compare to anything we have been through as a people? The reality is that this is a cake walk in comparison to our last 500 years.

You can never completely bury the truth, its always only a matter of time before it raises it persistent head and bites you in the ass.

We are our only real threat. Only we can can cause harm to ourselves everything Greece and Bulgaria do and say is nothing more than hot air.

Definitions:

The "Macedonian State" is the legal entity that is legally recognized by other legal states. example: a legal state such as Canada recognizes the legal state of the Republic of Macedonian. "Nationality" is legal membership to the the state regardless of ethnicity.

The "Macedonian Nation" are the people that identify as Macedonians both inside the Republic of Macedonia (The legal state) and those outside it's borders. "Ethnicity" is identification with the nation regardless of the legally citizenship expressed as one's "Nationality".

Officially the Republic of Macedonia is a multi-ethnic state and unofficially it is moving toward a bi-national state. One of those nations are the Macedonians and this thread is posted to discuss the greater of the two external threats to the Macedonian Nation, between that of Greece and that of Bulgaria.


The demands made by Greece:

Geographic qualifier to: state name, Nationality - Greece does not consider the Macedonia Nation in any way related to the Hellenic Nation and see it as it would define itself under a mutually acceptable name.


The Demands made by Bulgaria:

Has recognized the Macedonian State as the Republic of Macedonia, does not recognize the Macedonian Nation nor doe s it recognize the Macedonian Language as a separate language. Has issue with historical figures defined as "Macedonian"



This is the way I see the dispute and I would like to hear from your members on which is seen as the greater threat and why? I'm not asking you to say you will change anything, I'm interested on how you see each threat to the Macedonian Nation.


Please no comments like Greece and Bulgaria should go F&&& themselves, I already know that you think that.

[George S.]

Greece is supposed to be the cradle of democracy.Think about it the way it behaves to Macedonia its no democratic means.Greece is out to destroy whatever is Macedonian.Also it wants a monopoly on anything Macedonian.THe only way is to cry foul at the un or eu or nato.Preventing Macedonia's to join up with these.

[Yunanistan]

My Greek friend first please change your name from Yunanistan to Greece, or what ever else is dear to you. There is no need to intentionaly degrade yourself because you think it may appease us in some way so that we are more forgiving. Greece nor you being Greek does not offend us, it is the notion that we as a people are not conscious of or confused about who we really are. I respect your right to be Greek even though I don't believe Greeks exist, I respect your right to identify with a culture that existed on your land in a distant past. These are basic human rights that I can not deny you. Nor do I want to deny you a basic dignity to feel that you can be who you want to be with out shame. All I want is the same in return. Respect the fact that I feel and identify as Macedonian. Respect the fact that I want to call my sovereign nation what I feel it should be called.

Why "Yunanistan" Click here

In all honesty from a Macedonian perspective, neither Greece, nor Bulgaria pose a real threat to the Macedonian nation or the Macedonian ethnicity. The Greek and Bulgarian states and ethnic groups are more fearful of us then we are of them, Both of those states have active propaganda against us not the other way around.
...
You can never completely bury the truth, its always only a matter of time before it raises it persistent head and bites you in the ass.

We are our only real threat. Only we can can cause harm to ourselves everything Greece and Bulgaria do and say is nothing more than hot air.

Gocka my time here is limited. I can't spend too much of me effort hunting for a conversation on a topic that is to me one of the most fascinating post communist area cultural issues that has implications to five Balkan countries.

Your response, though I appreciate the effort, was filled with nothing but denial, denial and more denial. While your nation and state is being threatened from within, by the Albanians, externally from Greece and Bulgaria you insist on building some fiction on a perceived threat that Greece and Bulgaria are fearful of.

There was a window of opportunity when Bulgaria was not a factor in this equation and Greece was willing to compromise, but that is gone. Your politicians have it correct as much as the Greek politicians deny it, the Greeks will keep RoM waiting at the door until all other Balkan countries enter the EU and/or NATO. As RoM politician were running around the world establishing direct relations with 120+ countries as the "Republic of Macedonia" giving lip service to real negotiations, now Greece is faking it.

Forgetting Greece, your country is facing a Bulgaria that is challenging your Nations identity, Language and history and they understand your language to the point that translators are not allowed when your politicians visit Bulgaria. They have recognized your state as the "Republic of Macedonia" and they have done this because the state name is secondary to the protection of the ethnicity. The bi-national nature of The Republic of Macedonia means that your partners, the Albanians, have a say in the country's future and I'm sure you do not like that, but is the truth.

This is one other way that Bulgaria threatens the Macedonia Nation, which is something Greece will not do. The number of Bulgarian passports that Macedonians currently have is estimated to be 10% of the Macedonian population. Though it may be for financial reasons, it still creates a stakeholder in RoM who will have consideration to Bulgaria in any laws the government makes which are seen as a threat to Bulgaria. It's like having a company stock holding, you become motivated to that company's interests.

