Jovan Vraniskovski - The Traitor

[George S.]

The greek claim that the modern ethnos is pure greek is a BIG lie.THe modern greek nation is built from a number of ethnos Albanien,vlachs,Avranites,alavs,macedonians,turks, gypsies.
Many of your primeministers were albanien.Your idea of an ethnos is if you can speak greek you are greek,if you behave like a greek you are greek,If you change your name to greek you are greek.Akzion stop trolling & come clean todays ethnos of a greek is hardly applicable.

[Serdarot]

Serdarot,
I agree about Inkas and Mayas, but I can’t see the connection.

oh my dear, you can not see the connection?

Just like the spanish, the portuguese and the british people have no contrubution to the Civilizations that existed before Columbo "discovered" America... (except they destroed one of them)...

You dont have anything to do with the rise and the achievments of the Ancient Macedonians.

i would dare to say you also dont have much in common with the Ancient Greeks

Man, most of the nowadays greeks are albanians, turks, vlachs, macedonians, gipsies, armenians etc.

it has to be repeated to you not 50, but 5 milion times, couse you know it, but you deny it

Modern Greek is NOT a mixture of several languages, especially Turkish one;

lol

the "izgara" example was very good, but for those with more that 50 IQ

I’m not sure if a Greek priest literally blessed the Turkish cannons, but the (miraculous) effect of such an act is always exaggerated and has become a cliché in this forum. I don’t call myself a Christian (I’m an atheist).

cliche? u r not sure? oh my dear akzion, du kanst viel besser als das, oder?

hier, lesen, dann denken, dann schreiben

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2246

Are you referring to your family or generally your compatriots? I’d be interested to hear any family story.

like most of us, part of my ancestors are from aegean Macedonia. i referred to my family. the Father of my Father was born in the last decade of the 19th century.
He fought against the turks, but he never said bad word for them.

In other hand, he fought under greek flag, but he simply went crazy each time someone mentioned greeks or greece. I dont know if he hated your nation and state, but i am sure he didn´t loved you.

My other grandfather was born too late to fight against the turks, but he also fought against those who occupied and tortured Macedonia and the Macedonians.
He also didn´t liked the greeks.

Couse your andarts were real bastards, cowards and criminals.

My grandmother was born in 1890....

waste my grandfather didnt met your grandmother, you would have some Macedonian blood in your venes today, so you could have the right to concider yourself Makedon

Uh, yes I do. Both sides, Greeks and Bulgarians, had their share of atrocities.

lol

it is the greek stupidity coming on surface again. both my grandfathers fought AGAINST the Bulgarians, and neither they, nor their fathers and grandfathers concidered themself bulgarians.

But, as I told you, I’m a Macedonian;

no , you are not you are something (vlach?) who think he is greek, and in same time Macedonian.

I don’t buy the “eternal victim” card,

i dont concider us as a "eternal victim". for example, some Macedonians made crimes against the serbs, and i am sorry and ashamed of that.

sure some macedonians were real bastards, but lucky for my ego, they fought for the greeks, or were turkish spies

Kote of Rulja being one of those bastards
the kodosh (spy) Ligushev being another such bastard

even for Civil War where we… generally support the same side. I may like and respect the Communists, but that does not mean I’m blinded to their crimes and mistakes, their stupidity and unrealistic estimations, the ambiguity of their Cause, their blind submission to Soviet Union, their flirt with treason and foreign powers, or to what would have happened if they had won.

I am aware of your opinions and definitions on my and your mother language, my and your nationality etc, I just don’t share them. You don’t have to shout or repeat yourself 50 times.

than stop repeating 100s of times the greek bs propaganda, and stop coming on this forum

I don’t get what you mean here

there is no

greek-macedonian
bulgar-macedonian
slavo-macedonian
serbo-macedonian

either you are Macedonian, or you are not.

without prefixes and sufixes

[Risto the Great]

Uh, yes I do. Both sides, Greeks and Bulgarians, had their share of atrocities. If I understand correctly, you are calling yourself a non-Greek, non-Bulgarian Macedonian and thus your nation takes a suitable distance from all activities in the area. That would sound great… to a Scandinavian. But, as I told you, I’m a Macedonian; I’m not ignorant of what happened here and I don’t buy the “eternal victim” card, not even for Civil War where we… generally support the same side. I may like and respect the Communists, but that does not mean I’m blinded to their crimes and mistakes, their stupidity and unrealistic estimations, the ambiguity of their Cause, their blind submission to Soviet Union, their flirt with treason and foreign powers, or to what would have happened if they had won.

