Neos Kosmos against Pande Aslakov, President of Ovcharani

[Redsun]

Poligiros - My point is that Macedonia is not a homogenous ethnic group from the information I have read.

Where did you read this?

Poligiros - Many many groups have settled in the region from 300BC.

Can you name these groups?

I just want to know the source of this propaganda.

[George S.]

poliguris leave the judgement to us we are better judges.I tried to tell you don't have exclusive right to use the name Macedonia.By virtue of the partition in the Balkan wars of 1913.It was mere occupation by force on the pretext they were liberating it from the ottomans.Before that the greek govt NEVER set foot in the Aegean area.For your information there are no indigenous greeks in Aegean Macedonia.Only indigenous Macedonians.You have no right to use the name Macedonian.Your claim you had affinity with the land doesn't carry weight at best you are only greek ,a questionable one at that.You are not Macedonian.What right have you got when your govt has gained Macedonia by a landgrab & propaganda of lies.Come on if you are educated the logic doesn't flow.You are not Macedonian.THats why I doubt your greekness as you claim idigenuety to Macedonia??You are really a foreigner in the Aegean area.You don't even know your real roots.Don't deny in alexanders time Macedonian was spoken,you know if you admit that you would have to give back the landgrab of 1913 greeces biggest fear is that.You have chosen to be ignorant which means you don't know.Your response is typically that Macedonians & greeks were the same race.THis is bs they were not.They did not speak greek only as your govt claims.So poliguiris You are totally wrong.I can annihiliate you in a private conversation.YOu only believe what your govt wants you to believe.NO you can't be Macedonian yet you can't be a greek what are you doing in the Aegean??Your relatives are not indigenous to the Aegean they came from someplace else.??So your claim to being Macedonian is totally invalid.THe name is reserved for the real Macedonians not some gyp[sie thieves who stole our land in 1913.
So poliguris if you are not indigenous to the land then you are not Macedonian.Macedonians were the majority prior to 1913 so its pointless to discuss anything as the Macedonia population was displaced by ethnic cleansing so your argument doesn't carry any weight.

[Poligiros]

Poligiros - My point is that Macedonia is not a homogenous ethnic group from the information I have read.

Where did you read this?

Poligiros - Many many groups have settled in the region from 300BC.

Can you name these groups?

I just want to know the source of this propaganda.

Hi Redsun, from memory took a quick look at wiki. I know its a generic source, but I am not sure if its propaganda?

After the league of Corinth was established, I believe the Roman period was occurred around 150BC. In 600AD the Slavic, Avar invasions occurred. Obviously the Ottoman empire took hold in the 1500s? I also believe from previous information that some remnants of Celtic, Germanic tribes settled in the area throughout the centuries. Obviously there would be Arvanites, Vlach and southern Greeks that moved to the area throughout the centuries.

Once again, I don't believe the intent of my posting here is to discuss history that you guys do not adhere to. My main purpose is to tell you that members of my Hellenic family lines have been in southern Aegean Macedonia for centuries. Until I do a DNA test, I will be able to further establish the length of time.

regards,

[Poligiros]

poliguris leave the judgement to us we are better judges.I tried to tell you don't have exclusive right to use the name Macedonia.By virtue of the partition in the Balkan wars of 1913.It was mere occupation by force on the pretext they were liberating it from the ottomans.Before that the greek govt NEVER set foot in the Aegean area.For your information there are no indigenous greeks in Aegean Macedonia.Only indigenous Macedonians.You have no right to use the name Macedonian.Your claim you had affinity with the land doesn't carry weight at best you are only greek ,a questionable one at that.You are not Macedonian.What right have you got when your govt has gained Macedonia by a landgrab & propaganda of lies.Come on if you are educated the logic doesn't flow.You are not Macedonian.THats why I doubt your greekness as you claim idigenuety to Macedonia??You are really a foreigner in the Aegean area.You don't even know your real roots.Don't deny in alexanders time Macedonian was spoken,you know if you admit that you would have to give back the landgrab of 1913 greeces biggest fear is that.You have chosen to be ignorant which means you don't know.Your response is typically that Macedonians & greeks were the same race.THis is bs they were not.They did not speak greek only as your govt claims.So poliguiris You are totally wrong.I can annihiliate you in a private conversation.YOu only believe what your govt wants you to believe.NO you can't be Macedonian yet you can't be a greek what are you doing in the Aegean??Your relatives are not indigenous to the Aegean they came from someplace else.??So your claim to being Macedonian is totally invalid.THe name is reserved for the real Macedonians not some gyp[sie thieves who stole our land in 1913.
So poliguris if you are not indigenous to the land then you are not Macedonian.Macedonians were the majority prior to 1913 so its pointless to discuss anything as the Macedonia population was displaced by ethnic cleansing so your argument doesn't carry any weight.

