Smilkovci Lake Killings

[EgejskaMakedonia]

This division between the diaspora and Macedonians in the Republic is almost as embarrassing as the church dispute...

[DraganOfStip]

What are you talking about Dragan? On the one hand you claim you are too poor to even spend a few hours in a PEACEFUL protest rally in your own home town, but on the other hand, you claim you'll go to war if the need arises!? What a contradiction! And how will you be able to "afford" to go to war which could last for months or years?

United MKD, you were right - there is someone "pounding" their chest - its Dragan.

You're very strong when it comes to words my friend,you can sure talk the talk.
I won't need to 'afford' the war dude,I'll be drafted anyway.(And soldiers got paid during those months as well,so it's not like my kid won't have her milk every day)
BTW,why would you be interested about the situation in Macedonia?I thought you said that Australia is your country and that you'd go fight in East Timor for it.Just keep your head low and do the zig-zag while running,that should do the trick,or at least we were taught it would in the army.

[Vangelovski]

You're very strong when it comes to words my friend,you can sure talk the talk.
I won't need to 'afford' the war dude,I'll be drafted anyway.(And soldiers got paid during those months as well,so it's not like my kid won't have her milk every day)
BTW,why would you be interested about the situation in Macedonia?I thought you said that Australia is your country and that you'd go fight in East Timor for it.Just keep your head low and do the zig-zag while running,that should do the trick,or at least we were taught it would in the army.

So you'll only look after your own rights if your paid to do it? The slave mentality at its worst!

Why am I interested in Macedonia? One reason is that I have a genuine concern for my ethnic kin and the majority of my close family lives there and I genuinely care about their well-being. I would like to see them living in a JUST (as far as possible) society. In fact, I would like to see all people, regardless of their ethnonational background living in just societies.

Don't worry about zig-zagging, just stick to your fox hole and keep your head down. Make sure you're wearing an UCK uniform underneath your Macedonian one in case you get captured. Oh yeah, and learn some Albanian. That will not only help you escape captivity, but get a job after more concessions are made post "war".

[Risto the Great]

Your name calling is weak. I am not trying to make the MTO look pathetic. I don't care about the competition between these two organizations unless these groups are successful. So spare me the bullshit.

Maybe you "patriots" should private message each other rather than attack each other in English so every albano-vlach greek could giggle their monkey asses off.

I whole heartedly expect you to ban me, because you don't seem to be any type of leader worth following or listening to. And rather than being someone of character and ideas you insult people rather than prove them wrong.

Hey Ljubanec,
I wrote this:

What is there to be celebrated in relation this particular discussion? ... Give it your best shot.

Seriously, give me some warm fuzzy feelings about the situation in Macedonia. Particularly as it applies to the ethnic Albanian superiority over the Macedonian majority.

[Risto the Great]

This division between the diaspora and Macedonians in the Republic is almost as embarrassing as the church dispute...

Nation building has very often come from the Diaspora. How are people with slave mentalities going to self determine unless they empower themselves. We can see it plainly, they think we are attacking them.

Tiresome stuff that will continue until the Diaspora no longer cares I would imagine.

[Vangelovski]

Nation building has very often come from the Diaspora. How are people with slave mentalities going to self determine unless they empower themselves. We can see it plainly, they think we are attacking them.

Tiresome stuff that will continue until the Diaspora no longer cares I would imagine.

Maybe Macedonians in Macedonia need another 20 years in their self-created nightmare.

[Risto the Great]

It is not all over. They can flick on the switch if they really want to. They are the majority.

.... but they must really want to.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Nation building has very often come from the Diaspora. How are people with slave mentalities going to self determine unless they empower themselves. We can see it plainly, they think we are attacking them.

Tiresome stuff that will continue until the Diaspora no longer cares I would imagine.

That is the sad part. We (the diaspora) are only trying to help. We are all Macedonians, why can't we be united on that front?

Instead we argue over whose responsibility it is to defend the sovereignty of Macedonia. The answer is simply all of us, except in differing ways. While the Macedonians in the Republic may exert this responsibility by taking up arms during a conflict, the diaspora may provide constant financial and political support.

There is no use saying that diaspora Macedonians should go to the motherland and fight, or even vice-versa. I see it as a multi-national organisation. Each geographical location is subject to their environment, therefore their goals and responsibilities will differ to other branches of the organisation.

But at the end of the day, they are all dedicated to achieving the overall goals of the organisation.

The situation with Macedonians in the Republic and diaspora is no different. We all have the same goals, yet complain over who is going to do what to achieve them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Shame on me you say?Why?For putting my daughter's stomach above rallying?