Sorry Akzion,
I have missed some of these discussions.
Are you Macedonian or are you Greek? You say you are Macedonian above but that sounds ridiculous without a descriptor for Greeks. I will simply assume you are Greek. If you are not Greek, please let me know.

Macedonians in Greek occupied Macedonia cannot take any distance from what occurred in that region of Macedonia. Macedonians have fought for their own independence over many centuries. Macedonians fought for the liberation of Macedonia in what is now called the Greek civil war. Do you seriously think they fought for communism more so than liberation? I have no idea what Greeks fought for but I can vouch for the Macedonians. They fought for the team that was promising them liberation. They were duped.

How do you feel about the Royalist's blind submission to USA and their allies? How has the blind submission to the world powers impacted upon the Greek psyche over the last 200 years? I would think Greeks are actually far more the "eternal victims" than they would care to admit.

[Serdarot]

Risto, i hope he will at least explain what he want to say with "both sides, greeks and bulgarians" #

i hope with "bulgarians" he means the Bulgars of Bulgaria, the Nazi-servants, german allies, occupators of Macedonia and part of Thrace (i know it is not the case, he means our ancestors, he IS so ignorant not to understand that they - our ancestors, did not cincidered themself as bulgarians)

and if we talk about blind submission...

do we have always to remind them that their King was german bastard?

after the war to free the country from the germans, they wanted the mentioned german bastard to be re-installed as a king!

that is their spirit of democracy ^^

[Soldier of Macedon]

SOM, have you ever heard of "rasipan telefon" ?

What are you implying?

.........the Macedonians were those who PRVI received Slovo Bozje, from an Apostle.

That doesn't mean that the Macedonian Church is the mother-church to the rest. Let's stick to the facts.

Both sides, Greeks and Bulgarians, had their share of atrocities. If I understand correctly, you are calling yourself a non-Greek, non-Bulgarian Macedonian and thus your nation takes a suitable distance from all activities in the area.

No, you haven't understood correctly. Most of these so-called 'Greeks' and 'Bulgars' in Macedonia were ethnic Macedonians, not ethnic Greeks or ethnic Bulgars. The Macedonians take no distance from Macedonia, everything that happened there concerns my people. There is a plethora of reading material here regarding this fact. Don't waste our time re-educating you for the 100th time on our truth and position, and don't come here trying to dilute the Macedonian identity by usurping it for yourself, as a Greek; which is what you really are.

[Serdarot]

What are you implying?

If you know what is rasipan telefon, you would understand also:

Koj PRVO nauchil, nauchil kako PRAVO se slavi Bog, odnosno kako PRAVO se tolkuva slovoto Bozje.

Prvoto e Pravoto, PROTO is ORTO.

i can not exlain better than that. that is what i am implying

[makedonche]

Akzion

Akzion I'm not mad at you ....... yet - you will know when I am. My answer was perfectly clear, I'll clarify it for you again since you are having comprehension difficulties, and then we'll go back to the remainder of your questions.

My original post:-

Last sentence of your post referring to my comments:-

My response to your post:-


Akzion please direct me to the part of my quote where I "demand" people's justice, to quote you, and then we'll take it one step at a time so that I may enlighten you in the simplest way possible! Remember one step at a time!

Akzion
I notice you haven't bothered to reply to my post despite me taking the time to simplify it for you!
How much longer do I need to wait?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Just a FYI, I heard Stefan on the radio the other day saying that the MOC will never deal with Vraniskovski again, in response to a question relating to the SOC.

Here is something about Vraniskovski from Al Sat Television, where he says that we should rename ourselves to Slav Macedonian.

http://sitel.com.mk/video/makedonija/po-crkvata-vranishkovski-sega-za-pari-go-prodava-i-identitetot

[makedonche]

Akzion
I notice you haven't bothered to reply to my post despite me taking the time to simplify it for you!
How much longer do I need to wait?

Akzion
No need to reply any longer, I achieved what I set out to do and that is to expose you for what you really are!
You fail to understand that by changing or adding "demand" to my initial comments, you changed the entire meaning and direction of the post. Take a moment to reflect on the impact this has on people reading this thread and your credibility! Also take a moment to ask yourself that if your historians have done the same thing what impact that would have had on the history that they wrote? Thanks for allowing me to show the sort of person you are to the rest of the MTO, and in future you might want to start taking the truth a lot more seriously and give it the attention it deserves - not just your version of the truth!

[Makedonetz]

Akzion

You claim to be greek macedonian

OD KADI SI?

