Scandal: UEFA Fines Dinamo Zagreb 20,000 for Waving Macedonian Flag

[Daskalot]

My experiences with Croatians are extremely different than yours Phoenix. It may well be a geographical thing but the Croatians (I know) tend to view Macedonians as brothers in arms against the Serbs.

This is also the experience I have had with Croats, they are well versed on the topic of Macedonia.

[George S.]

Would it have been better to have been waving the nazi swastikas??These morons are just about like nazis.Fancy fining spectators that's just crazy.My experience with croats is that they recognize us as macedonians.They know that we are our own worst enemy & that we don't represent ourselves very good.Hence the greeks riding roughshot allover us.

[Soldier of Macedon]

At the end of the day, personal experiences aside (good or bad), the Croatians and Macedonians are not enemies, nor have they ever been. I don't see the point in trying to create an enemy of them now where there are no grounds for one, especially when it is based on the behaviour of a few individuals from both sides. If the Croatian government does turn out to be a two-faced one like the Slovenian government, then let us lay blame where it belongs - with their governments, and not their people. I remain optimistic about the ongoing friendship between Macedonians and Croatians. I haven't met too many Slovenes in my life but from experience I have found them to be friendly also, but probably a little distant from 'Balkanites' in some regards.

At the end of the day, the Croats are now stupidly being fined for promoting Macedonia at a sporting event, they deserve our thanks.

[makedonche]

My experience with Croats has been fairly positive bar a few imbeciles who quote dubious sources when referring to Macedonians. In business and personal dealings I have found them honourable, as long as there is something in it for them otherwise they are not too interested. It helps if you dislike serbs when you talk to them! Overall more friendly and respectful of our rights and they don't have a soft spot for the Grci.

[Phoenix]

My experience with Croats has been fairly positive bar a few imbeciles who quote dubious sources when referring to Macedonians. In business and personal dealings I have found them honourable, as long as there is something in it for them otherwise they are not too interested. It helps if you dislike serbs when you talk to them! Overall more friendly and respectful of our rights and they don't have a soft spot for the Grci.

Lol...sounds like a few disclaimers and fine print with your judgement...
Anyway, I'm sure the truth like most things resides somewhere in the middle.

I still recommend caution when there's an overehelming desire to blow too much sunshine up their proverbials...

[indigen]

lol

Now seriously, if they were Croats waving the flag, its more than likely that it was more an anti Greek act rather than pro Macedonian. A gesture to stick it up the opposition. But thats not to say the Croats do not have a soft spot for us Macedonians.

If he was a Macedonian, then it was also a case of stick it up the Greeks together with a Pro Macedonian action. If it was the ventilator, well i don't think the reasons behind it were what Indigen suggests. Its more than likely he is a Macedonian that is ill-informed of the true meaning of that flag.

What ever nationality he was, you can't say his intentions weren't good. He just needs to be woken up a bit.

Bill77, I always try (and occasionally forget) to never make any concrete statements (claims) of fact on matters that I am not certain of and thus I make no such claim above! Therefore you should not make a big issue of anything that is suggested as a "possibility" or it "may" be this or that!!! That being said, I still say that the possibilities for underhand play should always be considered in politics (and business, amongst other areas of social organisation)!

Following, if it has not been posted before, is some concrete info on which flag was used (it was the Ventilator):

Utrinski: "....Неверојатно. УЕФА го казнила Динамо со 20.000 евра поради петардите, фрлањето предмети на теренот и - македонското знаме на трибините во Загреб на натпреварот со грчки ПАОК од Лигата на Европа во декември?! И тоа не старото со шеснаесеткракото сонце, туку актуелниот државен симбол на Македонија.

Од кога тоа официјално знаме на членка на Обединети нации е непожелно на фудбалските стадиони низ Европа? Во случајов, навистина, станува збор за мечеви меѓу клубови, а не репрезентации, но ако тоа беше забрането, зошто УЕФА не го санкционира присуството на српски знамиња во првата средба меѓу Динамо и ПАОК во Солун? Зошто му прости на Интер за тоа што Пандев беше обвиткан со македонско знаме кога во Мадрид ги примаше почестите од челниците на УЕФА за освоената Лига на шампионите? Неговиот пример тогаш го следеа и Камерунецот Ето, Србинот Станковиќ, Бразилецот Мајкон итн.