For a balanced view here are two views on Bulgarian passports by your fellow Macedonians.


MINA
Bulgarian citizen: Should my wife become Macedonian to get Bulgarian Passport?
Saturday, 09 February 2013
Macedonians in Bulgaria don't speak Bulgarian, they don't pay taxes here, but when it comes to obtaining our citizenship, they do it in record time, within a year - says Stefan Rusenov whose wife is from the Ukraine and is unable to obtain Bulgarian citizenship for years. According to Bulgarian laws, she would need to give up her Ukrainian passport to become citizen of Bulgaria.

Bulgarian Passports for Macedonians: Debunking Myths
February 4, 2010, Thursday
“Those who say the procedure is “ridiculously easy” are people who just observe the process and are not a part of it. I applied for Bulgarian citizenship in 2006 and my application is still somewhere among the different institutions that deal with the issue,” Petar explains.



Thanks to everyone for the conversations I have had. If I see a reasoned argument on these topic I'll jump in, but I'm doing too much of the heavy lifting here, and of what I've seen with the other topics I just don't belong. Take care.

[Gocka]

So then because I don't agree with your assertion that Greece and Bulgaria
pose real threats to the Macedonian state and people, that must mean that I
am in denial? Perhaps you are over estimating what Greece and Bulgaria are
actually capable of particularly Bulgaria. All either of them can do is
talk. Why should Macedonians perceive empty rhetoric as a real and
dangerous threat? Both Greece and Bulgaria have been harping on about the
same thing for a 100 years yet here we are. If they were so capable of
inflicting harm with their propaganda then we would be here today wasting
time explaining to you why they are both all bark and no bite. You also
seem to assume that Greece can keep us waiting at the door indefinitely,
which is also a stretch, and again even if they do keep us at the door of
the EU, who really cares? Everyone and their brother is thinking about
exiting the EU. Even if Macedonia were to add a geographic qualifier like
Greece wants, what then? Are we just going to disappear as an ethnic group?
Neither Bulgaria nor Greece are even capable of feeding their own
population anymore, and even their propaganda against us is loosing
traction among their own populace. What are they going to do to us? The
Bulgarians can claim that we are Bulgarian until the cows come home, what
will that actually do? Greece doesn't even control its own future anymore,
your basket case of a country will be in debt for the Germans for the next
2000 years and I am supposed to fear you?

Get real, and please stop wasting our time. You came here groveling
pretending that you had some honest intention to discuss something, when
your only intention is to try and tease out the answers that you want to
hear. No matter what we say you will never admit that this is how we really
feel, you will just say that we are in denial, and are intentionally giving
answers contrary to what you think is right.

[Soldier of Macedon]

While your nation and state is being threatened from within, by the Albanians, externally from Greece and Bulgaria you insist on building some fiction on a perceived threat that Greece and Bulgaria are fearful of.

That is no fiction on our part. Both Greece and Bulgaria do feel threatened by our existence otherwise they would have officially recognised the Macedonians in their own countries and supported them in their attempts to freely practice their culture like normal countries do. As much as I disagree with ethnic Albanian politics in Macedonia, I still expect Macedonia to support them and other minorities where it concerns human rights.

The number of Bulgarian passports that Macedonians currently have is estimated to be 10% of the Macedonian population. Though it may be for financial reasons..............

In 99% of cases, it is only for financial reasons. I was in Macedonia last year and met a number of people who had obtained Bulgarian passports. While I personally don't agree with it, I was never left with the impression that these guys did it for any other reason aside from money. Most of them go there (or use it as a stepping stone to get to other European countries) for a few months at a time to earn some extra money and then return to Macedonia. They all still identify as Macedonians and any perceived inclination towards Bulgaria is limited to financial benefit.

.........it still creates a stakeholder in RoM who will have consideration to Bulgaria in any laws the government makes which are seen as a threat to Bulgaria. It's like having a company stock holding, you become motivated to that company's interests.

Actually, it creates a Macedonian stakeholder in Bulgaria, because they will have the same rights as other citizens of Bulgaria but their national allegiance will still be to Macedonia. While Bulgaria is naively hoping to manufacture plastic Bulgarians from these economic migrants, it's actually allowing a Trojan Horse into their state.

This is the way I see the dispute and I would like to hear from your members on which is seen as the greater threat and why?

I don't see either as a threat to the existence of Macedonians. They're just a hindrance to progress in certain matters. By the way, keep it consistent. If you're going to abbreviate Macedonia as RoM, then do the same for Greece (HR) and Bulgaria (RoB). I am getting tired of your subliminal attempts to denationalise Macedonians with these petty cheap shots. If you want to be taken seriously, then act accordingly.