Smilkovci Lake Killings

[DraganOfStip]

Yet you guys seem to have enough money to go for yearly holidays in Greece almost every year?
What about all those people from places who to to over priced Ohrid every year and stay in overpriced accomodation? I see plenty of number plates from Skopje, Stip, Bitola etc. You guys can travel to party in Ohrid but not to stand up for your rights?

And if you really want to live the luxury life you can go to Italy and Austria as well (as a lot of "poor" macedonians do so these days)

Sven,you're mixing 'babi i zabi' here.Tell me since you're so well informed,how many Macedonians went on holiday in Greece during the summer?And more important - WHO were they?I bet it was the government guys,or their relatives placed on high positions and employees of the administration (many obedient party soldiers).And just if someone goes on a weekend in Ohrid,it's only a matter of days,it's not Bora-Bora so you have to pay hundreds of dollars a day.And you think their employers won't get those working hours back?My town is known for the textile industry.In every factory when there's a national holiday in a weekday,they'll get the workers work overtime for the missing hours during that day.It's common practice here.Last summer I worked 6 weeks without a day off so that I could have a week of vacation.And you know what I used it for?To rest my aching feet and sore back.An unforgettable holiday indeed.Should have taken some pictures to show my grandchildren.

[Risto the Great]

Dragan, maybe you should vote for a new government to get Macedonia out of this mess. But I forget, you don't vote.

Greece has similar unemployment rates now. They protest if their salads don't have enough vinegar.

I am certainly not mocking your poverty. I am however astounded at what level of deprivation RoMacedonians are willing to put up with before they get fed up and rise as one.

[DraganOfStip]

Yet interesting enough we see shiptars travel from kosovo to macedonia, or albania to macedonia to support their kinsmen and illegally cross borders, yet you are having some technical issues to travel 1 hour to skopje.

You didnt have to travel to skopje anyway, you guys in stip could have protested. That way it would be better for macedonians who live in area's were there are no albanians, as you guys are too scared of them and you can protest in peace.

Can you imagine in the late 80's when in the eastern bloc, instead of people demonstrating and bringing down the communist dictatorships they instead shrugged their shoulders and said it was too hard or complained that it took one hour to get to the protests. Or imagine if the croats or shiptars didnt protest and start the fall of Yugoslavia because they couldn't take a day off work.

When 4 soldiers from Stip were killed in a single attack in the 2001 conflict,I was among the people that took to the streets demanding immediate response.Some of them later threw molotov cocktails at the mosque and demolished houses of the few muslims (since we don't have shiptars in Stip thankfully) and the rally turned violent for a bit.But anyway,I took to the streets then and if there was such a protest in my hometown (and outside my working hours of course ) I would do the same again.However,there wasn't.The organizers of the rally decided it was going to be held in Skopje.And Skopjani crapped all over it.Not my fault.

[DedoAleko]

"Овде станува збор за граѓански протест кој имаше одредена етничка димензија која беше очигледна во вчерашниот настан, но не верувам дека ќе влијае значително затоа што наскоро ќе започне судската расправа, ќе се обелоденат доказите и луѓето ќе разберат дека станува збор за сериозни докази и дека не станува збор за етнички работи затоа што убиство е убиство независно кој го направиле и дали бил Македонец, Албанец, Турчин, Ром, Србин, Бошњак или која било друга националност не може да се оправда. Не можеме да кажеме дека ако некој е од одредена етничка припадност тоа треба да го оправдаме. Тоа треба да се осуди" ,нагласи претседателот на Владата.

http://dnevnik.com.mk/default.asp?ItemID=CA6EFD3D8924794E8F69B3D4C54E8387

[DraganOfStip]

To sum all up : this debate can go on forever with words.Pretty soon guns will start blazing again and Macedonia will then see who her REAL sons are - whether the ignorant,indifferent,poor,cowardly ovci in the homeland with the AK's in their hands;or the proud,broad-hearted,love-full patriots abroad with Macedonia in their hearts and Vegemite sandwich and Crown Lager in their hands,on their couches watching the footage from the bloodbath cheering 'Go Macedonia,go Macedonia' as if it was a football game.

