Smilkovci Lake Killings

[Soldier of Macedon]

.........encouraging us to stand up and beat the shit out of all our enemies (shiptars especially).........

Name the people who have encouraged Macedonians in the republic to beat the shit out of Albanians?

......but none of you had the decency of coming here and joining us in the process..........

Stop making excuses for your own inaction. On the one hand people like you complain that Macedonians in the diaspora don't have a right to express their thoughts about what goes on in Macedonia, on the other, whenever the tension rises people like you bitch and moan about why Macedonians from the diaspora aren't physically there to help. Do you need Macedonians outside of Macedonia to fight your battles and demonstrate on your behalf, even though you outnumber ethnic Albanians 3 to 1? Surely not all Macedonians in Macedonia are as useless as you are.

If someone is to blame for the poor response to the protests it's the Macedonians from Skopje - they live in the proximity and should have responded better to the calls for mass protests.

So intead of doing the opposite, you follow the lead of those you're blaming. No wonder Macedonia is where she is with ovci like you.

Take me for example - it would take me like 1,5-2 hours to get to Skopje in the first place,not having in mind that I could lose my job for not showing up to work,thus making it even harder for me to make ends meet with just one typical Macedonian salary and a two-and-a-half year old daughter to feed.

Does everybody in Macedonia work around the clock, 7 days a week?

Many Macedonians were killed,wounded and traumatized during 2001 when the shit hit the fan.Where were you guys then?

Many of my relatives from Bitola and Prilep fought for Macedonia in 2001, my first cousin was shot and wounded in Tetovo, so spare me the rant. Macedonians didn't lose because they were numerically inferior and needed people from the diaspora to swell their ranks, they lost because their government betrayed them - and people like you did jack shit about it, except complain about why others weren't there to do what they should've been doing themselves.

[DraganOfStip]

I was raising money for the Macedonians there back in 2001. But they are gone now. They have been been replaced with cardboard cutouts of Macedonians.

Please don't call 2001 a war. That title only started 3 years ago. If it was a war, Macedonia lost.

Same old tiresome bullshit from RoMacedonians.

Dragan, do you deny your government has let you down? Did you vote for them?

Albanians gather and protest that they have been victimised because some Albanians have been arrested.

Macedonians barely gather for the murders.

If it looks, smells and tastes like shit ... it is shit Dragan.

No need to be defensive Dragan. How can I help you stand up for your rights as a Macedonian in Macedonia? If I go there, will you stand up with me? Do you need me to be there before you stand up for your own rights? What are you actually telling me?

Perhaps you are happy with the situation in Macedonia. Therefore you resent the Macedonian Diaspora telling you that it is shit. I don't know anymore. If I lived there, I would be thinking that being Macedonian is a hindrance nowadays.

War or conflict,it doesn't matter.We lost anyway.Now shiptars have even bigger rights here than in their native Albania,but yet they are again not satisfied.No,I didn't vote for the government,I didn't vote for no one.And as I said,if there's someone to blame for the poor response to the protests it's the Macedonians from Skopje,not the ones outside of it.The protests were basically held in their backyards and yet they stayed home snacking some cuski and frenki in front of the TV watching the protests since their outside window is blocked by a big branch of a tree and they don't have a good view of it.On the other hand,shiptars have nothing better to do than rally,they don't go to work to feed their family of 10-15 since they're all drug smugglers,weapons and people traffickers and they have their pockets full.Opposite of that,we have to work our asses off for a symbolic salary that barely enables us to make it through the month.Guess you guys don't have that problem do you?So it's quite easy to spit at your fellow countrymen from the other side of the world.Talk is cheap,it's ACTIONS that count.In 2001 my father,uncle and 2 of my cousins volunteered in the army.I'm just dying to see how many of you patriots will do the same if shit hits the fan again.And Vangelovski,please don't give me that 'Macedonians fighting for Australia in Iraq,Afghanistan etc etc' bullshit,like Volk said - Macedonians are obligated to defend Macedonia,why would you fight for another country?

[DraganOfStip]

Name the people who have encouraged Macedonians in the republic to beat the shit out of Albanians?

Stop making excuses for your own inaction. On the one hand people like you complain that Macedonians in the diaspora don't have a right to express their thoughts about what goes on in Macedonia, on the other, whenever the tension rises people like you bitch and moan about why Macedonians from the diaspora aren't physically there to help. Do you need Macedonians outside of Macedonia to fight your battles and demonstrate on your behalf, even though you outnumber ethnic Albanians 3 to 1? Surely not all Macedonians in Macedonia are as useless as you are.

So intead of doing the opposite, you follow the lead of those you're blaming. No wonder Macedonia is where she is with ovci like you.

Does everybody in Macedonia work around the clock, 7 days a week?