Hi George,

At least we agree on one thing, neither of us have exclusive right to the name Macedonia, therefore I don't know why it pains you so much to deny me the right?

What are you trying to say??? That my ancestors that have lived in these villages in southern Aegean Macedonia for centuries are gypsy thieves??? For the millionth time, we are not prosfiges. Karamanlides (Greeks from Turkey) arrived in surrounding Halkidiki villages during the population exchanges - are exclusive of our people. My ancestors built our family home, we didn't implement any land grabs or steal anything. Do you think subsequent generations of prosfiges have a right to live there, much like us second and third generation southern European immigrants in Australia?

In conclusion, its obvious that I am not going to change your mind. To prosper you need to remove the harsh Balkan mentality as having historically warped views leads to hatred.

[George S.]

PoliGreece is the one that claims 100% homogeneity.THat is that it says it has all pure greeks.On examination we find there is not much greek population to speak of but Greece is made up of arvantes,albanians vlachs etc etc.So we find Greece is telling lies.
SO PoliYou are going to check your blood dna to see who you are.Ok we'll see what you are,for one thing you are not a Macedonian.
Greece over the years has tried to destroy anything Macedonian & says maCEDONIANS DON'T EXIST.Yet Macedonians do exist & they remind them not only of the atrocities Greece committed on them but the land the greeks took off them.That is why the greek govt fears Macedonia that it says all the skopijans want is to take back their land.Yes it knows that the land they took in 1913 is not theirs.Also it knows the slav Macedonians it calls slavophones or Bulgarians are really MACEDONIANS but prefers to think they aren't there.Think about it they are paranoid,they ridicule the very existence of Macedonia.THe greeks actually think that they destroyed all those years of effort to stamp out all Macedonian consciousness of the Macedonians.The greeks did a lot of things to harm & destroy the Macedonians.
Furthermore the greeks are nothing more than a bunch of bullies ,whingers & whiners.They think the world owes them a living that's why they knocked off that 300 billion euros they never intended to pay it back.Think about it they were thieves when they took Macedonia & are nothing but thieves today stealing the money from the eu.
Poliguris shame on you for supporting your country the greek govt of its actions.Yor dna test is going to prove nothing more than a deranged individual that you are.Remember its the greeks that believe in myths(made up stories) they believe they are like gods assuming other people's identity.Isn't that what you trying to do.
Just because you feel you are doesn't make you one.gooris,
Also check your history & see how many Albanians Greece has had as presidents since 1832,also check your greek flag it was knocked off from the east india company.Check you tube for that.

[Poligiros]

PoliGreece is the one that claims 100% homogeneity.THat is that it says it has all pure greeks.On examination we find there is not much greek population to speak of but Greece is made up of arvantes,albanians vlachs etc etc.So we find Greece is telling lies.
SO PoliYou are going to check your blood dna to see who you are.Ok we'll see what you are,for one thing you are not a Macedonian.
Greece over the years has tried to destroy anything Macedonian & says maCEDONIANS DON'T EXIST.Yet Macedonians do exist & they remind them not only of the atrocities Greece committed on them but the land the greeks took off them.That is why the greek govt fears Macedonia that it says all the skopijans want is to take back their land.Yes it knows that the land they took in 1913 is not theirs.Also it knows the slav Macedonians it calls slavophones or Bulgarians are really MACEDONIANS but prefers to think they aren't there.Think about it they are paranoid,they ridicule the very existence of Macedonia.THe greeks actually think that they destroyed all those years of effort to stamp out all Macedonian consciousness of the Macedonians.The greeks did a lot of things to harm & destroy the Macedonians.
Furthermore the greeks are nothing more than a bunch of bullies ,whingers & whiners.They think the world owes them a living that's why they knocked off that 300 billion euros they never intended to pay it back.Think about it they were thieves when they took Macedonia & are nothing but thieves today stealing the money from the eu.
Poliguris shame on you for supporting your country the greek govt of its actions.Yor dna test is going to prove nothing more than a deranged individual that you are.Remember its the greeks that believe in myths(made up stories) they believe they are like gods assuming other people's identity.Isn't that what you trying to do.
Just because you feel you are doesn't make you one.gooris,
Also check your history & see how many Albanians Greece has had as presidents since 1832,also check your greek flag it was knocked off from the east india company.Check you tube for that.

George,

I hope you don't actually believe most of the insults that are thrown in my direction?

