Russia, Ukraine and the West

[EgejskaMakedonia]

This is pretty messed up. There is going to be a lot of blame shifting between pro-Russian rebels and Ukrainian forces. All 280 passengers and 15 crew members are reported to have died. Although Ukraine is somewhat in the direct line between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur, it does seem strange that they would fly over a war-zone (although I don't really know much about air-flight routes and such). The plane was a Boeing 777, and although the crash hasn't been officially reported, videos emerging show that it has indeed occurred.

What a horrible past year it has been for Malaysia in terms of aviation. Hopefully those responsible (whichever side) are brought to justice. This is absolutely tragic that innocent passengers from foreign countries have become victims of this civil conflict.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-in-east-ukraine-near-russian-border-reports-20140718-zu9p2.html

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Here's the flight path and last known sighting

[EgejskaMakedonia]

As expected, both parties are quick to deny involvement and are shifting the blame to one another. This will inevitably turn into a political war between the West and Russia in an attempt to gain some momentum for their respective agendas in Ukraine. In the process, they will tend to their own overarching interests and the true victims here will be quickly forgotten.

Here's an image of the crash site. Nobody would've survived this...

[Volokin]

SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane (FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO)
Print version
July 17, 2014, 10:55 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post

Wreckage of the Boeing 777 which crashed in eastern Ukraine on July 17.
© AFP





Kyiv Post

SEE ALSO

Reuters: Dutch prime minister returning to Netherlands after Malaysian plane downed in Ukraine


The Daily Beast: MH17 Black Box 'sent to Moscow for investigation'


Reuters: Separatists in Ukraine say they have found flight recorder of downed airliner

Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).

One phone call apparently was made at 4:40 p.m. Kyiv time, or 20 minutes after the plane crash, by Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic. He reports to a person identified by Ukraine’s SBU as a colonel in the main intelligence department of the general headquarters of the armed forces of the Russian Federation Vasili Geranin regarding the shot down plane, which is about to be examined by the militants.

The second intercepted conversation released by the Security Service of Ukraine was apparently between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” immediately upon inspection of the crash site.

“It’s 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, as he admitted to seeing no weapons on site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”

In the third part of conversation Cossack commander Nikolay Kozitsin talking to an unidentified militant cynically suggests that the Malaysia Airlines airplane could've been carrying spies, as, otherwise, it would have no business flying in that area.

Read the full transcript of an intercepted phone call below:

Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast).

Vasili Geranin: Pilots. Where are the pilots?

IB: Gone to search for and photograph the plane. Its smoking.

VG: How many minutes ago?

IB: About 30 minutes ago.

SBU comment: After examining the site of the plane the terrorists come to the conclusion that they have shot down a civilian plane. The next part of the conversation took place about 40 minutes later.

“Major”: These are Chernukhin folks who shot down the plane. From the Chernukhin check point. Those cossacks who are based in Chernukhino.

“Grek”: Yes, Major.

"Major": The plane fell apart in the air. In the area of Petropavlovskaya mine. The first “200” (code word for dead person). We have found the first “200”. A Civilian.

“Greek”: Well, what do you have there?

“Major”: In short, it was 100 percent a passenger (civilian) aircraft.

“Greek”: Are many people there?

“Major”: Holy sh__t! The debris fell right into the yards (of homes).

“Greek”: What kind of aircraft?

“Major”: I haven’t ascertained this. I haven’t been to the main sight. I am only surveying the scene where the first bodies fell. There are the remains of internal brackets, seats and bodies.

“Greek”: Is there anything left of the weapon?

“Major”: Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.

“Greek”: Are there documents?

“Major”: Yes, of one Indonesian student. From a university in Thompson.

Militant: Regarding the plane shot down in the area of Snizhne-Torez. It’s a civilian one. Fell down near Grabove. There are lots of corpses of women and children. The Cossacks are out there looking at all this.

They say on TV it’s AN-26 transport plane, but they say it’s written Malaysia Airlines on the plane. What was it doing on Ukraine’s territory?

Nikolay Kozitsin: That means they were carrying spies. They shouldn’t be f…cking flying. There is a war going on.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

[Constellation]

In politics, things are not always as they seem. Never discount a false flag by either party, or the American CIA.

[Volokin]

Agreed, mainstream media already claiming it was Russian forces, but I wouldn't believe anything at this time.

Regardless, Russia has now lost any support for their campaign in that region.

[George S.]

