Jovan Vraniskovski - The Traitor

[Akzion]

Frank, George S., Bill77, Julie
Why don't you provide some answers to the questions of post#16 instead?

[makedonche]

Akzion

Makedonce,
I don’t know why you’re mad at me or Vraniskovski, and nope… your answer was not clear. Was that story true? Was that legal? Who did it? Do you condemn it?
By coincidence, the whole world is discussing today a similar case, the non-extradition of Battisti by Brazil to Italy. You will find that the international public opinion is quite different with these two cases, and that Vraniskovski’s imprisonments are not… bought on a global level, and your obsession costs you on human rights ratings.

Akzion I'm not mad at you ....... yet - you will know when I am. My answer was perfectly clear, I'll clarify it for you again since you are having comprehension difficulties, and then we'll go back to the remainder of your questions.

My original post:-

The time for "peoples justice" is rapidly approaching, how much longer do governments/eu think that the ordinary citizen is going to tolerate this sort of judicial prostitution, on top of bribery/corruption and the increased cost of living along with decreased living standards?

Last sentence of your post referring to my comments:-

Is this true? Is this what Makedonche demands as "people's justice"? I understand you're with the other Church, but why all the fuz?

My response to your post:-

Akzion
Your time here is rapidly reaching it's use by date, if you are going to quote me then read what I wrote and quote me accurately, you have been afforded equal rights and respect here so use it wisely because once you lose my respect I'm not giving you any more and I will seek to have you removed immediately! Now for you I will explain it in simple terms, "people's justice" is when people have lost faith in their system of governance and law and begin to take matters into their own hands and use whatever resources they have available in a matter befitting the circumstances. So that you may understand this a little easier read the daily newspapers in Athens regarding riots/strikes and so forth - this is an example of people's justice, they have had enough of beaurocracy and government failures to address their basic concerns.
Do you get it now?

Akzion please direct me to the part of my quote where I "demand" people's justice, to quote you, and then we'll take it one step at a time so that I may enlighten you in the simplest way possible! Remember one step at a time!

[DirtyCodingHabitz]

I watched a great Documentary not long ago a very powerful film. Can not remember its name but I am sure if you look hard enough you can find something out there.

I said facts. It would be nice if you could find them since you have already seen them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

...the other Church

There is only one Macedonian Orthodox Church, and your insinuation of the MOC as the 'other' church is considered to be an insult and deliberate breach of rule #5 of this forum.

(5) Negating the identity, language and culture of the Macedonian people by deliberate avoidance of the terms Macedonia, Macedonian and Macedonians, or by any other means, is not permitted.

It won't be entertained. Do it again, and you will disappear from here, probably for the 10th time.

......and they are schismatic and canonical respectively......or maybe inversely depending on where you belong.

So what? Every Orthodox church in the Balkans has been at one time or another, including your new church of Greece that was basically nurtured into life by German Protestants.

I'm also Macedonian.

You are not a Macedonian. You are a Greek individual from the geographic region of Macedonia that is now located within Greek borders. You are as Macedonian as the next Albanian that lives in the geographical region of Macedonia.

[Serdarot]

... and… orthodox, canonical, schismatic and autocephalous are all Greek words.

ok, for idiots again...

Before all, remember this, you wannabe Macedonian:

- people could speak (and write) and had languages (and scripts/"alfabets") before your pathetic artificial nation was created less than 200 years ago!

to paint it for you:

the Inkas and the Mayans and the Azteki and the Olmeci are NOT Spanish!

And the Spanish people are NOT Inkas, Mayas, Olmecas, Aztekas, nor the British are American Natives or Indians

you are not PROTO

and couse PROTO = PRAOTO
the FIRST is the RIGHT
logic that you are also not ORTO, or simply:

ORTO is NOT "greek"

Couse PROTO = PRAOTO = ORTO (sorry, need to have IQ over 50 to understand this )

modern "greek" is mixure of several languages, mostly Macedonian and Turkish. (including the words you dared to title as "greek")

i know you can not swalow this, but i dont give a f.u.c.k about it.

I'm also Macedonian...

here some more painfull truth for you:

You, the modern "greeks", gave to the world nothing special, or better said, you made only unnumbered crimes on the Balkans!

your priests blessed the turkish cannons before they were going to kill the descents of THOSE WHO WERE THE FIRST CHRISTIANS IN EUROPE, and you dare to speak about Christianity and Churches?

You dare to call yourself Christian?

MY ancestors fought to free Macedonia from the Turks, while yours were probably receiving Turkish gold to betray Macedonian Komiti!

