Smilkovci Lake Killings

[lavce pelagonski]

They chant UCK and we are supposed to believe that after the ramkoven dogovor everything has been resolved. They wont stop until they get what they wont.

[Big Bad Sven]

Tell me,why did you (or your parents,regardless) emigrate to Australia if you loved your country so much?Be honest with me.

When you think about a lot of macedonians who moved to australia/canada in the 60's and 70's left Tito's paradise when it was at its peak. When there were lots of jobs for life and life was good (according to yugozombies and lovers of tito).

I would be more worried about the macedonians of today who are wanting to leave ASAP.....

[DraganOfStip]

YOU and every other Macedonian in Macedonia are responsible for YOURSELVES. No one owes you anything. Stop making excuses and do YOUR job.

Whatever dude.The very fact that you'd prefer fighting for Australia rather than your motherland says enough about you.You're a role model for us all.Way to go.

[Big Bad Sven]

I completely disagree, Macedonians are willing to defend their nation as they were in 2001. The problem is in the leadership of the country.

Do you forget the government in 2001? A bulgar traitor that planned to divide the country with bulgaria?

The people are willing to defend, however our whole political leadership are paid spies for foreign powers

Why was the referendum to stop shiptar take over in macedonia a failure in 2004? All i can remember from that debacle was plenty of macedonians getting pissed with their shiptar friends the night before and waving american flags?

[DraganOfStip]

When you think about a lot of macedonians who moved to australia/canada in the 60's and 70's left Tito's paradise when it was at its peak. When there were lots of jobs for life and life was good (according to yugozombies and lovers of tito).

I would be more worried about the macedonians of today who are wanting to leave ASAP.....

Still the question remains unanswered:why did all the patriots leave their country if they loved it so much and now do all the 'solenje pamet'?An honest answer please.

[Phoenix]

Whatever dude.The very fact that you'd prefer fighting for Australia rather than your motherland says enough about you.You're a role model for us all.Way to go.

It appears that the point is totally lost on you...until you guys understand that your destiny is in your hands alone you will continue to lose Macedonia...you reckon things are bad in Macedonia today...not even God will help you once you allow the shiptari to take over...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dragan, face the facts, you don't have the heart or integrity to stand up for what is right. Don't twist the story and make it out like we're asking you to pick up a rifle and go kill people, nobody here has asked you to do that. All you have done is make excuses for your own inaction and blame others for not doing what YOU should be doing. You being "too poor" has nothing to do with it. It is your slave mentality and absolutely pathetic sense of Macedonian identity that is the real problem here. Како не ти е срам бе овца една, сите другите се криви оти ти самиот не сакаш да станиш и да се бориш за својата држава, за својата иднина. Немаш време таму да крениш глас а имаш време тука да ни тресиш глупости цел ден.

[Vangelovski]

Whatever dude.The very fact that you'd prefer fighting for Australia rather than your motherland says enough about you.You're a role model for us all.Way to go.

It is the country that YOU live in and YOUR rights that are in question. The diaspora does not need to do anything and just the fact that it is doing anything at all is more than enough. YOUR rights and the country that YOU live in are YOUR responsibility, no one else's. If you don't want to do anything, then don't, but don't go blaming everyone else for the mess that you have made for yourselves and then demanding that everyone else sort it out like they owe you something.

SoM has pointed out the obvious in that no one has even asked you to do anything drastic. All we suggested was peaceful non-violent action that would help YOU and other Macedonians in Macedonia. There is absolutely nothing that we can gain from it, its all out YOU and YOUR rights, YOUR lives.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Hey SoM, it's been a while, good to be back. Yes, I firmly believe our forces, the Macedonian Police and then the Army have a great capacity to crash any conflicts and in no time.

So it would be fair to say that they don't need volunteers from the diaspora to assist them in this task, right?

All the ones that gave their lifes gave them for nothing, our gov went in and signed everyones life away.

YES.

The Macedonian people have one chance to hold on to what they have but the very first thing is not to go into conflict with the Albanians but to raise themselves against the everlasting VMRO/SDSM who have sold us out to the devil.

YES.

The Macedonian people must take control of their country and simply overturn the gov. Until that happens I can only say GOD HELP US!

YES.