Kako Se Vikash

Zboruvate Makedonski?

[Akzion]

There is only one Macedonian Orthodox Church, and your insinuation of the MOC as the 'other' church is considered to be an insult and deliberate breach of rule #5 of this forum.

(5) Negating the identity, language and culture of the Macedonian people by deliberate avoidance of the terms Macedonia, Macedonian and Macedonians, or by any other means, is not permitted.

Well, when I wrote it I thought there were two rival Churches (or at least one and a half). It seems this new Church has no followers and exists only in papers?
You’re not accusing me of… blasphemy now, are you? Don’t tell me you turned religious.
If so, you have a lot of nerve standing by your pitiful human forum regulations AND support a Church that breaks the… regulations of our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and doesn’t listen to our All-Holy and Most Eminent Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, the most beloved and earnestly-cherished brother in Christ the God and concelebrant of our Humility, Lord Vartholomaeos, …that nice man who can give interviews where he reads his answers from a paper (because, I guess, he could prophesy the questions).
Repeeeeeent! Repent I say, and return to the path of righteousness. (You too, Julie).

It won't be entertained. Do it again, and you will disappear from here, probably for the 10th time.

I don’t believe it’s the 10th time. On a side note: The last time you banned me, you decided to ban my IP address. Since I didn’t have a static address (nobody has in Greece), you banned about (if I’m not wrong) 60,000 Greek IP addresses. You may not be aware of it, but when an IP address is banned in this forum the internet user cannot… read the forum (not just log in and post). If that’s OK with you, leave it as it is. If that was not your intention you should lift the ban, because you harm other readers or possible members, not me. Censorship and barriers just don’t work effectively in our days, not even in China.
Why isn’t Vodenka posting anymore? Maybe she was affected by the ban, maybe it’s because she lately became famous in Greece. Who knows?

So what? Every Orthodox church in the Balkans has been at one time or another, including your new church of Greece that was basically nurtured into life by German Protestants.

Actually, the Church was already in life. It is possible that Ottoman Empire hadn’t recognized the Greek state. What’s with the German Protestants? The only thing I know is that (during the Bavarian period) some tried to change (westernize) the chants but failed since the flock booed their novelties. (Another rivalry between two sides of idiots).

You are not a Macedonian.

You are a Greek individual from the geographic region of Macedonia that is now located within Greek borders. You are as Macedonian as the next Albanian that lives in the geographical region of Macedonia.

Oops… That’s a fast change. I thought my people would be a major component in an independent Macedonian State (in 1913). The last time I remember you defining this Macedonian People, your criteria were purely geographical, and Muslims were included too. By the way, given the content of this thread, what Church would that state have and what language? And who would be the Bishop of Kastoria?


makedonche,
It meant I had nothing much to say. Your justifications didn’t persuade me, it only seems you folded back. Still, we can not debate on what your opinion is. You clarify it, or even modify it and its over and accepted. You can now proceed to the questions about the essence of this story.

[Akzion]

Your idea of an ethnos is if you can speak greek you are greek, if you behave like a greek you are greek, if you change your name to greek you are greek.

Well, not exactly but you’re close. If a non-Greek learns to speak Greek, breaths Greek conscience, or changes his name to a Greek one, he’s on the path of being Hellenised. It happens all the time, so does the opposite. Many Greeks that immigrate to USA, will forget their language, shorten and Americanize their name and start to feel MORE American than Greek. After a few generations and intermarriages their descendants may not even remember they partly come from Greece.

oh my dear, you can not see the connection?
Just like the spanish, the portuguese and the british people have no contrubution to the Civilizations that existed before Columbo "discovered" America...(except they destroed one of them)...

I misunderstood you. I thought you meant “Mexicans just speak Spanish; they are not Spanish”. Now you say something totally different and I still cannot see how you mean that Modern Greeks descent from the ones that destroyed the Ancient Greeks.

You dont have anything to do with the rise and the achievments of the Ancient Macedonians.

By “You” you refer to Modern Greeks? Which are these achievements? Who has something to do with them?

the "izgara" example was very good, but for those with more that 50 IQ

What’s the izgara example?

cliche? ur not sure? oh my dear akzion, du kanst viel besser als das, oder?

hier, lesen, dann denken, dann schreiben

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2246

I have found the captions for almost all of these pictures. I will probably post them there.

He fought against the turks, but he never said bad word for them. In other hand, he fought under greek flag, but he simply went crazy each time someone mentioned greeks or greece. I dont know if he hated your nation and state, but i am sure he didn´t loved you.