Stop using your daughter as an excuse for doing nothing. It's pathetic. As if your child will suffer if you got off your ass and attended a peaceful protest.

For handing a dose of criticism to you patriotic diaspora people?

You can criticise as much as you like. In the end, you're living there, not me. It is your future and that of your daughter's that will be effected the most. Not that you care.

......I'll save you a place in my foxhole and an AK-47 so you can show me how much you love OUR country in person.

Again with the guns. Do you understand English? Do you understand the concept of a peaceful demonstration? And as for the imminent conflict that you're suggesting, the army doesn't need people like you to defeat a group of extremists. They don't need to conscript people like you to get the job done, so don't flatter yourself.

Now you're on SoM's black list of 'ovci' as well.

Wrong. I never called him an ovca. I called you an ovca. And he called those ovci 'weak Macedonians'. You're one of them. Would you prefer the term 'weak' instead of ovca?

I am not trying to make the MTO look pathetic. I don't care about the competition between these two organizations unless these groups are successful. So spare me the bullshit.

Take your own advice and spare me the BS. You're a UMD tool who lives in Canada and frequents this forum periodically to give us a dose of your usual pro-Gruevski garbage. The only one who looks pathetic is you.

Maybe you "patriots" should private message each other rather than attack each other in English so every albano-vlach greek could giggle their monkey asses off.

Every ethnicity has these sort of heated discussions and it is not unique to Macedonians. It's not like it's a secret that many Macedonians in Macedonia choose to do nothing. Our enemies aren't blind. With these discussions at least they know that some Macedonians care.

I whole heartedly expect you to ban me, because you don't seem to be any type of leader worth following or listening to. And rather than being someone of character and ideas you insult people rather than prove them wrong.

You should expect it, because each time you slime your way back in here you perform the same predictable charade, and quite frankly, it is tiring. Why you're still here if you dislike our views so much is still a mystery. Isn't there a UMD forum where you can collectively kiss Gruevski's ass and hi five each other for supporting Macedonia's entry into NATO and the EU as FYROM?

The answer is simply all of us, except in differing ways. While the Macedonians in the Republic may exert this responsibility by taking up arms during a conflict, the diaspora may provide constant financial and political support.

Exactly. But we aren't even asking people to take up arms, all we're asking is for them to make their voices heard in a peaceful demonstration. But that is too much for some people. Again, I will refer to the case of how Milosevic was toppled. People from all over Serbia flocked to the capital and DEMANDED their rights. We can't even get people like Dragan to step outside of his village.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

Exactly. But we aren't even asking people to take up arms, all we're asking is for them to make their voices heard in a peaceful demonstration. But that is too much for some people. Again, I will refer to the case of how Milosevic was toppled. People from all over Serbia flocked to the capital and DEMANDED their rights. We can't even get people like Dragan to step outside of his village.

Regardless of the action, whether it be peaceful protests as you mentioned or even joining the army, those in the Republic are within an environment to assume such responsibility. The will to act is definitely lacking.

Perhaps it is beyond the point where we essentially order those in the Republic to act. The diaspora has tried to convey this message to no avail. I think that the Macedonians in the Republic need to come to a realisation on their own, and then they will act out of their own will. We can tell them to do this and that, but if they don't see underlying purpose, then the people will learn nothing. They will be doomed to make the same mistake in say 10-15 years down the track if no learning experience occurs.

What I'm basically getting at is that the diaspora has tried to awaken the Macedonians residing in Macedonia, with minimal results. But if they don't see the deconstruction of their nation as a current priority, then they will inevitably suffer the consequences in the future.

[Vangelovski]

Back to the actual topic of the thread, the Macedonian Government does not seem to be taking advantage of the situation (surpised?):

About 1,500 people have joined a protest by ethnic Albanians in Macedonia to demand a fair trial for five people suspected of murder in a case that has raised ethnic tension in the tiny country.
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/04/446...#storylink=cpy

Rather than news stories showing radical Islamist attempting to pervert the course of justice, we have 'protesters' seeking a 'fair trial'.

[Risto the Great]

Rather than news stories showing radical Islamist attempting to pervert the course of justice, we have 'protesters' seeking a 'fair trial'.

There goes the "gift".

Why don't we point out the obvious for the more sheepified among us:

1. A government would normally use such a horrific event as this to weed out terrorists and develop strategies to limit the spread of this brand of Islam.
2. The world community would have been horrified by the actions of the ethnic Albanian terrorists.
3. The government is in league with these terrorists and will do nothing that suggests there is disharmony in Macedonia.
4. The government will not even call the alleged perpetrators "Albanians" for fear of promoting disharmony.
5. The ethnic Albanians have capitalised on what most would think was an un-winnable situation. They are winning!
6. The (Ro)Macedonians whine about the Diaspora not coming to Macedonia to fight.
7. The (Ro)Macedonians do nothing.
8. The sheep still graze in the fields ... while Macedonia burns.