Не е невообичаено ниту на првенствени средби навивачите на ваков начин да изразуваат поддршка за својот миленик меѓу фудбалерите. Фановите на Нирнберг, на пример, во чест на Саша Ќириќ покрија цела трибина со македонското знаме, и тоа со сонцето од Кутлеш!...."

http://utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=49FBCBE84BF9E9489CFA57E299A577BF

For fair use only.

[makedonche]

Lol...sounds like a few disclaimers and fine print with your judgement...
Anyway, I'm sure the truth like most things resides somewhere in the middle.

I still recommend caution when there's an overehelming desire to blow too much sunshine up their proverbials...

Phoenix
Hahaha.....the balanced approach mate! But all from true occurrences, the most disappointing experience was from an educated one that started quoting the "Slav Migration" theory.... very quickly put that theory to the test and the death knell - much to the shock of his so called educated knowledge and sources!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Indigen, perhaps the Croatians' Macedonian friends can educate them on the correct symbol, but it is the gesture that counts.

[Bill77]

Bill77, I always try (and occasionally forget) to never make any concrete statements (claims) of fact on matters that I am not certain of and thus I make no such claim above! Therefore you should not make a big issue of anything that is suggested as a "possibility" or it "may" be this or that!!! That being said, I still say that the possibilities for underhand play should always be considered in politics (and business, amongst other areas of social organisation)!

Following, if it has not been posted before, is some concrete info on which flag was used (it was the Ventilator):



For fair use only.

Indigen, i did not make a big issue out of it. I just thought your explanation was far fetched and then gave my opinion. Its all good mate.

Regarding your now concrete info it was the propeller (i think this label is a new one) Well the Croats use to see their late zvezda Toshe Proevski wrapped in it often, so this could explain why they would think its ok. They are clearly wrong, but as SOM said, "it is the gesture that counts" and " perhaps the Croatians' Macedonian friends can educate them on the correct symbol".

If the Macedonians don't get it, how do you expect the Croats to know any better.

[indigen]

Indigen, perhaps the Croatians' Macedonian friends can educate them on the correct symbol.....

That may be one way to look at it but the opposite could also be a possibility, IMHO!

[indigen]

Indigen, i did not make a big issue out of it. I just thought your explanation was far fetched and then gave my opinion. Its all good mate.

Regarding your now concrete info it was the propeller (i think this label is a new one) Well the Croats use to see their late zvezda Toshe Proevski wrapped in it often, so this could explain why they would think its ok. They are clearly wrong, but as SOM said, "it is the gesture that counts" and " perhaps the Croatians' Macedonian friends can educate them on the correct symbol".

If the Macedonians don't get it, how do you expect the Croats to know any better.

Yeah, it would appear that the late Toshe has a lot of SINS to answer for and I don't think he is going to Heaven for it! I don't know what effect he had on Croats but he certainly seems to have screwed the minds of many an impressionable (and politically zeleni) young Macedonians when it comes to the Ventilator.

Regarding your now concrete info it was the propeller (i think this label is a new one)

It is a VERY, VERY OLD LABEL, MATE! If you don't know this, then you have lived as a political hermit in some deep, deep cave away from real every day Macedonian politics!
Try some Google search terms with Ventilator+Zname (and similar) and see what you get! For starters, try the following examples:

1. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enl&...e+ventilatorot

2. http://www.google.com/search?hl=enl&q=zname+ventilator

3. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=знаме+вентилатор

***4. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...це

„Вентилаторот“ и грее и лади - Нова Македонија
-
5 окт 2010 ... ЗНАМЕТО ОД КУТЛЕШ. Симболот на сонцето е македонски од Македонија. ... знаме на нас етничките Македонци. А “вентилаторот“ го доживувам како ...
www.novamakedonija.com.mk/- Cached

[indigen]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Luben Todorovski <[email protected]>
Date: 1997/08/23
Subject: Re: Ilcho Gavrilov

Novica wrote:

> Three years jail for for stepping on the flag. Three years jail for
> showing "disrespect" to the symbols of the state......

