Russia, Ukraine and the West

[Gocka]

21 people died in Ukraine on Tuesday. From what the news is reporting the deaths were caused when police raided a protesters camp in Kiev. 7 of the dead were police officers.

I would have expected that there would be more violence between rival factions protesters but it seems like the violence is happening exclusively between the government and anti government protesters. It makes you wonder if its really true that the country is split between Russia and the EU or if this thing is mostly an anti government movement.

[Gocka]

84 people died recently in Ukraine and the President has ran away and go into hiding and it is presumed he is being protected by Russia.

It is also being suggested that Russia is poised to annex the regions of Ukraine that predominantly identify as ethnic Russians. This thing is unfolding just like I said it would, and it all happening so fast. There are speculations that Russia may make a move in the next week or two.

I hope this doesn't get uglier, Ukrainians have struggled so much since WW2

[Risto the Great]

I don't like that kind of hate infused journalism here.

[Vangelovski]

Sorry Lavce, I agree with the others - this article's way over the top in the racism department.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10666893/Ukraine-crisis-live-President-Barack-Obama-warns-of-costs-for-any-violation-of-Ukraine.html

Looks like either Russia or Russian elements within Ukraine may be making some military moves.

[Big Bad Sven]

i think the USA/West are pissed off their plans didnt work in Syria, so they increased the pressure and are hitting russia were it hurts the most - Ukraine.

Its hard to really know the truth in these situations as both sides are cranking up the propaganda machine.

What i do know is that Russia wont Ukraine go or allow for a proxy to be next door to them, especially one so large and important. Dont want to be a scare monger but this could get ugly and start something big.

[Vangelovski]

i think the USA/West are pissed off their plans didnt work in Syria, so they increased the pressure and are hitting russia were it hurts the most - Ukraine.

Its hard to really know the truth in these situations as both sides are cranking up the propaganda machine.

What i do know is that Russia wont Ukraine go or allow for a proxy to be next door to them, especially one so large and important. Dont want to be a scare monger but this could get ugly and start something big.

Come on BBS. Have you ever considered that individual Ukrainians, like most people, aren't sheep and have their own interests? That just because they are divided over some key issues (which is really a matter of identity politics more than anything else) it does not mean that both or either sides are having their strings pulled in some sort of puppeteer show with Moscow on one side and Washington on the other?

Have you considered the possibility that individual Ukrainians can think and act for themselves, are capable of organising their own movements to protect their own interests and aren't necessary being led by the nose by their leaders, who in turn are being paid or brainwashed by "global conspiratorial players"?

If you can think and act for yourself, why do you assume that everyone else is having their strings pulled? Not everything is the result of the Americans, Russians or Jews controlling every action and reaction for their own purposes in some sort of master grand strategic battle over world domination.

[Phoenix]

Come on BBS. Have you ever considered that individual Ukrainians, like most people, aren't sheep and have their own interests? That just because they are divided over some key issues (which is really a matter of identity politics more than anything else) it does not mean that both or either sides are having their strings pulled in some sort of puppeteer show with Moscow on one side and Washington on the other?

Have you considered the possibility that individual Ukrainians can think and act for themselves, are capable of organising their own movements to protect their own interests and aren't necessary being led by the nose by their leaders, who in turn are being paid or brainwashed by "global conspiratorial players"?

If you can think and act for yourself, why do you assume that everyone else is having their strings pulled? Not everything is the result of the Americans, Russians or Jews controlling every action and reaction for their own purposes in some sort of master grand strategic battle over world domination.

There's definitely people acting independently, whether they be pro-Russian/East or pro-Europe/West. There's also every probability that both those groups are being supported by Russia and the US respectively. At stake is a much bigger plan centred on containing Russian influence, whilst building a larger US friendly coalition of nations for whatever uncertainty the future will bring.

America would dearly love to see the Ukraine divided in two, they dipped their toes into Georgia several years ago but were outwitted by the Russians, this is merely the Americans having another go.

[Big Bad Sven]

Come on BBS. Have you ever considered that individual Ukrainians, like most people, aren't sheep and have their own interests? That just because they are divided over some key issues (which is really a matter of identity politics more than anything else) it does not mean that both or either sides are having their strings pulled in some sort of puppeteer show with Moscow on one side and Washington on the other?