So, he was drafted under the Greek Army and fought (not very enthusiastically) against Turks and/or Bulgarians. He was probably singing “One, two, three, four, what are we fighting for?”. More details (if you don’t mind)?

My other grandfather was born too late to fight against the turks, but he also fought against those who occupied and tortured Macedonia and the Macedonians.
He also didn´t liked the greeks. Couse your andarts were real bastards, cowards and criminals.

We mostly use the term andartes for communists (during Resistance or Civil War) and secondarily for right wing insurgents of Resistance. Which do you mean this time? Who did he fight along or against?

it is the greek stupidity coming on surface again. both my grandfathers fought AGAINST the Bulgarians, and neither they, nor their fathers and grandfathers concidered themself bulgarians.

That was a frequent argument but it wasn’t always the case. And it wouldn’t be a sin either way. Simple country people were pressured from all sides at gun point to take side. Where did you grandfathers live (towns, villages)? Were their families patriarchist or exarchist?

no , you are not you are something (vlach?) who think he is greek, and in same time Macedonian.

Yes, I’m… something. And you’re… something else.

there is no

greek-macedonian
bulgar-macedonian
slavo-macedonian
serbo-macedonian

either you are Macedonian, or you are not.

without prefixes and suffixes

So, how do you draw the line between a Macedonian and a Bulgarian in Macedonia? Or a Bulgarian outside Macedonia? You often imply that the Bulgarians are Macedonians but they just don’t know it. I wonder what they have to say.

[Risto the Great]

If so, you have a lot of nerve standing by your pitiful human forum regulations AND support a Church that breaks the… regulations of our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and doesn’t listen to our All-Holy and Most Eminent Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, the most beloved and earnestly-cherished brother in Christ the God and concelebrant of our Humility, Lord Vartholomaeos, …that nice man who can give interviews where he reads his answers from a paper (because, I guess, he could prophesy the questions).
Repeeeeeent! Repent I say, and return to the path of righteousness. (You too, Julie).

Don't worry, the Greek orthodox church often breaks with the regulations of the Patriarch. Especially when it tries to usurp the Macedonian jurisdiction from the Patriarch. It can't be a deal breaker.

[Risto the Great]

So, how do you draw the line between a Macedonian and a Bulgarian in Macedonia? Or a Bulgarian outside Macedonia? You often imply that the Bulgarians are Macedonians but they just don’t know it. I wonder what they have to say.

A Bulgarian in Macedonia is either confused or a guest. I have been calling Bulgarians as Asian Macedonians lately. Tatars that looked to the West for life lessons.

What do you call a Prosfiga in Greece? Oh thats it ... a Macedonian.

[makedonche]

Akzion

makedonche,
It meant I had nothing much to say. Your justifications didn’t persuade me, it only seems you folded back. Still, we can not debate on what your opinion is. You clarify it, or even modify it and its over and accepted. You can now proceed to the questions about the essence of this story.

The essence of this story is as follows:

On November 17, 2010 Bishop Jovan Vraniskovski was arrested at the Kalotina checkpoint at the Bulgarian-Serbian border over an arrest warrant issued by Interpol for an effective sentence passed by the Macedonian court.

Sofia. A judge panel with Sofia Court of Appeals Tuesday sat on Bishop Jovan Vraniskovski’s appeal against his extradition to Macedonia.
Bishop Jovan Vraniskovski, head of the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric, will not be extradited to Macedonia, as decided by Sofia Court of Appeal.

My comments relating to the essence of this story were:

The time for "peoples justice" is rapidly approaching, how much longer do governments/eu think that the ordinary citizen is going to tolerate this sort of judicial prostitution, on top of bribery/corruption and the increased cost of living along with decreased living standards?

Your response to my comments was:

Is this true? Is this what Makedonche demands as "people's justice"? I understand you're with the other Church, but why all the fuz?

My response to your comments was:

Akzion
Your time here is rapidly reaching it's use by date, if you are going to quote me then read what I wrote and quote me accurately, you have been afforded equal rights and respect here so use it wisely because once you lose my respect I'm not giving you any more and I will seek to have you removed immediately! Now for you I will explain it in simple terms, "people's justice" is when people have lost faith in their system of governance and law and begin to take matters into their own hands and use whatever resources they have available in a matter befitting the circumstances. So that you may understand this a little easier read the daily newspapers in Athens regarding riots/strikes and so forth - this is an example of people's justice, they have had enough of beaurocracy and government failures to address their basic concerns.
Do you get it now?