> Will the people who robbed countless Macedonians of their life
> savings ever see the inside of a courtroom, let alone a prison cell?

> No, because the latter are SDSM members (and important ones at that)
> while the former is a member of VMRO-DPMNU. You can "disrespect" the
> citizens of Macedonia by robbing people of their money, running the
> economy into the ground, selling off state assests to party members
> for a song, being involved in all sorts of corruption but p l e a se,
> c i t i z e n s, don't "disrespect" the flag.......... It would be
> such a hilarious joke if there wasn't a man facing three years in
> jail.

> The TAT criminals, who have left a trail of suicides and broken
> families in their wake, remain unpunished while a citizen exercising
> his basic right to protest in a manner which has not hurt anybody
> (except for the "dignity" of the state) is sentenced to three years
> jail. The logic is Orwellian.

Yeah, the Macedonian Social Democrats (ex-communist) have a very
"exotic" definition of democracy and the rule of law. Poor Ilcho,
this tme he will be the one to pay the highest price of the MK political
and juridical perversion. The logic is not Orwellian,
the logic is pure Gligorovian.

> The sad irony, of course, is that two years ago the government showed
> extreme "disrespect" to Macedonia's first flag by unilaterally
> changing it without even asking the people. Given that VMRO-DPMNU and
> the Democratic Party boycotted the last elections the government that
> made that decision was not even representative of the whole
> electorate - which should have made it an even greater imperative to
> go to a referendum on the issue because the current government does
> not have a mandate.

It is our tragedy, Novica . The "wise man" Gligorov and the rest of his
gang of criminals that call themselves a legitimate Macedonian
government could expect that their newly designed flag would not have
any respect among the MK citizens. Frankly the propellers on the
RoM flag mean nothing to me. By the way the symbols of RoM where
adopted they are more sign of humiliation than dignity.

I will be really surprised to see a Macedonian that will see the RoM
flag as an identification of his "national dignity". I am afraid tomorrow
I can be put aside for 3 years for disrespect of some newly designed
name of my fatherland. The names and the party of the possible
designers are not hard to guess, they will remained the same.

> SDSM's quiet steps towards a one party system have now become giant
> leaps towards totalitarianism. Macedonia is now a one party state and
> Ilcho Gavrilov is a political prisoner.

Macedonia needs new elections, new government. It is now up to
Gligorov to decide to step down together with his miserable gang. He
still has slight chances to leave the post of president of Republic of
Macedonia with some dignity and to be remembered as the first
president of democratic and independent Macedonia.

But my experience is telling me such a thing is hardly possible
from a man with Gligorov's moral in politics. He became a president
by an act of a political intrigue. The first thing he has shown as a
president was that he is not a person whose word can be trusted.
His incompetence and the incompetence of the gang of young and
stupid SDS politicians of the Crvenkovki kind has devastated the
Macedonian economy, our national dignity, etc. If somebody has
shown disrespect to the Macedonian Republic and MK citizens, that
is him and his party. They act deaf to the fact that only 20% of
Macedonians have some support for the ruling party. They try to
convince themselves that the meaningless peace of cloth called
new Macedonian flag is a symbol of our national dignity.

They should know, their flag is only a symbol of our misfortune to
have them govern our beloved country.

> Any Makedoners who might be members of Amnesty International
> should bring Ilcho's case before their local group. Contact your federal
> member of parliament or write to your country's foreign or justice
> minister and ask them to take this matter up with the Macedonian
> government.

> Any other suggestions about how else we can manifest our support?

I will suggest a fond to be formed that will be used for a skillful
attorney for Ilcho. I suppose a way can be found in the MK legal
system for another fair trial. You should know that Ilcho is not the
first victim of the SDS perversion. Lets hope he will be the last.