This is why I disagree with the excuses that people like Dragan are making, like they are "too poor" to protest for a couple of hours a day, or that people from the diaspora should be in Macedonia protesting for them even though they won't even do it themselves. They will never topple the government if they don't start making their voices heard. When Slobodan Milosevic was overthrown, several hundred thousands of protesters from ALL OVER Serbia arrived in Belgrade to protest, and they didn't leave until their objective was achieved. If Macedonians in Macedonia want change, then they need to struggle for it rather than wait for others to struggle for them.

[United MKD]

Како не ти е срам бе овца една, сите другите се криви оти ти самиот не сакаш да станиш и да се бориш за својата држава, за својата иднина. Немаш време таму да крениш глас а имаш време тука да ни тресиш глупости цел ден.

There's no need to call him an ovca and other derogatory names, he has come to the MTO to be involved in discussions and broaden his knowledge in Macedonian history (where majority of his posts are) not be ridiculed.

I think BBS sums it up very well in this post.

My personal opinion is that it is not the role or responsibility of the diaspora to come to macedonia and pick up arms and fight s small conflict against a few radical shiptars, that is the job of the army and police which they appear to be doing a poor job of.

I think the role of the diaspora is to fight on another front, such as spreading the word of truth (through the internet, protests and if possible the media), lobbie groups that can influence western governments and even media opinion, and also to financially support strong macedonian people/movements/parties in macedonia.

Look at how influential the Irish Diaspora in New York/Boston were, they were able to provide the IRA with a shit load of money and support them. I doubt many Irish-Americans went back to Northern Ireland.
Or the shiptar diaspora, Soldier of Macedon posted a article of Joseph DioGuardi - people like him have done so much for the shiptar cause and he never had to go to kosovo and pick up a gun.
The armenian diaspora have been great in getting western countries to recognize the armenian genocide, yet they were never ridiculed or taunted by armenians living in armenia to come and fight the turks/azeries.
The macedonian diaspora is working hard, we have managed to get Canada and USA to recognize macedonia, and australian macedonians have won a tough battle for the right not to be called "slavic-macedonians". No offense, but it seems like the diaspora macedonians are more interested in macedonia then people from macedonia. In macedonia it is obvious the shiptars want macedonia more then the macedonians.

But going back on financially supporting macedonian patriotic/political parties in macedonia, i would love to do that but it seems like there is no one in macedonia that really wants to follow the macedonian cause, or not what it is. Thats the problem with macedonia, there is no real true patriotic/nationalist parties that want the best for macedonians.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There's no need to call him an ovca and other derogatory names.....

He is the one who began making derogatory remarks about Macedonians outside of Macedonia because they aren't there to protest, even though he lives there and isn't prepared to do jack shit himself. He is an ovca because he follows the lead of other lazy and indifferent people in Macedonia. Before you step in to take the 'moral' high ground, read the thread properly. And after you've done that, perhaps you would be so kind as to provide your own opinion about his excuses and if they seem acceptable to you.

........he has come to the MTO to be involved in discussions and broaden his knowledge in Macedonian history (where majority of his posts are) not be ridiculed.

Then he should stick to the history section of the forum and stay out of the political discussions if he can't cope with the truth. Nobody here is 'ridiculed' for nothing, but if people promote a slave mentality and blame others for it, then they should expect a reaction.

[United MKD]

He is the one who began making derogatory remarks about Macedonians outside of Macedonia because they aren't there to protest, even though he lives there and isn't prepared to do jack shit himself. He is an ovca because he follows the lead of other lazy and indifferent people in Macedonia. Before you step in to take the 'moral' high ground, read the thread properly. And after you've done that, perhaps you would be so kind as to provide your own opinion about his excuses and if they seem acceptable to you.

Then he should stick to the history section of the forum and stay out of the political discussions if he can't cope with the truth. Nobody here is 'ridiculed' for nothing, but if people promote a slave mentality and blame others for it, then they should expect a reaction.

I'm not disagreeing with anything, I think the post by BBS I quoted summed it up very well what is expected from the diaspora and what we can do. At the end of the day it's all up to the citizens in Macedonia. If they think it is hard now when we are still the overwhelming majority they better think how it will be in a few decades time.

But here comes the typical Macedonian mentality of abusing and calling each other names when we don't agree with another persons point of view. That's his point of view as a citizen in Macedonia and this is ours from the diaspora. He's not the enemy here he doesn't wish for the demise of the country he just needs to see what we're trying to say. We're never united in anything and 2001 is a prime example of that, that's why this country is finished. Pains me to say but more and more I thank God that I am not living in that country surrounded by those animals and weak Macedonians.

