Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Soldier of Macedon]

The ongoing protests and demonstrations in Ukraine which have resulted in civil unrest were commenced by pro-EU citizens. There is an explosive mix of violent protesters and heavy-handed security forces. Given the pro-EU west / pro-Russia east situation, there are some who fear that the country may be partitioned, divided along ideological lines, as the population is roughly split about 50 / 50 for each side. Personally, I support the right of Ukrainians to self-determination and their right to separate from Russia, but I definitely don't support the EU. If they're pinning their hopes on the EU saving them, then it would appear that they're lacking foresight, at least if some other eastern European countries are anything to go by as an example. Perhaps the demonstrators are behaving this way because they feel more anti-Russian than pro-EU? I don't know. But the fact that there are extremists and fascists among the demonstrators doesn't do their cause much good:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ukraine-right-revives-wartime-symbols-amid-revolution-1.1642760

As Ukraine’s opposition movement vows to continue its “revolution” with more protests and a general strike, an ultra- nationalist party is playing a leading role and former symbols of the far-right fringe are moving into the political mainstream.

http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far-right-protesters-ukraine-23012014

When US Senator John McCain dined with Ukraine's opposition leaders in December, he shared a table and later a stage with the leader of the extreme far-right Svoboda party Oleh Tyahnybok. This is Oleh Tyahnybok, he has claimed a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" rule Ukraine and that "Germans, Kikes and other scum" want to "take away our Ukrainian state."

[Momce Makedonce]

The ongoing protests and demonstrations in Ukraine which have resulted in civil unrest were commenced by pro-EU citizens. There is an explosive mix of violent protesters and heavy-handed security forces. Given the pro-EU west / pro-Russia east situation, there are some who fear that the country may be partitioned, divided along ideological lines, as the population is roughly split about 50 / 50 for each side. Personally, I support the right of Ukrainians to self-determination and their right to separate from Russia, but I definitely don't support the EU. If they're pinning their hopes on the EU saving them, then it would appear that they're lacking foresight, at least if some other eastern European countries are anything to go by as an example. Perhaps the demonstrators are behaving this way because they feel more anti-Russian than pro-EU? I don't know. But the fact that there are extremists and fascists among the demonstrators doesn't do their cause much good:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/ukraine-right-revives-wartime-symbols-amid-revolution-1.1642760

http://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far...raine-23012014

Did not know much about this when I first saw it. However at first it was good to see the Ukrainians fighting for self determination and distance from Russia. I thought it was something the Macedonians could look at and perhaps gain some sort of inspiration from...

However now it is just chaos. Violence,destroying buildings and starting fires is not the right way to protest.It will never get you anywhere and just result in more bitterness and resentment.

Sticky situation to be in considering the views of the population are split 50-50. I do have respect for Ukraine I heard they assisted Macedonia in the 2001 War with the Albanians if I am not mistaken?

[Sweet Sixteen]

Personally, I support the right of Ukrainians to self-determination and their right to separate from Russia, but I definitely don't support the EU. If they're pinning their hopes on the EU saving them, then it would appear that they're lacking foresight, at least if some other eastern European countries are anything to go by as an example.

Ukraine's economical situation is not comparable to the former socialist countries of EU. The average wealth in Ukraine is less than half of Bulgaria's (the poorest of these countries) and almost 1/6th of Slovenia's.

Ukraine is basically at the level of Albania.

[Risto the Great]

Arguably similar to Macedonia. Give up the age old slavemaster or embrace the lure/appeal of the new Euro union. I think some solid leadership and diplomacy is needed.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Countries in western Europe like the UK and France complain about the influx of people from EU countries in eastern Europe like Bulgaria and Romania. The population of Ukraine is much larger than either. I would question the sincerity of the EU and its willingness to absorb such a large area and population, as I would question their sincerity on a number of other matters. But at the moment, western diplomats are tripping over their own feet in their haste to capitalise on the situation. In some ways it resembles what has happened in some Arab-speaking countries in the last few years.

I do have respect for Ukraine I heard they assisted Macedonia in the 2001 War with the Albanians if I am not mistaken?

I believe so.

[Gocka]

Ukraine actually saved Macedonia from very dire circumstances. The gave Macedonia helicopters and a few tanks, if it wasn't for the helicopters the US backed terrorists would have attacked Skopje eventually. Our army had nothing and was struggling to fight off the terrorists who were heavily armed and had very sophisticated night vision gear.

As for the situation in Ukraine, its a mess. Its a situation where you have 2 sides both on completely different sides of the political spectrum, both with completely different views about what the countries future should be and there cant be a compromise, you can't be in the EU and not in the EU at the same time, what each side wants is in direct conflict with the other.

It eventually gets to a point (it already has) where both sides view each other as detrimental to the others future and prosperity. So what do you do? Most likely the country will split since neither side has a majority. Then there will be a war about who get what part and how much.