Pozdrav:
Bube
> Regards
> Novica

https://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.makedon/msg/ee00c79720059b33

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Luben Todorovski <[email protected]>
Date: 1997/08/26
Subject: Re: Ilcho Gavrilov

[email protected] wrote:

> Tri godini za gazenje zname, epten go preterale.

Epten.

> Znam deka site ne mislat kako mene. Ima mnogumina, vo Makedonija
> i vo svetot, sto smetaat deka za zname treba da se gine i moze da se
> ubiva. Predpostavuvam deka onie sto zaginaa vo Gostivar, nivnite
> istomislenici gi smetaat za heroi i macenici. A onie sto gi ubija, da
> ne zboruvam za onie sto tepaa, mnogumina gi odobruvaat.

Za zname bi trabalo da se "gine", neznam dali bilo shto e tolku vredno
za da se ubiva. Samo znameto treba da ima nekoe znachenje, neli?
Ne mislam na zakonsko. Morame da si priznaeme deka nasheto
drzhavno zname nema ama bilo kakvo znachenie za bilo kogo vo RoM.
Pretstavuva jaden dizajn na Gligorovata impotentna polika i
kaka takvo e samo pokazatel na nashata nesreka seushte da go imame
kako pretsedatel na nashata drzhava.

> Ima mnogumina sto mislat deka znameto so sonceto trebase da
> se brani po sekoja cena.

Znameto so sonceto imashe vazhnost i seushte se polzuva kako idifikacija
na Makedoskata ideja. Iako vo momentot ne e drzhavno zname, sepak za
mnogumina Makedonci vo zemjata i dijasporata e obelezhje na nashata
nacija.

> Iako, kako sto predpostavuvam spored ona sto go citame, i Ilco
> e od tie sto smetaat deka za zname treba da se gine, a posle veli
> " ne, ne pijan bev", besmisleno i glupavo e voopsto da se stava vo
> zatvor za toa. Edna kloca vo gazot, dovolno mu e. A za vo negovata
> zatvorska celija, ima tolku mnogu drugi pozasluzni od nego.

Neosporno e deka Ilcho neposeduva nitu politichka, nitu opshta kultura.
No 3 godini vo Idrizovo nema da mu pomognat vo toj pogled. Chovekot
e zhrtva na politichka igra. Iskoristen e od SDSM za da najnizok nachin
sobere bar malce simpatii od nekoi vo MK koi seushte si go trujat
mozokot so izdanijata na velepropasta narechena NIP Nova Makedonija.

Od druga strana e napushten od VMRO-DPMNE bidejki partijata koja
ima najgolema podrshka vo Makedonskiot elektorat sigurno nejke da
gradi imidz na huliganstvo. Ne treba chovek da bide genie da
go svati molkot na partijata vo odnos na sluchajot Ilco protiv
narodot. Ilcho e zhrtva na svojata glupost i na niskata i valkana
igra narechena Makedonska politika.

Pozdrav:

Bube
> v
> Zarko

https://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.makedon/msg/9955c6b7b5822698

-----------------

Some views on the "Ventilator" from 1997.

[Risto the Great]

It often makes me wonder what happens to thoughtful Macedonian activists over the years. Do they simply give up at some point in time after being frustrated with the overwhelming negativity in Macedonia? Do they take the money and run if they are politicians?

It is a shame to lose good people.

[Soldier of Macedon]

That may be one way to look at it but the opposite could also be a possibility, IMHO!

What is the opposite? That the Croats are doing this in spite of Macedonians? Or that Macedonian politicians are arranging for football fans to carry only the new flag? All far-fetched. Many Macedonians don't need to be told to wave the new flag, they do it anyway.

[indigen]

What is the opposite? That the Croats are doing this in spite of Macedonians? Or that Macedonian politicians are arranging for football fans to carry only the new flag? All far-fetched. Many Macedonians don't need to be told to wave the new flag, they do it anyway.

The opposite, as I see it, would in this case be some Macedonians waving the Ventilator and that their Croatian friends could teach them which flag is preferable for us!