How can you blame the average Greek citizen for the crisis, when it was people in positions of power and financial institutions that extracted and pilfered funds through corruption? It happens in most Balkan countries. The Economic cycle does change, and I am sure financial position will improve.

Once again, I am not sure on why you keep on harping on about 1913? In 1913 my great grandparents where living in their native villages, most likely tending to their goats and sheep ?

My DNA test. I think it will show me that my ancestors arrived from Africa thousands of years ago, like everyone else, and its likely to show that we have been in the region for many centuries if not longer.

As for being deranged, the stats that I have read show about 50,000-100,000 Arvanites in the entire Hellenic republic, a small minority. What about the Hellenes in Southern Albania, official stats show 120,000 Greek minority in Albania, people move throughout time. What about the 10,000+ Hellenes that lived in Bitola in the 1900s, logically groups live cross-culturally.

George, if you want a decent conversation, I am around tomorrow, but please refrain from insults.

[Redsun]

Poligiros –


Hi Redsun, from memory took a quick look at wiki. I know its a generic source, but I am not sure if its propaganda?

After the league of Corinth was established, I believe the Roman period was occurred around 150BC. In 600AD the Slavic, Avar invasions occurred. Obviously the Ottoman empire took hold in the 1500s? I also believe from previous information that some remnants of Celtic, Germanic tribes settled in the area throughout the centuries. Obviously there would be Arvanites, Vlach and southern Greeks that moved to the area throughout the centuries.

Once again, I don't believe the intent of my posting here is to discuss history that you guys do not adhere to. My main purpose is to tell you that members of my Hellenic family lines have been in southern Aegean Macedonia for centuries. Until I do a DNA test, I will be able to further establish the length of time.

regards



Hello Poligiro, everyone uses wiki for a quick reference, so do I. At one point anyone could alter information in the Wikipedia website and anyone could upload information into the site. Usually at the bottom of the wiki page it will supply sources, most times the source pages either don’t load or don’t even have a connection to the information on site… doesn’t matter. I will be using it soon.

Personally I have a problem when I read text because I can’t help but think about the Author’s perspective and how its presence is interwoven throughout the pages. So to get over this problem of mine, I read 3 books on the subject, each one by a different author. I never trust a single source, especially one that can be unreliable. Wikipedia… I will be using it soon for a quick read.

So you don’t think Macedonia is a homogenous group and you’re basing that on a time period from 150BC onwards. You have mentioned many tribes up to the Ottoman Empire and also the southern Greeks. A 2150 year period, this is a massive period of time you do understand many civilizations have perished through time, the Macedonian people have out lived most other people throughout the years 2150 years is quite impressive, you don’t think that unlike other unfortunate civilizations Macedonia kept rebuilding throughout time.

The Celts, did you mean the Gallic invasions of 279BC… Battle of Thermopylae when Delphi was sacked and the Aetolians, Boeotians, Athenian, Phocians and other few tribes including a few Spartans fled there own lands by sea… self exiles. Can you think of any other events of such where people had to leave there own lands? The Macedonians and the Greeks kept their culture.

Now I don’t know if you’re talking about Macedonia Aegean in particular throughout that whole time period or from the size it was from 150BC the first date you mentioned. The Romans divided Macedonia into 4 provinces it was massive do you know how many Macedonians where divided within the four provinces or are you only thinking of Aegean Macedonia? No point in continuing when you can read these things yourself. Macedonians had to live under Roman rule, 300,000 were enslaved many got to live freely, they were not killed off and we had to pay Rome taxes, dead people can’t pay taxes.

Macedonians have lived through this period you mentioned. Is there a single catastrophic event that you can think of to consider Macedonians not a homogenous group? Basing your opinion on such a huge time period is…

Cheers

[George S.]

pli I don't think whilst on this forum you have the right to identify as a Macedonian.Whilst your kind has taken away the Macedonian lands.Renamed toponyms & people ,committed atrocities & genocide on the Macedonian nation.I hope your family didn't commit atrocities as you don't belong in this forum,You show no remorse for what your ancestors did.I don't give a stuff about your dna when my fellow Macedonians don't get basic human rights.If it were true at least you had rights in the Aegean area given to you by the Macedonians living there.You seem very ungreatfull & desire to be a Macedonian Of which you can never be.You don't deserve the self identification right because you didn't or your ancestors never gave the Macedonians any chance.
We have been already insulted by the greeks we are merely claiming our own identity,we have an inalienable right.You haven't by the same token.

[Poligiros]

Poligiros –


Hi Redsun, from memory took a quick look at wiki. I know its a generic source, but I am not sure if its propaganda?

