Miroslav Grčev - The Traitor

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski your so funny, PLEASE prove to the whole forum how and why the Macedonian government is a dictatorship, PLEASE

Village idiot, see my post immediately above yours. You should prehaps read what's been posted. You should also then take a look at how dictatorships manipulate their own elections (yes, they have them) and compare that to what happens in Macedonia. Then you can explain why you think its not a dictatorship.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

EM, Macedonia is managed by a small group of political elites - in fact, they are the same clowns that have been around since "independence" in 1991.

Some reasons as to why Macedonia is NOT a democratic state:

1. It is yet to hold a national election that has not been tainted by mass electoral fraud, including forcing citizens to become party members in order to gain state employment and then forcing them to vote for the party if they want to keep their jobs. Some other classic techniques include rounding up whole villages and forcing them to vote for the party by controlling the supply of voting slips by marking them and using a number of scams including the ‘train ride’.

2. It is yet to hold a referendum that has not been manipulated by the governing party, for example, the law on local decentralisation.

3. It is yet to implement consultative mechanisms for public participation in the development of public policy and legislation. Current practice in Macedonia is for the Government to enact a law and then announce it to the public. In democracies, government’s consult extensively with the public, drafting and redrafting laws to meet the needs and interests of the widest range of society as possible before they are enacted in Parliament.

There are many more, but it gets very complicated and peanut brains like Volk will clutter the thread with illinformed and stupid commentary attempting to deny them.

That's practically the same in any nation Tom. There will always be a group of individuals behind the scenes who ultimately influence government decisions in one way or another. Wall Street, for example, ultimately steer government policy in the USA in some areas of government. Similarly, powerful lobby groups can also have a large impact on the decisions and actions executed by a government. Some may perceive this as a dictatorship, as the same groups are essentially controlling the system. Others may observe this scenario as slightly decentralised, as the government is being influenced by groups and people beyond those who are elected by the people.

That's slightly off-topic, however my point is that you wouldn't consider the US as a dictatorship, despite the same faces pulling the strings behind the scenes. It's far easier to target a developing nation like Macedonia and label it as a dictatorship, for reasons you have highlighted above. When one thinks of a dictatorship, a few infamous leaders spring to mind, namely Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. These people called the shots and ruled with an iron fist. From how I see it, the Macedonian government is definitely soft and almost afraid of taking control.

Macedonia is by no means an established democracy, but I fail to see how it is even close to a dictatorship. I consider the Albanian community as somewhat dictators, but that is largely as a result of a soft government.

[Vangelovski]

EM,

What's "practically the same in any nation" - mass electoral fraud? No public consultation/participation? If you're living in a dictatorship, yes, not in a democracy. You need to get out more - at least look up the Australian Parliament House website every now and then and see how you can get involved and put your views forward.

Show me the mass electoral fraud or lack of public participation in the US. Tell my why these do not constitute a dictatorship in Macedonia.

Do not ever confuse genuine lobbying with undemocratic activities undertaken by the state, or Macedonian vassalship with regard to their relationship with outsiders and their ruthlessness with regard to those they rule over.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

No, by that I mean that even nations that hold the beacon of democracy are not free from unjust external influences. Lobbying is fine and a means of influencing the government, but that is different to individuals behind the scenes ultimately calling the shots. This may happen in Macedonia as you mentioned earlier, but even democracies such as the US are prone to it. Perhaps it is simply conducted in a more subtle way.

Since independence in 1991, you cannot expect Macedonia to be a fully developed democracy some 20 years later. Some nations have taken centuries to develop and sustain a functional and effective democratic society. The Balkans are plagued with corruption and shifty business, so again, these things will occur. But even still, I struggle to see how the current Macedonian system resembles a dictatorship in any shape or form.

[Vangelovski]

But even still, I struggle to see how the current Macedonian system resembles a dictatorship in any shape or form.

Reread the examples I gave you and compare them to the methods used in more well-known dictatorships. Or you can explain why you think they do not constitute the characteristics of a dictatorship?

I don't see any small group 'calling the shots' in any established democracy. Perhaps you can provide an example.

[Risto the Great]

This thread seems to be generating a bit of passion.

If Macedonia is a democracy in every sense of the word, surely the people (voters) are the only ones to blame for Macedonia's present status as a quasi State.

I hope the DPmNE spies don't come to kill me for saying it ... but I don't like DPmNE, they are messing around with our identity in a fashion not unlike the SDSm impostors of yesteryear. I think there is room for a new political party. If a new political party is unable to be established in Macedonia, then refer to your vote on this thread and have another think. Or else ring up your relatives in Macedonia and tell them they are sheep who are happy to bleat away in their self-imposed jail.

[Risto the Great]

I didn't know this guy designed the ventilator.
It doesn't detract from the message nor should the person who drew the picture be blamed for a nation adopting it under duress and also whilst not under duress.

[George S.]

i reckon if someone invited macedonia to go with the 16 ray sun they would say no they'd stay with the ventilator.There is so much apathy from within that there is no room to reconcile with the past & then to be able to move on.