Many of my relatives from Bitola and Prilep fought for Macedonia in 2001, my first cousin was shot and wounded in Tetovo, so spare me the rant. Macedonians didn't lose because they were numerically inferior and needed people from the diaspora to swell their ranks, they lost because their government betrayed them - and people like you did jack shit about it, except complain about why others weren't there to do what they should've been doing themselves.

I don't know about you guys over there,but here we have to WORK OUR ASSES OFF for 150-200 euros of salary.So yes,most of us even work on Sundays and holidays just to provide.I have a little girl to feed and I barely make it through the month with 2 salaries and I'm certainly not gonna risk my job for a protest where even the locals failed to attend.Our governments betray us all the time,nothing new there.I don't agree with it's policy as well.Call me ovca,useless,or whatever the hell you want,but the full stomach of my little girl is my first priority.I'd suggest you come to Macedonia and see how we live before making your own conclusions.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Opposite of that,we have to work our asses off for a symbolic salary that barely enables us to make it through the month.Guess you guys don't have that problem do you?

When our community has held Macedonian demonstrations here in Australia there were several people who weren't living 'great' or who didn't have well paying jobs. They still came out in numbers to spend a few hours in support of the Macedonian Cause. But your low wage is the excuse for doing nothing. Well done. Go back to your local kafic and engage in some more charshiski muabeti. I am sure you're happy to spend a few hours there rather than make the trip to Skopje.

I'm certainly not gonna risk my job for a protest where even the locals failed to attend

And you want Macedonians to fly thousands of kms across the world to do what you won't do, even though you live in the country. You're an inspiration for us all.

I'd suggest you come to Macedonia and see how we live before making your own conclusions.

I've been there many times. You make it sound like you're living in some remote African village that doesn't have water. You're not. But, by all means, keep complaining that life in Macedonia sucks, and keep doing nothing about it.

[DraganOfStip]

When our community has held Macedonian demonstrations here in Australia there were several people who weren't living 'great' or who had well paying jobs. They still came out in numbers to spend a few hours in support of the Macedonian Cause. But your low wage is the excuse for doing nothing. Well done. Go back to your local kafic and engage in some more charshiski muabeti. I am sure you're happy to spend a few hours there rather than make the trip to Skopje.

And you want Macedonians to fly thousands of kms across the world to do what you won't do, even though you live in the country. You're an inspiration for us all.

I've been there many times. You make it sound like you're living in some remote African village that doesn't have water. You're not. But, by all means, keep complaining that life in Macedonia sucks, and keep doing nothing about it.

I don't have the time to have a cup of macchiato in a kafic to do charsiski muabeti SoM,I have a family to feed.I work tomorrow (Sunday) as well.I worked during Christmas,MayDay,and Easter as well.I work 'like a black guy' for my family,and the majority of us here have shitty wages so sorry if we don't risk our jobs for the protest.If we did maybe you Diaspora guys would pin a medal on our chest and tap us on the shoulder saying 'well done brothers'?How's that gonna feed my little girl?If you guys don't have that kind of a problem over there then good for you.

[Vangelovski]

I was referring to the posts where you Diaspora people are so full of love and caring towards your homeland,encouraging us to stand up and beat the shit out of all our enemies (shiptars especially) but none of you had the decency of coming here and joining us in the process.like I said,it's easy to be patriotic from the other side of the world.I bet when you saw the footage back in 2001 you were all like 'way to go boys,come on,let them have some,if I were there I'd show those scumbags...'Well,why weren't you?If someone is to blame for the poor response to the protests it's the Macedonians from Skopje - they live in the proximity and should have responded better to the calls for mass protests.Take me for example - it would take me like 1,5-2 hours to get to Skopje in the first place,not having in mind that I could lose my job for not showing up to work,thus making it even harder for me to make ends meet with just one typical Macedonian salary and a two-and-a-half year old daughter to feed.Was that a well elaborated answer for you?And I'll ask again:if need be will you fly home to stand in the front lines with a rifle or criticize us on the web from your home abroad?Many Macedonians were killed,wounded and traumatized during 2001 when the shit hit the fan.Where were you guys then?

You didn't answer any of my questions that directly related to your BS statements.

Will you come to Australia to deal with our issues for us while we come to Macedonia? Or do you feel you don't have to do anything for yourself and its all someone else's responsibility?

Tell us more about our 'carefree' lives, I'm interested to know.

Is it a requirement that we deal with all of your problems before we can offer our hard-earned experience? If so, will you know come and deal with all of our problems here seeing as you offered us some of your own advice?

[Vangelovski]

Please oh please explain to me how how these Macedonians are defending Australia by helping occupy countries like Iraq and Afghanistan?

"We" (Macedonians) should be obliged to defend our nation, not go off occupying nations to make the US Corporations even richer by serving in the Australian "defense" force.