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Албански протести в Скопие - YouTube

[Ljubanec]

The fact that there is an argument here between Macedonians over a "public relations gift" that has been given to Macedonia. There are pictures of a number of Charles Manson look alikes chanting Allah akbar in Skopje and yet we are pounding our chest of who is the biggest patriot. BTW SoM you rhetoric is weak and you can never be a leader because crying is not a quality people respect.

[Big Bad Sven]

The fact that there is an argument here between Macedonians over a "public relations gift" that has been given to Macedonia. There are pictures of a number of Charles Manson look alikes chanting Allah akbar in Skopje and yet we are pounding our chest of who is the biggest patriot. BTW SoM you rhetoric is weak and you can never be a leader because crying is not a quality people respect.

My personal opinion is that it doesn’t matter that we have footage or proof that there is a decent percentage of shiptars in Macedonia that are fanatical islamists and are loyal to Saudi Arabia. This changes nothing in terms of Macedonia “winning support” from the west since 9/11. And I can guarantee you that western media will still paint the shiptars as innocent victims still (as recent articles still suggest).

I would imagine American CIA and European intelligence would well know that the Saudi’s are spending lots of money in the Balkans to build huge mosques and install fanatical clerics, yet they have done nothing to stop it.

The west knew who they were getting in bed with in the 90’s in supporting the bosniaks and shiptars who had dodgy dealings with Al-Queada and other fanatical Islamic groups – yet it did not stop them in doing business with them.

And the most important factor, today, we see the west in bed again with Saudi Arabia, we see the west supporting fanatical muslim regimes in Africa, Libya and Iraq(who are puppets/supported by the fanatical Saudi's), and now we see the west supporting muslim fanatics in Syria. We see the west turn a blind eye to racist and fanatic countries such as Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, even though these countries have poor human rights against their own people and are breeding places for Al-Quaeda, the muslim brotherhood and other fanatical trash like that.

Nothing has changed since 9/11 really. I believe the west wants a weak Serbia (a key Russian ally) and in doing so it needs to have a strong Albanian presence, and poor Macedonia is caught in the cross fire as it is relatively not so important to the “big players”. The sacrificial lamb so to speak for the great powers.

[Soldier of Macedon]

But here comes the typical Macedonian mentality of abusing and calling each other names when we don't agree with another persons point of view...............I thank God that I am not living in that country surrounded by those animals and weak Macedonians.

You involved yourself into the latter part of a discussion which you weren't adequately following. I commend you for wanting to stick up for a fellow Macedonian. Next time make an effort to read the discussion properly because you eventually came to the same conclusion that I did. I call them ovci, you call them weak Macedonians. There is no difference.

That's his point of view as a citizen in Macedonia and this is ours from the diaspora. He's not the enemy here he doesn't wish for the demise of the country he just needs to see what we're trying to say.

This isn't just about the different perceptions between Macedonians from the republic and those from the diaspora. I am sure there are people in Macedonia who also think like many of us here and understand the requirement for action if there is to be positive change. However, those who live in Macedonia and aren't doing anything about it are indirectly assisting our main enemy (the government) by allowing things to degenerate even further. Those are the weak Macedonians you made reference to. Dragan is one of those people, and he certainly can't claim ignorance. If he has led you to believe otherwise, then explain why.

BTW SoM you rhetoric is weak and you can never be a leader because crying is not a quality people respect.

There is no rhetoric or crying on my behalf, you UMD puppet. I am telling it how it is. If you're unable to handle the truth then go elsewhere where they will sugar-coat it for you. I am a drop in an ocean of millions of Macedonians, many of whom (both in and out of Macedonia) have the same integrity and sense of Macedonian identity like I do. If only there were more such people. Instead, we have people who are weak and/or indifferent in Macedonia, and anonymous ramblers from the diaspora like yourself, who do nothing but slither in and out of patriotic forums and serve no purpose or provide any value. Who are you? What are you doing about the situation? What do you think Macedonians in Macedonia should be doing? What do you think of those Macedonians that aren't doing what you think they should be doing? Is it that hard to tell what is right and wrong in this situation? Or are you just here because you have an axe to grind?