Someone gave the go ahead to shoot the airliner down.The airline flew that route to save fuel.Sanctions alone may not be enough.Some sort of intervention may benecessary against the rebels.

[Big Bad Sven]

Agreed, mainstream media already claiming it was Russian forces, but I wouldn't believe anything at this time.

Regardless, Russia has now lost any support for their campaign in that region.

Yep, spot on

In the past few months both ukraine and russia have been trying to win the propaganda war and trying to make each other look bad. Russia was actually winning this to be honest, but this unfortunate accident has really smashed the russian PR. Almost everyone in the west hates them now.

The western media have done a real good job to make the russians look like fools and heartless bastards. But it is quite obvious they are trying very hard in making the russians look bad. Today they had 'reports' of russian soldiers stealing the dead passengers credit cards, jewelry, money and even children's toys. Seems a bit far fetched.

What i have learned in the past 20 years is to never fully believe what you see on the news (this goes for both sides). Even though this looks like a massive russian cock up i am still going to wait and see what more info comes out.

Btw i must say it is rather interesting that when the USA destroyed a persian airliner carrying almost the exact same amount of people there was not much western exposure or outcry from western countries. Inb4 im called a russian sympathizer

[Volokin]

Correct. Moscow had been playing it smart up until this incident, like in the Crimean situation. Didn't have Russian uniforms so it wasn't us etc, everyone knew it was, but the Media couldn't capitalize on it because there was no proper evidence.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Btw i must say it is rather interesting that when the USA destroyed a persian airliner carrying almost the exact same amount of people there was not much western exposure or outcry from western countries. Inb4 im called a russian sympathizer

My dad was saying exactly this yesterday as well.

Both are just as tragic as eachother, but the victims in each instance are different (in terms of nationality). It wouldn't surprise me if the Russian media capitalised on every opportunity during that previous incident, just as the western media is doing now.

On the same day, Israeli ground forces also advanced on Gaza, yet this was completely eclipsed by news regarding the aircraft crash. The western media is very selective in what they choose to broadcast. It really is no surprise though, as 28 Australians perished, so it obviously takes precedence here.

But as I mentioned earlier, the real unfortunate thing here is that this will morph into a media war and nobody will take responsibility for what has occurred. Until the investigation is complete we should be careful to place blame on any particular party, although I must say that on the prima facie evidence, it looks like Russia has made a huge mistake.

[George S.]

The americans will give the Ukraine more arms so they can get rid of the prorussian rebels.If Russia doesn't comply then much more than sanctions are needed.Lets not say that we are scared of a war.If they did it once they will do it again.Killing 300 people is a serious matter.

[Big Bad Sven]

This tragic event has brought up two issues for me:

- What will China's response be when the pressure is on them? They are Russia's ally, but with the last Malaysian airline missing with majority Chinese passengers they will look like hypocrites to the international community but also their own people if they side with Russia.
Russia could be left out in the cold from now on.

- This is going into conspiracy theory territory: but after dropping 33,000 feet and exploding on impact, you can see debris everywhere, huge chunks of plane thrown randomly around and human victims clearly recognizable. Yet to this day there are people who believe the US government’s story that the plane that crashed in Shanksville, Pennsylvania on 9/11 evaporated into the thin air. Very strange indeed

[Big Bad Sven]

Some other questions i would like the western media to ask Ukraine and the USA:


Question 1:
Why two Ukrainian fighter jets followed Malaysian airliner minutes before the crash?

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741248

Question 2:
Why Ukraine’s air traffic controllers instructed MH17 to fly lower?

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ukraine-traffic-controllers-instructed-mh17-to-fly-lower-mas-says

Question 3:
Why was flight MH17 flying through a war zone where 10 aircraft have been shot down?

http://rt.com/op-edge/173788-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/

Interestingly, all the previous flights between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur in the past week took a different route. Flight MH17 was the only one to fly over the Ukraine/Russia border. All the other flights went through the Sea

http://nl.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140706/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

I would love these questions to be brought up in western media and answered my western politicians. But it will never happen. We cant ruin a good smear campain!

Meanwhile eastern ukranians are getting bombed to kingdom come but for some reason this is never on western news. i wonder why?

[George S.]

the route was okeyed by some aviation groupIts clear that the ukranians didn't fire on them.It was the Russians that fired it.

[Bill77]

Russian media uses Wikipedia to blame MH17 on Ukraine

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/russian-media-uses-wikipedia-to-blame-mh17-on-ukraine-20140719-zurmd.html

Sweet sixteen's favourite weapon "Wikipedia"