Volk, you're talking sh*t as usual.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't have the time to have a cup of macchiato in a kafic to do charsiski muabeti SoM,I have a family to feed.I work tomorrow (Sunday) as well.I worked during Christmas,MayDay,and Easter as well.

I don't doubt you work hard for low wages, but I doubt you can't spare a few hours to gather some of the other people in your village or town and go to Skopje to protest, or even to Stip or Bitola or wherever you really are in Macedonia. But instead of making some noise, you choose to whinge about other people pointing out the obvious just because they happen to be from the diaspora.

I work 'like a black guy'.................

Refrain from such racist characterisations. It does nobody any favours.

.........sorry if we don't risk our jobs for the protest.

Don't apologise to me, apologise to your daughter for doing nothing about the creation of this Albanianised country where Macedonians can't even go fishing at a lake without fearing for their lives. That is the type of Macedonia she will grow up in because people like you choose to do nothing.

If we did maybe you Diaspora guys would pin a medal on our chest and tap us on the shoulder saying 'well done brothers'?

We will always be brothers. But you want a medal for standing up for your people and country, for your own rights as a Macedonian? What the hell is wrong with you? Is the slave mentality that embedded in you?

[Vangelovski]

And Vangelovski,please don't give me that 'Macedonians fighting for Australia in Iraq,Afghanistan etc etc' bullshit,like Volk said - Macedonians are obligated to defend Macedonia,why would you fight for another country?

You may not have realised it, but Australia is our country. We are citizens of this state. It is our obligation to defend our country (Australia) of which we are citizens and quite frankly, we don't need anyone else to do it for us. We don't need to bitch and moan as to why no one is coming in from overseas to defend us from foreign enemies and domestic terrorists.

YOU on the other hand are a citizen of Macedonia and live there and its YOUR obligation to defend Macedonia. The real question is, not what I have done for Macedonia, but what have YOU done? I have offered advice which I have learnt the hard way to make YOUR job easier. But YOU don't even want to do YOUR job, let alone take some friendly advice.

You say your family was in the 2001 conflict. So what? So was mine. And now what? Does that somehow excuse YOU from doing what YOU are obligated to do? Shall I know start bitching and moaning as to why YOU don't come to Australia and help defend our country? Why is it that everyone must come to Macedonia and help YOU? Why can't YOU do YOUR own job?

Here's a novel idea - why don't YOU organise a protest in Stip and save YOURSELF time and money while actually doing something semi-useful? There's no reason to go to Skopje, as last I heard Stip was still in Macedonia.

[Vangelovski]

One more thing, the next person who gives me this BS about being "too poor" to stand up for their own rights is going to get a real hiding. Throughout history, no matter how bad their conditions were, millions have done what it takes to win their own freedom. A modern example, (one of many) are the Palestinians who are in much worse economic circumstances that any Macedonian could ever even imagine and I have never seen any mutterings from them about being "too poor" to stand up for their own rights.

What a pathetic excuse for a person - "too poor" to stand up for their own rights!?!? What lunacy is this country coming to!?

[Jankovska]

Don't worry everyone,very soon it will kick off in Macedonia, then and only then we will be able to see who the real patriots are and who is ready to die for their country. Simples

[Risto the Great]

Dragan, I understand clearly. You will do nothing whatsoever.
You will wait for us in the Diaspora to do it for you. But how can you be sure we will act in your best interests? I wouldn't gamble it, I'd do it for myself if I was you.

I think protests are usually quite silly. I'm sure you could think of something far more useful to do. The problem is that nobody in Macedonia has thought of (and done) anything for a long time. The "drug dealing" Albanians seem to think (and do) a whole lot more. Why is this the case?

[Tomche Makedonche]

If this is the case, and I don't know if it is (but one of the articles posted by United MKD suggests it may be), then its a gross violation of human rights and a breakdown (if it ever existed in the first place) of the rule of law - regardless of what ethnicity the suspects are.

I sincerely hope my suspicions are proven wrong in this instance, for if they turn out to be correct, the RoM government have utterly failed the Macedonians yet again.

For those who fail to see any validity from this view, consider this, if it turns out that in response to the death of 5 innocent Macedonians, RoM knowingly arrested a large number of Albanians, including women, who were actually innocent of the crime they were charged for (this is the key component, if the point of the investigation was to locate and charge offenders for illegally harbouring weapons, then that is another story, but in this instance they were investigated, charged and being brought to trial for murdering 5 innocent people), then ask yourself what does this action do to the Integrity of the investigation?, does it jeopardise it?, does it jeopardise the entire case and therefore diminish any chance for the family of the victims receiving justice for their loss?, does it set a precedent which validates Albanian protests any time an Albanian(s) is charged with a crime against Macedonian?, what does it do to the perception of the Macedonian Judicial system and police force?, basically what I'm trying to say here is in the end WHO'S AGENDA DO YOU THINK THIS TYPE OF ACTION SERVES BEST?