[Brian]

Systems Design and Development 101 = Ask questions.

Unless your already a qualified expert in a particular field ask questions from those who are.

I am obviously one of the diaspora but in this organic 'bun fight' between RoM Vs. Diaspora I can't support either side.

Can I summarize the Diaspora view with,

RtG Post455
"Nation building has very often come from the Diaspora. How are people with slave mentalities going to self determine unless they empower themselves. We can see it plainly, they think we are attacking them.

Tiresome stuff that will continue until the Diaspora no longer cares I would imagine."

and
RtG Post392
"Dragan, maybe you should vote for a new government to get Macedonia out of this mess. But I forget, you don't vote.

Greece has similar unemployment rates now. They protest if their salads don't have enough vinegar.

I am certainly not mocking your poverty. I am however astounded at what level of deprivation RoMacedonians are willing to put up with before they get fed up and rise as one."

There's a problem so go fix it, "...what level of deprivation RoMacedonians are willing to put up..."
It very much reminds me of that famous Nike add "Just Do It".

It's easy for an individual person to feel disempowered, "what can I do on my own?"

Rather than bashing DraganOfStip and others with 'it's obvious there's a problem' and 'Just Do It' did anyone ask what the political grass-roots level in RoM is?

I think EgejskaMakedonia put it well in

EgejskaMakedonia Post458
"Instead we argue over whose responsibility it is to defend the sovereignty of Macedonia. The answer is simply all of us, except in differing ways.
...
I see it as a multi-national organisation. Each geographical location is subject to their environment, therefore their goals and responsibilities will differ to other branches of the organisation.

But at the end of the day, they are all dedicated to achieving the overall goals of the organisation."

But IS there an "organisation"?
Eg. As mentioned the Shiptari mobilise for a protest very quickly. Do you think they did it ALL as INDEVIDUALS? or is there a structure behind them?

Do we have a structure of individual (leaders) who can put out the call for an assembly and coordinate a meeting point?
Do we have sympathetic organisations like private bus companies?
The driver is part of the strike so he can provide his services.
The bus company can provide the bus(es).
People can kick-in a little for the cost of fuel.
Sympathetic journalists can cover the event, not as outside news trying to find out what it's all about and ONLY some of the message getting through but as a pre-thought out pre-scripted (a tight script with emotive poignant words for maximum impact) pre-arranged who will speak so people with less oratory skills don't come off sounding like yahoos and the impact of the message missed.
Do we have banners or placards ready with the "organisation" or a place where they can be made?
Yes it's propaganda, WTF is wrong with that? - it's an information war to create (domestic and external) opinion and through this steer political opinion in the direction YOU want to achieve the action/results YOU want.

Things can be done with not much expense, but is there the ground-level network in place with sympathetic organisations supporting it?

Our members from RoM might best be able to answer this.

But as EgejskaMakedonia put it

EgejskaMakedonia Post458
"I see it as a multi-national organisation. Each geographical location is subject to their environment, therefore their goals and responsibilities will differ to other branches of the organisation."

Can the diaspora members tell us if they know of any diaspora organisations in touch with and coordinating actions with grass-roots organisations in RoM?

Is there a 'start position' in RoM because otherwise RtG's suggestion

RtG Post446
You are 99% there.
[B]Why not start your own political party?[/B] You sound intelligent. I mean it. This is the apathy that we in the Diaspora find utterly contemptible.

is like saying why haven't you gone to the moon before you've invented the steam engine.

Great suggestion RtG, but do you know what's involved in starting a political party and the considerable finances you will need??? Yet you feel it's ok to ask this of an ordinary individual trying to pay the bills on a basic salary while you and others chime -in that "being poor" shouldn't matter, Just Do It.

RtG you told us you don't have relatives in RoM as your's came out after the civil war in Greece, but Vangelovski told us he has gone back to RoM numerous times and

Vangelovski Post453
"So you'll only look after your own rights if your paid to do it? The slave mentality at its worst!

Why am I interested in Macedonia? One reason is that I have a genuine concern for my ethnic kin and the majority of my close family lives there and I genuinely care about their well-being. I would like to see them living in a JUST (as far as possible) society. In fact, I would like to see all people, regardless of their ethnonational background living in just societies."

and SoM told us he had many patriotic relatives who fought in the 2001 war.