After the league of Corinth was established, I believe the Roman period was occurred around 150BC. In 600AD the Slavic, Avar invasions occurred. Obviously the Ottoman empire took hold in the 1500s? I also believe from previous information that some remnants of Celtic, Germanic tribes settled in the area throughout the centuries. Obviously there would be Arvanites, Vlach and southern Greeks that moved to the area throughout the centuries.

Once again, I don't believe the intent of my posting here is to discuss history that you guys do not adhere to. My main purpose is to tell you that members of my Hellenic family lines have been in southern Aegean Macedonia for centuries. Until I do a DNA test, I will be able to further establish the length of time.

regards



Hello Poligiro, everyone uses wiki for a quick reference, so do I. At one point anyone could alter information in the Wikipedia website and anyone could upload information into the site. Usually at the bottom of the wiki page it will supply sources, most times the source pages either don’t load or don’t even have a connection to the information on site… doesn’t matter. I will be using it soon.

So you don’t think Macedonia is a homogenous group and you’re basing that on a time period from 150BC onwards. You have mentioned many tribes up to the Ottoman Empire and also the southern Greeks. A 2150 year period, this is a massive period of time you do understand many civilizations have perished through time, the Macedonian people have out lived most other people throughout the years 2150 years is quite impressive, you don’t think that unlike other unfortunate civilizations Macedonia kept rebuilding throughout time.

The Celts, did you mean the Gallic invasions of 279BC… Battle of Thermopylae when Delphi was sacked and the Aetolians, Boeotians, Athenian, Phocians and other few tribes including a few Spartans fled there own lands by sea… self exiles. Can you think of any other events of such where people had to leave there own lands? The Macedonians and the Greeks kept their culture.

Now I don’t know if you’re talking about Macedonia Aegean in particular throughout that whole time period or from the size it was from 150BC the first date you mentioned. The Romans divided Macedonia into 4 provinces it was massive do you know how many Macedonians where divided within the four provinces or are you only thinking of Aegean Macedonia?

Macedonians have lived through this period you mentioned. Is there a single catastrophic event that you can think of to consider Macedonians not a homogenous group? Basing your opinion on such a huge time period is…

Cheers

Thanks for your reply Redsun, I generally agree with most of what you have stated. I am only referring to Aegean Macedonia in most of my posts as (from the history that I have read), ancient Macedonia consisted of around 20% of the current Republic's territory (Pelagonia), in addition to Aegean Macedonia, a small part of modern day Bulgaria? I know that Epirus and Thessalia were stradled in the Macedonian empire throughout the times.

I consider my family lines to be remnants of the Byzantine empire that from about 900-1100AD that incorporated the Macedonian dynasty - by geographic location. Do you believe your people were part of the Byzantine empire or a separate Macedonian group?

I cant really think of a catastrophic event that changed the dynamic in Aegean Macedonia, but what I have read about the substantial Avar, Slavic and Magyar invasions from 600AD onwards I am sure that the makeup of the population changed significantly in that period. IMHO the reason why cultures and languages survive is because that culture holds the majority of population hence can absorb and assimilate the immigrant tribes.

Anyway, its obvious by Sir Georges posts, I am not welcome on this forum, so I would like to chat to anyone privately.

Regards.

[George S.]

question for poligiris what happened to all the greeks ,did they vanish into thin air.Hence they used Albanians ,vlachs etc to prop up Greece.There are no greeks left in Greece real ones what happened to them???
Poligiris whats this you calling me sir George.If you stop talking bs maybe we might show you some respect you have to show the same.If I came to your home id have to show respect or id be out.The same thing is on the forum.So you behave yourself and stop threatening me by asking to discuss bs topics privately.WE didn't say you are not welcome just mind your p& q's is that too much to ask.We just want honest answers to questions.ok Poligiris we want real honest answers not some drummed up propaganda from the greek govt how they taught in schools to hate skopijans.
That's why we are on guard & on the offensive because we think you are here to check us out.In other words spying.You know the penalty for spying.Is a pair of concrete shoes.So show some honesty & tell us the truth as you see it personally.& no bs,any wrong move &pow.On the other hand who knows we may even get to like you?There's no need to talk privately get it out of your chest on this forum.