I foresee a grim future for Ukrainians which is sad because it is such a poor country, its always been controlled by Russia, it was decimated in WW2, they just have had nothing go there way in the last 100 years.

[Vangelovski]

Its interesting to note that ethnic Russians make up about 18 per cent of the population (8.1 million) - they mostly live in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I think these people make up the bulk of the "pro-Russian" faction.

SoM - I wouldn't take the media's word as to the supposed participation of the "ultra-nationalists". They were calling DPMNE supporters the same. I remember some stating the use of 'far right/nationalist symbols' in relation to the sonce! They'll use that term for anyone that even remotely shows support for their own country.

[Soldier of Macedon]

SoM - I wouldn't take the media's word as to the supposed participation of the "ultra-nationalists". They were calling DPMNE supporters the same. I remember some stating the use of 'far right/nationalist symbols' in relation to the sonce! They'll use that term for anyone that even remotely shows support for their own country.

I know what you mean, but these guys are actually using fascist symbols. Check the pictures in the link.

Its interesting to note that ethnic Russians make up about 18 per cent of the population (8.1 million) - they mostly live in the Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. I think these people make up the bulk of the "pro-Russian" faction.

There are also many ethnic Ukrainians who are opposed to the EU and lean more towards Russia. That doesn't mean they seek union with the latter, just that they don't see much benefit in joining the EU and would rather foster closer economic ties with Russia and others in their region.

[Vangelovski]

I know what you mean, but these guys are actually using fascist symbols. Check the pictures in the link.

I read up some more on them. I wouldn't necessarily call them fascists. They have some racist policies which are counter-balanced by some very liberal minority group policies. They also seem to be confused about the type of economic system they support, claiming to be anti-communist but proposing some of the worst of the Soviet system as part of their party policy. I would say that overall their policies seem to be Ukrainians first, but I'd say that they are more confused than anything else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29

[Momce Makedonce]

Ukraine actually saved Macedonia from very dire circumstances. The gave Macedonia helicopters and a few tanks, if it wasn't for the helicopters the US backed terrorists would have attacked Skopje eventually. Our army had nothing and was struggling to fight off the terrorists who were heavily armed and had very sophisticated night vision gear.

As for the situation in Ukraine, its a mess. Its a situation where you have 2 sides both on completely different sides of the political spectrum, both with completely different views about what the countries future should be and there cant be a compromise, you can't be in the EU and not in the EU at the same time, what each side wants is in direct conflict with the other.

It eventually gets to a point (it already has) where both sides view each other as detrimental to the others future and prosperity. So what do you do? Most likely the country will split since neither side has a majority. Then there will be a war about who get what part and how much.

I foresee a grim future for Ukrainians which is sad because it is such a poor country, its always been controlled by Russia, it was decimated in WW2, they just have had nothing go there way in the last 100 years.

Russia comes across as being the same as Serbia in the way that it wants as much control and influence over the other countries in their region. No doubt this Russian stance was copied by the Serbs.

I think a split would be the best option in regard to attempting to keep the peace. However there are positives and negatives for this and like you say it can end in more disputes.

[George S.]

the last thing on the russia'smind is to let states breakaway.What signal will it send to the others.Without the states Russia is only like Moscow.Let me know but the ukrain has gas & someone said it is the breadbasket of Russia.You got other states like Chechnya & others wanting to break free very soon there won't be any Russia left.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I wouldn't necessarily call them fascists.

Perhaps not all of them, but the comments of their leader and the white power and swastika-like symbols used by some of their supporters is something they can do without.

They have some racist policies which are counter-balanced by some very liberal minority group policies.

That's more of an oxymoron than a counter-balance. Patriotism is no excuse and doesn't cancel out the racist tendencies held by some of their members. They should rid themselves of that element.

[George S.]

Lo?ok at the way ultranationalism gets to form at the same time all these symbols & things pop up from time to time suggesting racism.Think about it is it patriotism & defending one's country or is it some derogary description of a person wh has to be put on a black list & hunted down like an abimal.Who the hell decides what people are ultranationals,patriots etc etc or racists????Is it the media or who.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I didn't realise the division was so intense. There's a guy at my work who's from the Ukraine and has no issue being called Russian, however he may be a member of the Russian minority mentioned above.

Russia's lengthy presence and strict assimilation policy against the Ukraine would've had a considerable impact on the population. On the other hand, it would not surprise me if there's a 'cool' factor involved, akin to Macedonians adopting Serbian music, culture, words simply because of an ill conceived perception that it's 'trendy.' Either way, Macedonians can directly relate.

[Vangelovski]

That's more of an oxymoron than a counter-balance. Patriotism is no excuse and doesn't cancel out the racist tendencies held by some of their members. They should rid themselves of that element.

Counter-balance was a bad term - contradiction is what I was looking for..but I agree, there seem to be some extremes in their party platform there.