Your response was:

Makedonce,
I don’t know why you’re mad at me or Vraniskovski, and nope… your answer was not clear. Was that story true? Was that legal? Who did it? Do you condemn it?
By coincidence, the whole world is discussing today a similar case, the non-extradition of Battisti by Brazil to Italy. You will find that the international public opinion is quite different with these two cases, and that Vraniskovski’s imprisonments are not… bought on a global level, and your obsession costs you on human rights ratings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_V...onal_Reactions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Battisti_(1954)

My respose to that was:

Akzion

Quote:
Makedonce,
I don’t know why you’re mad at me or Vraniskovski, and nope… your answer was not clear. Was that story true? Was that legal? Who did it? Do you condemn it?
By coincidence, the whole world is discussing today a similar case, the non-extradition of Battisti by Brazil to Italy. You will find that the international public opinion is quite different with these two cases, and that Vraniskovski’s imprisonments are not… bought on a global level, and your obsession costs you on human rights ratings.

Akzion I'm not mad at you ....... yet - you will know when I am. My answer was perfectly clear, I'll clarify it for you again since you are having comprehension difficulties, and then we'll go back to the remainder of your questions.

My original post:-

Quote:
The time for "peoples justice" is rapidly approaching, how much longer do governments/eu think that the ordinary citizen is going to tolerate this sort of judicial prostitution, on top of bribery/corruption and the increased cost of living along with decreased living standards?

Last sentence of your post referring to my comments:-

Quote:
Is this true? Is this what Makedonche demands as "people's justice"? I understand you're with the other Church, but why all the fuz?

My response to your post:-

Quote:
Akzion
Your time here is rapidly reaching it's use by date, if you are going to quote me then read what I wrote and quote me accurately, you have been afforded equal rights and respect here so use it wisely because once you lose my respect I'm not giving you any more and I will seek to have you removed immediately! Now for you I will explain it in simple terms, "people's justice" is when people have lost faith in their system of governance and law and begin to take matters into their own hands and use whatever resources they have available in a matter befitting the circumstances. So that you may understand this a little easier read the daily newspapers in Athens regarding riots/strikes and so forth - this is an example of people's justice, they have had enough of beaurocracy and government failures to address their basic concerns.
Do you get it now?

Akzion please direct me to the part of my quote where I "demand" people's justice, to quote you, and then we'll take it one step at a time so that I may enlighten you in the simplest way possible! Remember one step at a time!

And....

Quote:
Originally Posted by makedonche
Akzion

Akzion I'm not mad at you ....... yet - you will know when I am. My answer was perfectly clear, I'll clarify it for you again since you are having comprehension difficulties, and then we'll go back to the remainder of your questions.

My original post:-

Last sentence of your post referring to my comments:-

My response to your post:-


Akzion please direct me to the part of my quote where I "demand" people's justice, to quote you, and then we'll take it one step at a time so that I may enlighten you in the simplest way possible! Remember one step at a time!

Akzion
I notice you haven't bothered to reply to my post despite me taking the time to simplify it for you!
How much longer do I need to wait?

And......

Quote:
Originally Posted by makedonche
Akzion
I notice you haven't bothered to reply to my post despite me taking the time to simplify it for you!
How much longer do I need to wait?

Akzion
No need to reply any longer, I achieved what I set out to do and that is to expose you for what you really are!
You fail to understand that by changing or adding "demand" to my initial comments, you changed the entire meaning and direction of the post. Take a moment to reflect on the impact this has on people reading this thread and your credibility! Also take a moment to ask yourself that if your historians have done the same thing what impact that would have had on the history that they wrote? Thanks for allowing me to show the sort of person you are to the rest of the MTO, and in future you might want to start taking the truth a lot more seriously and give it the attention it deserves - not just your version of the truth!

Where have I strayed from the essence of the story? My observation relating to people's justice is based on what is currently happening in various parts of the world, I even gave you an example of it in your own back yard but you either didn't get it or your playing dumb - either way it shows you for what you really are.
What astounds me is that you don't even understand the implications of miss-quoting someone or adding an additional word which changes the entire context of the comment ("demand" people's justice) - which is a trademark of you and your people. FYI nobody but the "people" can demand "people's justice".
Judging by your responses you imply that it's ok for Vranikovski to break the law, be issued extradition proceedings for a warrant served by interpol and be set free by the Sofia court without having to return to Republic of Macedonia to face charges/defend himself. If this is even remotely correct about your understanding the nyou truly are one sorry individual who does not deserve the respect and tolerance he has been shown on this forum!