MY grandfathers fought to free Macedonia from all fascist-nazi bastards, and we know good you had fascist regime in your pathetic "kingdom"! (and also fascist-oriented hunta later )

We know that big part of the anti-fascist fighters on the theritory of todays "Greece" were MACEDONIANS, while the rest was mixure of Albanians, Vlachs and other ethnicities, not to forget that south of Olymp, you simply LOVED the Germans!

YOUR ancestors killed Macedonians, they burned innocent and unarmed Macedonians (woman, children and old people included), and you DARE to call yourself Macedonian?

Your ancestors mother tongue was probably albanian, vlach, turkish or macedonian, but MY Macedonian, not some mystic "greek macedonian", couse "greek macedonian" DOES NOT EXIST.

Either you are Macedonian, or you are not. It is SO Simple!

To repeat it, so you maybe can Understand it:

- there is no such things as greek or bulgar or serb or albanian or "slavo" Macedonian.

Your ancestors learned to speak the "modern greek", a language created for your artificialy created puppet state.

Germany (few german states) and England created your fascist country, they sent you one of their incest bastards to be your king.

And you accepted him.

Same like one other state created by the same puppet masters, who also had for king some german bastard(s) born in incest

In 50 years you will proove the pure "greek" (or vulgar) origin of your german bastard kings!

Are you aware that our ancestors REMEMBER that many of the todays "macedonians" in "greece" are TURKI, MADJIRI!

There are still people who are alive, who knows exactly that those MADJIRI didnt know to speak a single "greek" word!

They spoke TURKISH!

Get off your trip, you are hurting yourself and all other in the region!

[George S.]

Well said serdarot only an idiot won't understand it.These people claim that they are macedonian just for living there geographically.If they only see what their history about how they took macedonia by force & lies.They should be ashamed of themselves for thinking that there is more than one church.The macedonian church is a mother church to all other orthodox churches in europe.Prvoslav means that they were the first to receive the gospel even ahead of the greek church.This shows that you are insulting our religion & have no respect for us.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The macedonian church is a mother church to all other orthodox churches in europe.

George, do you want to explain how you came to this fantastic conclusion?

[George S.]

St kiril & methodius spread the orthodox religion to all the orthodox countries of today in europe.Also st paul came to macedonia because the greeks rejected him so the word prvoslav means the first to receive the gospel.It is well known through
According to the sources in the Acts, Saint Paul, Christ's disciple, began spreading Christianity in Macedonia and elsewhere on the Balkan Peninsula towards the mid 1st century AD. He visited this region on two occasions during his journeys through Europe and Asia. He was followed by Timothy and Silas, who remained in Macedonia after his departure. At that time, as a Roman province Macedonia often changed its borders and its ethnic composition. As a result of the Christianization in the first three centuries, the Christians in Macedonia at the beginning of the 4th century already had an organised Church with an established ecclesiastical hierarchy, whose bishops regularly participated at the ecumenical councils.


During the reign of the emperor Justinian I (527-565), who came from the village of Tauresium in the Skopje region, a new town was built near the emperor's birthplace, named Justiniana Prima after him. The Metropolitan of Skopje was appointed an autocephalous Archbishop. Cathellian was the first Archbishop of the Archdiocese Justiniana Prima, at the time the third by honour among the local Orthodox Churches, after Rome and Constantinople. The other archbishops were: Benenat, Paul, John I, Leon and the last one John IX, who in 680-81 took part at the Trullo Council in Constantinople.

The work of the holy Apostle Paul and the holy emperor Justinian I was continued by the holy brothers Methodius and Cyril and their disciples Saints Clement and Nahum of Ohrid. In the second half of the 10th century, within the borders of Samuel's state, the autocephalous Ohrid Archdiocese was established with the rank of patriarchate, on the foundations of Justiniana Prima. After the fall of Samuel's state, the Ohrid Archdiocese was reduced to a lower rank of church hierarchy (archbishopric) and it existed as such for eight centuries, until its abolishment in 1767 by the Turkish sultan Mustapha III, and its dioceses were annexed to the Patriarchate of Constantinople. From this moment on Macedonian people made all possible efforts to restore the Archdiocese. Its dioceses were under several jurisdictions of the neighbouring Orthodox Churches and this struggle became particularly fierce in the second part of the 19th and the first part of the 20th century. Convenient conditions for restoration of the independence were created not earlier than during World War II (1941-1945). Right before the end of the war, in 1944, in the village of Gorno Vranovci, an Initiative Board for Organisation of the Macedonian Orthodox Church was formed. In March, 1945, in Skopje, a Resolution to restore the Archdiocese of Ohrid as Macedonian Orthodox Church was made at the First Clergy and Laity Assembly. This decision was submitted to the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church, since before World War II several dioceses in Macedonia were under the United Orthodox Church of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, known later as Serbian Orthodox Church. The Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church did not accept this decision, which resulted in the following actions of the Initiative Board: instead of as an autocephalous, the Board insisted on the Church being recognised as autonomous. This request was also rejected. In 1958, the Second Clergy and Laity Assembly was held in Ohrid and the proposal for restoration of the Ohrid Archdiocese of Saint Clement as a Macedonian Orthodox Church was accepted and Dositheus was appointed the first archbishop.

The Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church agreed with the decisions of the Macedonian Clergy and Laity Assembly in the resolution AS. No 47/1959 and 6/1959, minutes 57 of June 17/4, 1959.

The jurisdiction of the Macedonian Orthodox Church spreads not only throughout Macedonia, but also in the church communities abroad.

According to Article 17 from the Proclamation of Autocephaly, the Macedonian Orthodox Church as an administrative part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is to observe the Holy Scriptures and the Holy tradition, the Canons of the Apostles and the decrees of the ecumenical councils and is to follow them and the Constitution of the Macedonian Orthodox Church.

.The macedonian church may not be a mother church to anyone today but in the past it certainly was one in the long past.

[Serdarot]

George, do you want to explain how you came to this fantastic conclusion?

why fantastic?

You want to say that the Holy Bible lies that Sveti Pavle was invited to Macedonia, and welcomed by Macedonians?

You want to say that Lidia Makedonkata was greek woman?
You want to say that Sveta VelikoMachenica Irina Makedonska was actualy Irina Grchka?

Or we have to take care what we write, not to insult the fascist greeks and their puppetmasters?

[Soldier of Macedon]

why fantastic?

Because it is.

You want to say that the Holy Bible lies that Sveti Pavle was invited to Macedonia, and welcomed by Macedonians?

I want to say that the MOC is not the 'mother church to all other orthodox churches in europe'. Do you disagree?

You want to say that Lidia Makedonkata was greek woman?
You want to say that Sveta VelikoMachenica Irina Makedonska was actualy Irina Grchka?

If you've taken lessons in mind reading, ask for your money back.

Or we have to take care what we write, not to insult the fascist greeks and their puppetmasters?

I could care less about the sensibilities of our detractors where it concerns these issues. I am concerned only with the historical truth and the perception of Macedonians as a whole when individuals make these 'fantastic' comments.

[Soldier of Macedon]

St kiril & methodius spread the orthodox religion to all the orthodox countries of today in europe.

At the time of Cyril and Methodius there was no Orthodox/Catholic divide, so more accurately what they did do was spread the word of the gospel and through it, literature, to those that spoke Slavic languages. A number of 'nations' in Europe actually received Christianity during the period of time that (east) Rome was ruled by the Macedonian Dynasty.

Also st paul came to macedonia because the greeks rejected him so the word prvoslav means the first to receive the gospel.

It's not 'prvoslav' but 'pravoslav' = 'correct form of worship', 'orthodox faith', etc. Where did you come up with the story with regard to the Greek 'rejection' of St Paul?

[George S.]

Som it's in the bible where the athenians rejected him because they beleived in their nyths & old time gods so there was no place for christianity in them so st paul moved on.Alsosom it's in the bible where the athenians rejected him because they beleived in their nyths & old time gods so there was no place for christianity in them so st paul moved on.Also i'm not even looking at the byzantine contribution of macedonia as the mother church.Thats' not even looking at the byzantine era.

[Serdarot]

SOM, have you ever heard of "rasipan telefon" ?

Of course that MPC, formed in 20th century is not the Mother Church of ALL the Ortodox Churches.

But as the above is corect, it is also corect that the Macedonians were those who PRVI received Slovo Bozje, from an Apostle.

If you know what is rasipan telefon, you would understand also:

Koj PRVO nauchil, nauchil kako PRAVO se slavi Bog, odnosno kako PRAVO se tolkuva slovoto Bozje.

That is why THE MACEDONIAN CHURCH, also in this re-incarnated form as MPC, can and should be concidered as PRIMA, PROTO, ORTO.

[George S.]