[Vangelovski]

@ Vangelovski:
Just a quick info for you ,oh proud Macedonian patriot - Macedonia has an unemployment rate of more than 25%,with over 70% of the population barely making it through the month.How dare you mock your own people for their poverty?If you have resolved your life income issue that's great for you,way to go.But us here,the majority of your fellow kinsmen,live in another reality.I didn't say you were billionaires,but tell me honestly - did you ever woke up one morning wondering if there's enough money to buy milk for your kid?That's something most of us face on a daily basis dude,so mocking us for our poverty is a blow below the belt.You must feel pretty good about yourself.

Again, that's nowhere near as bad as most people across the world who still manage to stand up for their rights, including our own forefathers. And what has your so-called "poverty" got to do with your ability to stand up for your own rights anyway? Why does it stop you and no other people on the face of the planet?

I'm not mocking your so-called poverty, I'm mocking your BS excuses for doing nothing.

And yes, I have gone hungry many times in my life. That did not destroy my resolve, it only made it stronger - the usual response in normal human beings.

[Vangelovski]

To sum all up : this debate can go on forever with words.Pretty soon guns will start blazing again and Macedonia will then see who her REAL sons are - whether the ignorant,indifferent,poor,cowardly ovci in the homeland with the AK's in their hands;or the proud,broad-hearted,love-full patriots abroad with Macedonia in their hearts and Vegemite sandwich and Crown Lager in their hands,on their couches watching the footage from the bloodbath cheering 'Go Macedonia,go Macedonia' as if it was a football game.

Up until now you were claiming you were too poor to even attend a peaceful protest - now your insinuating you'll go to war!?!?! We'll be sure to look out for you while watching it all live through our live satellite connected 5000 inch plasma televisions. We'll even cheer for you if we see you on the front line.

You still haven't answered my questions and in particular this one:

Seeing as you think one must first fight in order to comment, now that you have commented, will you come to Australia to solve all of our problems?

[George S.]

There is a saying in politics that the voters allways got what they voted for.We know how poor people can be but to avoid exercising their vote for their own good or betterment defies logic.One would expect a change to occur in the people theselves,we are coming to the "slave mindset".The people need to snap out of it & simply go with a party that will really represnt them.Something is drastically wrong in macedonia when people throw their arms in the air & give up before they start.We have politicians simply compromising or capitulating without consulting with the people.I think the people need to act & act soon before it's too late.

[Risto the Great]

Pretty soon guns will start blazing again and Macedonia will then see who her REAL sons are

Seriously, were guns blazing when the referendum about boundaries failed?
Guns are not even necessary if (Ro)Macedonians take an honest look at themselves.

[Mactruth]

Let's keep in mind that this is only 1500-3000 Albanian Muslims, many relatives of those arrested, out of approximately 500,000 Albanians in Macedonia. A very small percentage, and their pictures of the black flag of jihad and Islam will rule all is across the internet, even Wikipedia:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Železarsko_lake_killings

[Phoenix]

@Dragan,

...the very fact that you have a little girl (God bless her and all of you) is reason enough to be more politically involved and committed to defend YOUR country with all means available to you, because if you don't you'll be condemning that little girl to an uncertain future.

There seems to be a real lack of responsibility and accountability in Macedonia today, you blame those in Skopje for not doing enough on the basis that in Stip there's no shiptari, so by extension, no need to make an effort to protest but then you complain why the diaspora isn't buying airline tickets to defend Macedonia.

I'm in Australia and have lived almost my entire life here. The day might come when Indonesia or China invade this country but I can assure you I wont be calling you to help me defend my home, I'll be doing it myself.

In 2001, I had 3 first cousins (all from Bitola) fighting in Tetovo, two were just young kids, the other an adult with 2 kids of his own. They didn't call for help from the diaspora, they didn't hide under their beds or go AWOL...that's responsibility and accountability and I'm sure it's available in spades, somewhere amongst some Macedonians.