Seeking justice to be served for the execution of 5 innocent people should not be the Macedonian concern for this matter, for it is a human concern, everyone should want murderers of innocent people/kids brought to justice regardless of nationality/ethnos. The Macedonian concern is the manner in which Macedonians go about ensuring justice is achieved for Macedonians, especially if it's as a result of Albanian (an opponent's) aggression.

In relation to the Albanian protests, I believe I've expressed my views regarding this previously, so to re-quote:
"Quite simply the display and resulting actions of a people under a progressive and well implemented psychological conditioning, designed and carried out with absolute resolve by its leaders, who (through the adequate attainment and provision of resources, and the ability to adapt and evolve methods in accordance with the altering environment and political landscape) are amply prepared to capitalise on opportunity or weakness whenever presented, for the ultimate function of achieving their primary strategic goal, a goal which has been agreed to encompass and serve best the interests of their people in sustaining and protecting the longevity of their liberties.

Hating the player or the team who's strategy on playing the game surpasses your own teams strategy serves little purpose. Any success achieved in the pursuit of a competitors objective which would be considered detrimental to the interests of the citizens or territory of RoM, is a direct result of the Leaders and Citizens of RoM failing to have their “shit together” to anticipate, counteract and incapacitate their opponents moves and motives before coming into fruition."

For the Macedonians argueing, remember that we are all here for the same reason, lets not loose sight of it.

and finally
Brianakis: Below link, Post #2469, closing paragraphs

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4837&page=247

[EgejskaMakedonia]

One more thing, the next person who gives me this BS about being "too poor" to stand up for their own rights is going to get a real hiding. Throughout history, no matter how bad their conditions were, millions have done what it takes to win their own freedom. A modern example, (one of many) are the Palestinians who are in much worse economic circumstances that any Macedonian could ever even imagine and I have never seen any mutterings from them about being "too poor" to stand up for their own rights.

What a pathetic excuse for a person - "too poor" to stand up for their own rights!?!? What lunacy is this country coming to!?

That may be so, but a collective movement is required for any form of change to take place.

The obvious problem with that, given the economic circumstances highlighted by Dragan is that few are willing to stick their neck out and be the first to initiate such action. There is evidently an underlying sense of fear, that if one speaks out and nobody follows, the future of their family is potentially put at risk with no change to the situation in Macedonia.

This links back to a lack of leadership. Nobody is seemingly willing to put their lives on hold and risk everything to save Macedonia. Leaders are needed, and in due time the people will follow. We see this human trait of 'passing the buck' in a range of circumstances. For example, if somebody is seriously injured in the city, it is inevitable that a number of bystanders will do absolutely nothing, assuming that the next person will assist or call an ambulance.

Furthermore, we often see good Samaritans helping victims of crime, yet become victims themselves when the perpetrators turn on them. Although these scenarios are on a significantly smaller scale than that of protecting a nation, in each instance the people are morally obliged to act but don't for fear of suffering personal detriment.

Many of us wouldn't exit our comfort zone in the diaspora and take up arms in Macedonia, but we are equally capable of assisting in other ways. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the Macedonians residing in the Republic to protect their land and rights.

The only factor missing is leadership.

[Vangelovski]

That may be so, but a collective movement is required for any form of change to take place.

The obvious problem with that, given the economic circumstances highlighted by Dragan is that few are willing to stick their neck out and be the first to initiate such action. There is evidently an underlying sense of fear, that if one speaks out and nobody follows, the future of their family is potentially put at risk with no change to the situation in Macedonia.

This links back to a lack of leadership. Nobody is seemingly willing to put their lives on hold and risk everything to save Macedonia. Leaders are needed, and in due time the people will follow. We see this human trait of 'passing the buck' in a range of circumstances. For example, if somebody is seriously injured in the city, it is inevitable that a number of bystanders will do absolutely nothing, assuming that the next person will assist or call an ambulance.

Furthermore, we often see good Samaritans helping victims of crime, yet become victims themselves when the perpetrators turn on them. Although these scenarios are on a significantly smaller scale than that of protecting a nation, in each instance the people are morally obliged to act but don't for fear of suffering personal detriment.

Many of us wouldn't exit our comfort zone in the diaspora and take up arms in Macedonia, but we are equally capable of assisting in other ways. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the Macedonians residing in the Republic to protect their land and rights.

The only factor missing is leadership.

It only seems to be a Macedonian problem. You're going much broader than what Dragan suggested. I think the "we're too poor" argument is extremely rare to find. But I would be interested to see if there are other instances and how it was overcome, if at all.