[Daniel the Great]

Characteristics of a dictatorship.

- one-party rule.

The Macedonian government is a multi-party system, so most parties get a say in things not just one.

The leader/dictator can never be voted out of office.

There is elections in Macedonia, and leaders do eventually get kicked out of office, unlike the dictatorship in North Korea.

- executions without trial or with a mock trial, for political offences.

This characteristic does not apply to the Macedonian government. Execution is never an option in Macedonia.

- the nationalization or expropriation of private property.

The Macedonian government does not against the will of it's citizens takeover as owners of private property.

- censorship.

No suppression of speech by the Macedonian government as far as im aware.

- Many dictators have held the formal title of "President", but wield extraordinary powers.

The Macedonian president does not have extraordinary powers as for example Gadafi did.

Out of six examples of dictatorship, not one can be said to be a trait of the Macedonian government system. This is why i voted NO. Macedonia is not a dictatorship, it is silly to go that far in calling it as such. Don't Get me wrong, the Macedonian government is fucked up, but not enough to call it a dictatorship.

[Vangelovski]

Characteristics of a dictatorship.

- one-party rule.

The Macedonian government is a multi-party system, so most parties get a say in things not just one.

The leader/dictator can never be voted out of office.

There is elections in Macedonia, and leaders do eventually get kicked out of office, unlike the dictatorship in North Korea.

- executions without trial or with a mock trial, for political offences.

This characteristic does not apply to the Macedonian government. Execution is never an option in Macedonia.

- the nationalization or expropriation of private property.

The Macedonian government does not against the will of it's citizens takeover as owners of private property.

- censorship.

No suppression of speech by the Macedonian government as far as im aware.

- Many dictators have held the formal title of "President", but wield extraordinary powers.

The Macedonian president does not have extraordinary powers as for example Gadafi did.

Out of six examples of dictatorship, not one can be said to be a trait of the Macedonian government system. This is why i voted NO. Macedonia is not a dictatorship, it is silly to go that far in calling it as such. Don't Get me wrong, the Macedonian government is fucked up, but not enough to call it a dictatorship.

DtG, do you know what the real characteristic of a dictatorship is? Its when sovereignty does not stem from the citizens. That is exactly the case in Macedonia. Elections are fraudulent and there is no public participation in governance. Effectively, the body of citizens is cut out of the decision-making process. The rest of those points are peripheral (some of which are not even specific to dictatorships and some of which Macedonia scores on).

[Daniel the Great]

DtG, do you know what the real characteristic of a dictatorship is? Its when sovereignty does not stem from the citizens.

That's funny, because the man who called the Macedonian government "a quiet and soft dictatorship" is the same man who designed a flag that was chosen against the will of the Macedonian people, what kind of sovereignty for the Macedonian citizens is that? I don't think that we should be agreeing with Miroslav Grcev on this one.

[Daniel the Great]

(some of which are not even specific to dictatorships and some of which Macedonia scores on).

Which one of those points i mentioned does Macedonia score on?

[Risto the Great]

That's funny, because the man who called the Macedonian government "a quiet and soft dictatorship" is the same man who designed a flag that was chosen against the will of the Macedonian people, what kind of sovereignty for the Macedonian citizens is that? I don't think that we should be agreeing with Miroslav Grcev on this one.

DtG, if the flag was chosen against the will of the Macedonian people, they have long since legitimised it by supporting the flag ever since.

I could design a flag but it doesn't mean anybody ought to embrace it.

I actually agree with Grcev because it is more than clear that Macedonia's citizens are far from free to control their own destiny.

If you ignore the words "soft dictatorship" do you think more people would agree with his assessment of Macedonia under the DPmNE regime?

[Vangelovski]

That's funny, because the man who called the Macedonian government "a quiet and soft dictatorship" is the same man who designed a flag that was chosen against the will of the Macedonian people, what kind of sovereignty for the Macedonian citizens is that? I don't think that we should be agreeing with Miroslav Grcev on this one.

DtG, you're making the same claim as Volk. He was unable to substantiate them and, as always, has left with his tail between his legs. Do you care to explain HOW the first matter effects his analysis of Macedonia's political system? Just because he designed the ventilator, that does not mean he does not have the intellectual capacity to determine what kind of political system Macedonia has.

[Vangelovski]

DtG,

Macedonia may not execute its citizens, but it certainly has held mock trials and its judiciary is under political control, meaning its not independent as it should be.

Secondly, there is a great deal of media censorship in Macedonia and the fact that alternate views with regard to the IA and FA are virtually never reported on is a case in point. What's worse, various media outlets are overtly aligned with either DPMNE or SDSM.

Thirdly, while they may not hold extraordinary powers on paper, Macedonia's leader (depending on their own strength of personality - Gligorov as President, Gruevski as Prime Minister) does in fact wield extraordinary power. In fact, they generally disregard the Constitution completely and revert to agreements made with vassal overlords.