You guys need to understand that you wont be given anything in Macedonia if you don't ask for it or fight for it.
The successive governments that have ruled Macedonia for the last 2 decades have gained massive riches whilst the rest of you can't make ends meet.
That's not my fault here in Australia, that's your own fault because you allowed them to screw you over, day after day for the last 2 decades.

Just think about it...20 fuckin' years and you still haven't got a good paying job, job security, social security or a future without the fear of how you're going to feed your little girl each day.

Don't blame the diaspora for the collective inactions of Macedonians, I think you know this, you seem like a smart guy and I reckon you know a thing or two about life in Australia and you should be aware that money doesn't grow on trees here and that most Macedonians work like fuckin dogs to get those plasma tv's...the point is they get off their arses and do whatever it takes...feeling sorry about yourselves will get you nowhere and if you don't defend your 'house' nobody else will give a fuck about it or you...

With respect.

[Phoenix]

Multicam is fantastic in more ways than one and I recommend it to any hunter out there.

The additional benefit, if you buy it from an ADF outlet like we have in Canberra, you can get the military grade version which is coated with some chemical (which name escapes me) making it almost invisible to night vision equipment. Though, I'm sure there are health repercussions to whatever it is they are coating it with.

That's interesting about it's night vision properties.

I think multicam might be adapted into a uniquely Australian design after field trials undertaken by Aus SAS patrols in Afghanistan, they seem to be forever honing and modifying equipment and procedures that slowly filter down throughout the ADF.

[Phoenix]

Please oh please explain to me how how these Macedonians are defending Australia by helping occupy countries like Iraq and Afghanistan?

"We" (Macedonians) should be obliged to defend our nation, not go off occupying nations to make the US Corporations even richer by serving in the Australian "defense" force.

Volk, on one hand you have the moral dilema of involving yourself in war, versus the practical experience of honing procedures, practices and systems to be at the top of your game, particularly at the pointy end of operations (special forces).

The ADF is for the first time in over a decade moving into an uncertain future (post Afghanistan)...the period from East Timor to Afghanistan has brought massive military spending on Australia's armed forces (mainly land forces) but particularly it's special forces capability and an elevated counter terrorism capacity.

The period between the end of the Vietnam War and the operation in East Timor (some 25 years) was an extremely difficult period for the Australian military, with lack of funding, a growing exodus of highly qualified special forces operators (due to a lack of involvement in real world conflicts). Post Afghanistan could bring back these uncertain conditions for our (Aus) military (including Macedonia's capabilities).

[Soldier of Macedon]

From the wikipedia link above:

On May 5, 2012, Republican politician, Joseph J. DioGuardi, who is of Albanian descent, stated:

“The Macedonian and Serbian governments have designed a well-orchestrated top secret plan, aiming to compromise and stain the freedom-loving Albanian people in front of the world public opinion. Albanians are facing brutal tortures which have taken ultra-nationalist connotations. The Albanian people are not terrorists."[32]

What a lying moron. He can't even bring himself to admit the truth about his own people and still looks to blame others.

[Volk]

Volk, on one hand you have the moral dilema of involving yourself in war, versus the practical experience of honing procedures, practices and systems to be at the top of your game, particularly at the pointy end of operations (special forces).

The ADF is for the first time in over a decade moving into an uncertain future (post Afghanistan)...the period from East Timor to Afghanistan has brought massive military spending on Australia's armed forces (mainly land forces) but particularly it's special forces capability and an elevated counter terrorism capacity.

The period between the end of the Vietnam War and the operation in East Timor (some 25 years) was an extremely difficult period for the Australian military, with lack of funding, a growing exodus of highly qualified special forces operators (due to a lack of involvement in real world conflicts). Post Afghanistan could bring back these uncertain conditions for our (Aus) military (including Macedonia's capabilities).

Phoenix, I am unsure how your point is relevant to my two questions aimed at Vangelovski's moronic statement.

Are you suggesting that Macedonians serve in foreign armies to accumulate 'real war' experience which can then be transferred to the Macedonian army?