[Dejan]

The only 'hellenes' in Bitola are the ones that cross the border to do their grocery shopping lol

[Poligiros]

question for poligiris what happened to all the greeks ,did they vanish into thin air.Hence they used Albanians ,vlachs etc to prop up Greece.There are no greeks left in Greece real ones what happened to them???
Poligiris whats this you calling me sir George.If you stop talking bs maybe we might show you some respect you have to show the same.If I came to your home id have to show respect or id be out.The same thing is on the forum.So you behave yourself and stop threatening me by asking to discuss bs topics privately.WE didn't say you are not welcome just mind your p& q's is that too much to ask.We just want honest answers to questions.ok Poligiris we want real honest answers not some drummed up propaganda from the greek govt how they taught in schools to hate skopijans.
That's why we are on guard & on the offensive because we think you are here to check us out.In other words spying.You know the penalty for spying.Is a pair of concrete shoes.So show some honesty & tell us the truth as you see it personally.& no bs,any wrong move &pow.On the other hand who knows we may even get to like you?There's no need to talk privately get it out of your chest on this forum.

George,

thanks for your nicer approach. I had the feeling that you didn't want me around hence limiting discussion whilst being 100% honest. I am not sure what constitutes a wrong move?

As for the Greeks, reading the modern history of Greece by Richard Clogg (Cambridge), there has been a constant preponderance of Hellenic culture and continuum Greek speaking groups throughout the ages. Minor group such as Arvanites settled in Greece but were a smaller number and integrated, hence Greek language and culture surviving. Even under Ottoman times, Clogg states that the Hellenes encountered superior treatment under the sultans rather than venetian rulers.

I don't deny that there aren't minorities such as Vlach, muslim etc but most of these have intermarried and feel Hellenic in the 21st century.

Spying??? Why would I use my real credential , I have established an account with work email address. My main criteria here is to point out the native Hellenes of Aegean Macedonia that are neither prosfiges or feel affinity to the people of the Republic. I only learn from reading reputable sources such as Cambridge and Oxford.

I think you have it wrong about how Greeks really feel about your people? I visit Aegean Macedonia and see your people enjoying themselves in Halkidiki beaches, shopping in Thessaloniki and enjoying food and culture. My local friends, whilst not agreeing with views on history generally speak nicely of your people and make friends with them.

As for your animosity towards Greeks, if I was part of the republic, I would be aligning myself politically to the Hellenes rather than polarizing the demographic. I have close Albanian friends, mainly Christian who are similar in attitude to Europeans. Meeting muslim Albanians are generally aggressive and expansionist in their views, especially in attitude towards your country and peoples legitimacy to the Balkans. The Hellenic republic are not the threat and I think you guys know it.

Therefore our people have more in common, the Macedonian sun shines for everybody.

[Vangelovski]

Poligiros,

This is your last warning - tyring to get around calling us Macedonians by using terms such as "your people" will not be tolerated. I already told you that the only acceptable terminology for us is "Macedonians". This is the Greek threat to Macedonia - negation of our identity.

[George S.]

now you're talking,the ones you talk of are actually Macedonians from rom enjoying the beaches etc,spending their money there & apparently most of your tourism comes from rom people.In return we hear their cars are defaced with deragotory words written etc.
We hear that you prefer & are seeing a kind of a restoration to the Macedonians.Why not if an injustice has been done.I said in a thread that there were in excess of 800 k +Albanians in Greece,whilst that might be a minority to you that's quite a sizable population.They seem to be everywhere even your presidents some of them have been of Albanian stock.I can tell you Greece has been slow to move to recognize the times.That is why people have taken a class action agains't Greece.Of course what Greece has done is merely take something from Macedonian people that doesn't belong to them.Of course in a court of law people will win.Greece would be worried if the Macedonians ause legal action enmasse that would be a catastrophe I'm sure it doesn't want that.People thought they could hide the past .Greece would rather remember what happened 2000 years ago & ignore what happened 100 years ago.Well that's all coming to haunt Greece.We know its kind of short on money & it doesn't want to say its sorry for what it did let alone make full restitution with the Macedonian people.
Poliguris I hope you follow my drift of where I'm coming from the greek govt committed grave injustices on the Macedonian people.Poligiuris you seem to be echoing your govt in its stance of negating the Macedonian identity.There is a real reason if there are no Macedonians then they want to appropriate anything Macedonian to the point they want a mnnopoly.Frankly it doesn't want Macedonians to use their own name is its a reminder of them to the greeks of what atrocities they have committed & grave injustices.So don't negate our name is our name.WE value it deeply so more care is needed that's why I said show some respect & we will show you respect.

[Poligiros]

Poligiros,

This is your last warning - tyring to get around calling us Macedonians by using terms such as "your people" will not be tolerated. I already told you that the only acceptable terminology for us is "Macedonians". This is the Greek threat to Macedonia - negation of our identity.

Vangelovski,

Look at the context that I use "your people" I am using it to define Macedonians of your type when discussing ethnic groups in Aegean Macedonia.

You cant be serious here??