SoM Post361
"Many of my relatives from Bitola and Prilep fought for Macedonia in 2001, my first cousin was shot and wounded in Tetovo, so spare me the rant. Macedonians didn't lose because they were numerically inferior and needed people from the diaspora to swell their ranks, they lost because their government betrayed them - and people like you did jack shit about it, except complain about why others weren't there to do what they should've been doing themselves.

Great stuff guys! A glimmer of genuine patriotism. That's really good to hear.

So RtG as you say

RtG Post457
It is not all over. They can flick on the switch if they really want to. They are the majority.

.... but they must really want to.

if it's not all over and the RoMs need to do it themselves then as EgejskaMaked say "all parts of the organisation need to work together",
why don't you help Vangelovski and SoM help their patriotic relatives in RoM set up a political party to which people of lesser means like DraganOfStip (no offense intended Dragan) and others can rally behind knowing it's a genuinely patriotic organization/party and people like BBS, as he says

BBS Post408
"But going back on financially supporting macedonian patriotic/political parties in macedonia, i would love to do that but it seems like there is no one in macedonia that really wants to follow the macedonian cause, or not what it is. Thats the problem with macedonia, there is no real true patriotic/nationalist parties that want the best for macedonians."

will have somewhere to pour-in their deviz support.


The MTO can be an inspirational focal point for coordinating actions as EgejskaMakedonia says

EgejskaMakedonia Post374
"...but a collective movement is required for any form of change to take place."

This way patriotic RoMs (Vangelovski's and SoM's relatives) can lead the way as everyone has been suggesting.
You trust Vangelovski an SoM so you know any support you throw at it will not be misused to go on a holiday with.
BBS and others trust you 3 and so will feel confident that any support will not be squandered and that such an organisation/party will have TRUE patriotism at it's hart unlike the evil SDSM or slimy sly DPME
DraganOfStip and others will have somewhere to go knowing their efforts will not be for nothing.
EgejskaMakedonia and other diaspora will not feel embarrass (as he says) to see all this infighting going on.

Or is it all "chest-beating" as DraganOfStip is accused of and as EgejskaMakedonia says

EgejskaMakedonia Post374
This links back to a lack of leadership. Nobody is seemingly willing to put their lives on hold and risk everything to save Macedonia. Leaders are needed, and in due time the people will follow. We see this human trait of 'passing the buck' in a range of circumstances.
...
Many of us wouldn't exit our comfort zone in the diaspora and take up arms in Macedonia, but we are equally capable of assisting in other ways. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the Macedonians residing in the Republic to protect their land and rights.

The only factor missing is leadership.

and Post451
This division between the diaspora and Macedonians in the Republic is almost as embarrassing as the church dispute...

Do you really expect a political party to spring up (as suggested) from one ordinary man on a basic salary? Is this what the 'bun fight' (pages of it) has been about?

He is not every man in RoM and cannot answer for every RoM person and why a movement/organisation/political party has not been formed.

Your collective relatives are RoM people, do you know why they haven't formed a political party yet??? As someone who has lived in Australia all his life and had very limited contact with RoM and hence not particularly familiar with the RoM situation I'd be curious to know.

As DraganOfStip says

DraganOfStip Post452
You're very strong when it comes to words my friend,you can sure talk the talk.

But is there any 'walk'?

Then you can go back to fighting for "your country" Australia in East Timor, Iraq and Afghanistan where there's "more purpose"(Phoenix) than making the bankers richer.



By the way, off-topic, REALLY pathetic Phoenix with the "more purpose" comment, but that's typical of you. Gaining real live warfare experience is a by-product of war you idiot, NOT A PURPOSE, unless of course your saying the wars were started and millions of people killed so that the army could practice their killing skills!

I probably wont be winning any friends with this post but don't blame me, I'm just "giving friendly advice" like others have been doing.

[Vangelovski]

Toby, I can't even make out which bits you're quoting and which bits are you. Have you worked out how to use the 'quote' function? It might tidy your incoherent rabble up a little and one day someone may actually read it.

[Stojacanec]

Back to the actual topic of the thread, the Macedonian Government does not seem to be taking advantage of the situation (surpised?):

Rather than news stories showing radical Islamist attempting to pervert the course of justice, we have 'protesters' seeking a 'fair trial'.

Even the most illiterate radical Albanian can refer to a country's penal code for terrorist’s acts for guidance on a fair trial.

To all Albanian protesters in Skopje, this is your idiots guide to terrorist penal code act:

I think a cold blooded unprovoked murder deserves a life sentence. I won’t need a legal cleric to search long for past precedence on that.

Those assisting in acts of terrorism should expect anything up to 10 years in jail.

So if the murderers get anything more than life in prison, in absence of a death penalty, I fully support the Albanian protests in the streets of Skopje.