Have you considered the possibility that individual Ukrainians can think and act for themselves, are capable of organising their own movements to protect their own interests and aren't necessary being led by the nose by their leaders, who in turn are being paid or brainwashed by "global conspiratorial players"?

If you can think and act for yourself, why do you assume that everyone else is having their strings pulled? Not everything is the result of the Americans, Russians or Jews controlling every action and reaction for their own purposes in some sort of master grand strategic battle over world domination.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. There are people in Ukaine that want to be free from the Russian sphere, and there are Ukrainians that want to be in the russian sphere of influence. How they solve it i have no idea.

But i can tell you this, the western ukrainians are getting support from a 'outside source' and it wouldnt surprise me if they got the 'green light' from this 'outside source' to start protesting at a certain time. And both the West and Russia are going to play dirty to make sure there side wins.

The cold truth about the world is that USA and the EU dont give a damn about the ukrainians or Ukraine, they just to cut off rusian influence in ukraine and also its Gas monopoly. The same can be said for the Russians, they dont give a damn about the Ukraine or its people they just want control.

All the small countries in the world are just chess pieces to the world powers in this 'great game'. Now the west is trying to hit Russia were it hurts the most. But i think they will fail like other 'colored revolutions' such as in places like Moldova and central asia.

[Big Bad Sven]

Here is a map of Ukraine and the division of its people



If ukraine is some how divided it will give Russia influence over the sea and the area's next to Moldova.

It will mean Russia will again have the ability to try control Moldova and give pressure to Romania

[Gocka]

This is multi faceted for sure and if you followed closely you could see it all unfold.

There was an independent movement of Ukrainians that were absolutely pro Ukraine/EU and anti Russia, they held modest protests for the resignation of the president and or building closer ties with the EU. Then seemingly over night the protests got violent, you ended up with armed and radical elements (Syria, Egypt) whose only goal was to oust the president. These radical elements who were the ones who eventually pushed out the president were 100% funded and backed by the USA and its western allies. Then again overnight there is an interim government in Ukraine a day after the president literally runs away and goes into hiding. How and who formed this government so fast in midst of chaos? Where have you seen a situation naturally escalate and finish in that sequence in such a short period of time? If it were that easy leaders would be ousted left and right around the world. Obviously Russia didn't even have time to react to the ousting and political take over, that is why they didn't even say a word and immediately sent troops into Crimea after they had realized what happened.

Both sides are pumping ours ears full of propaganda, yesterday I had to shut off the American news because I just couldn't listen anymore. It is so politically loaded biased that its not even worth listening to. They had former US general Wesley Clark on CNN to give his opinion on the matter. If any of you are familiar with Wesley Clark, he was the top US general during the War in Kosovo and responsible for the bombing of civilian targets in Serbia and also almost starting WW3 when he ordered a British general to shoot at and over power the Russian troops that were in Serbia. That guy is a sick human being and a war monger, and that is who they present on our biggest news channel to give us an opinion on what should be done in Ukraine? What do you guys think his suggestion was?

This has the potential to get ugly, but again I think the west will have to back down. There is no way Russia would ever back down from this one. They didn't back down for Syria and this one is a 100x more important to them. I'm shocked at the gall of the US to even attempt this one.

As usual the west out of pure arrogance over plays their hand and probably now gifted eastern Ukraine to Russia. Unless the west is going to put soldiers on the ground in Ukraine to stop Russia, this is going to happen.

[Gocka]

Literally as I wrote my post above news broke that Putin officially asked the Russian parliament to send troops to Crimea.

I also forgot to mention above that the west especially the USA has recently become very annoyed that Russia has started to obtain a very positive image around the world, especially because of the Olympics. While the US has significantly lost its influence around the world and is no longer even respected in many regions. They provoked this situation to get Russia to look like the bad guy when they inevitably reacted in the way that they are now.

Many of you who do not live in the US are not fully aware at the scope of anti Russian propaganda that has dominated in the USA for the last 50 years, even today before all this happened, you couldn't go three days without hearing something on the news about how Russia is evil and Putin is a Fascist, and how they are the enemy and the USA is the good guy. For example Russia's anti gay laws were made out to be like gays would be hung in public, yet just recently a 2 states in the USA tried to pass laws that would allow anyone to legally be allowed to discriminate against anyone as long as it was for religious reasons.