Serdarot i have to agree with you on that "rasipan telephon""

[Akzion]

Serdarot,
I agree about Inkas and Mayas, but I can’t see the connection. All people of Latin America were Hispanized to a degree, but in that case you have a great distance and a great amount of time before these people met and interacted. If, for instance, Spain and Mexico would constitute ONE country for four centuries, these people would be sharing more than a language and they might have even become ONE people. Who knows? There’s always an ocean between them.

I wasn’t saying these four words are creation of Modern Greek (they’re not); they have Greek origins and roots (as documented in ancient literature).
Orthodox (orthos= right, correct) (doxa=faith, belief)
Autocephalous (auto=self) (cefali=head)
Schismatic (schizo= to fissure, to tear) (schisma=scission, schism)
Canonical (=normal, orderly) (canon=law, norm, rule)

I usually don’t understand your etymological efforts (besides my low IQ) because you omit the English translation and further explanations. Moreover, you sound amateurish, weirdo, stubborn, you don’t follow Aristotelian logic, or give credible sources; you are anonymous but you seem to have a personal revolutionary theory about languages, etymology and History and that makes you less reliable.
Modern Greek is NOT a mixture of several languages, especially Turkish one; specifically these four words are not Turkish. As for Macedonian language, I don’t get if this time you mean ancient or modern.

I’m not sure if a Greek priest literally blessed the Turkish cannons, but the (miraculous) effect of such an act is always exaggerated and has become a cliché in this forum. I don’t call myself a Christian (I’m an atheist).

MY ancestors fought to free Macedonia from the Turks, while yours were probably receiving Turkish gold to betray Macedonian Komiti! MY grandfathers fought to free Macedonia from all fascist-nazi bastards, and we know good you had fascist regime in your pathetic "kingdom"! (and also fascist-oriented hunta later )

Are you referring to your family or generally your compatriots? I’d be interested to hear any family story.

My grandmother was born in 1890. Her parents were shopkeepers in Kozani and they both died (from natural causes) in the next years. Their four children were actually raised by the oldest daughter. Thus due to age my family didn’t have any contribution in the historical events in Macedonia of early 1900s, at least as I’m aware of. (Another branch of my family was more active in Thrace).

My father was 17 when we lost the War and occupation started (in 1941). Since, he was an only child and an orphan, he got a job in the railways in Thessaloniki and one fine day the train took them to… Germany (actually close to the borders of occupied France and Switzerland). They worked for 3 years at repairing railroads, since they were always targeted and bombarded. It seems that due to his age, he was not aware of the dangers of his work, neither tried to escape. He also never saw himself as a war slave or a collaborator. He says they were generally respected, paid and fed better than the average German citizens (yet their money didn’t have exchange value in Greece, so he couldn’t really help his mother). During his permissions in Greece, he was approached by EPON but didn’t join (as he told me) for the hilarious reason that… EPON sounded like EON. (That’s indicative of the depth of political knowledge and information they had back then).

After the end of War, he returned to Greece and was drafted in the Army (during Civil War). He didn’t fight in the major final battles, but he certainly took part in operations against rebels (including probably your grant-father). He was anti-royal (coming from a pro-Venizelos family), supported the Centre Union (George Papandreou Sr) and later after dictatorship George Mavros and more actively Andreas Papandreou. Yet, he was always slightly anti-communist.

It’s not correct that North Greece was more pro-Resistance while South Greece was pro-German (as you imply). The term komitazi, while, as I understand, simply means committee person, had received monstrous connotations in Greece, due to the atrocities they committed since early 1900s.

YOUR ancestors killed Macedonians, they burned innocent and unarmed Macedonians (woman, children and old people included), and you DARE to call yourself Macedonian?

Uh, yes I do. Both sides, Greeks and Bulgarians, had their share of atrocities. If I understand correctly, you are calling yourself a non-Greek, non-Bulgarian Macedonian and thus your nation takes a suitable distance from all activities in the area. That would sound great… to a Scandinavian. But, as I told you, I’m a Macedonian; I’m not ignorant of what happened here and I don’t buy the “eternal victim” card, not even for Civil War where we… generally support the same side. I may like and respect the Communists, but that does not mean I’m blinded to their crimes and mistakes, their stupidity and unrealistic estimations, the ambiguity of their Cause, their blind submission to Soviet Union, their flirt with treason and foreign powers, or to what would have happened if they had won.

I am aware of your opinions and definitions on my and your mother language, my and your nationality etc, I just don’t share them. You don’t have to shout or repeat yourself 50 times.

There are no such things as greek or bulgar or serb or albanian or "slavo" Macedonian.

I don’t get what you mean here