[George S.]

did anyone see the gory images of peoples heads being cracked open.

[Vangelovski]

I have no doubt in my mind that both the Americans and Russians are supporting their favoured factions both financially and logistically (and possibly militarily on the Russian side). However, that is a very different matter to what some are suggesting that virtually amounts to masterminding the situation. I think Gocka and Phoenix suggested that the US 'provoked' this situation - in simple terms, that would mean the US would have to be able to control the minds of millions of individuals to do what it wants them to do. I don't think so.

American and Russian influence would be zero if the Ukrainians did not already have a) a specific interest and b) the will to act to defend that interest. American and Russian support of their favoured factions is no more than a side show and are irrelevant to the extent that their interests differ from those of the Ukrainian factions. In other words, while the Americans and Russians have something to gain, the Ukrainians would only cooperate while it suits their own domestic interests.

A prime example is Russia's threat's to move into the Crimea. That would be impossible were it not for the fact that Russians make up nearly 60 per cent of the population and were not already clamouring for union with Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Soviet transfer of the Crimea from Russia to the Ukraine in 1954 was never popular with the local Russian population, but they tolerated it because it was still under Moscow's ultimate control.

As to Gocka's point about new governments being set up overnight. That does not happen and the only way to make it happen is through a military occupation. Its not something the amorphous 'west' masterminded. Anyone following the situation in the Ukraine over the past 20 years will know the key players, their ambitions and their multiple attempts at toppling rival governments, some successful, some not. This is merely a continuation of what has been playing out for two decades.

[Gocka]

I have no doubt in my mind that both the Americans and Russians are supporting their favoured factions both financially and logistically (and possibly militarily on the Russian side). However, that is a very different matter to what some are suggesting that virtually amounts to masterminding the situation. I think Gocka and Phoenix suggested that the US 'provoked' this situation - in simple terms, that would mean the US would have to be able to control the minds of millions of individuals to do what it wants them to do. I don't think so.

American and Russian influence would be zero if the Ukrainians did not already have a) a specific interest and b) the will to act to defend that interest. American and Russian support of their favoured factions is no more than a side show and are irrelevant to the extent that their interests differ from those of the Ukrainian factions. In other words, while the Americans and Russians have something to gain, the Ukrainians would only cooperate while it suits their own domestic interests.

A prime example is Russia's threat's to move into the Crimea. That would be impossible were it not for the fact that Russians make up nearly 60 per cent of the population and were not already clamouring for union with Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Soviet transfer of the Crimea from Russia to the Ukraine in 1954 was never popular with the local Russian population, but they tolerated it because it was still under Moscow's ultimate control.

As to Gocka's point about new governments being set up overnight. That does not happen and the only way to make it happen is through a military occupation. Its not something the amorphous 'west' masterminded. Anyone following the situation in the Ukraine over the past 20 years will know the key players, their ambitions and their multiple attempts at toppling rival governments, some successful, some not. This is merely a continuation of what has been playing out for two decades.

What I meant by provoked was: When they saw that there is discontent among a large portion of Ukrainians, once they saw that protests are forming they made sure that they got in contact with the more radical elements to give them support. Like I said this thing turned on its head with in a night, that is not normal in a naturally occurring situation. One day they are outside chanting the next night armed gunmen storm the parliament and cause the president to flea?

I am not suggesting that this entire thing was masterminded by the US and or Russia, far from it. Like I said this whole thing started as a Ukrainian issue from the common man Ukrainian opposition, then with some help from he west it morphed into something completely different.

Tom, can you really say we have not seen this in 2 or 3 other countries recently? I dont believe in conspiracy theories but I also dont usually believe in coincidence. The west without a doubt helped nudge this thing toward whats panning out now. In my opinion they knew what Russia's reaction would be and that is what they wanted, to make Russia look like a big bully on the world stage. The west is going to try and get a pro west government into western Ukraine, and Russia is going to try and take a nice chunk of the east.

You act as if regular people in inconsequential positions like ours have any effect on these kind of situations. You mentioned interests above, the interests of the Ukrainian people, well unfortunately more often hen not the people who come to power dont always have the same interests at heart that the common man does. The west and Russia are both going to work with groups within Ukraine to get what they want, and these groups are going to get what they want from their respective supporters but who says that is what the average Ukrainian wants?