Conflicts in the Middle East & Northern Africa

[fyrOM]

error - re-posted in different thread - system wouldn't just let me delete it.

[indigen]

Libya – People Groups
****Arab, Cyrenaican 1,656,000 (East)
Arab, Egyptian 508,000

****Arab, Libyan 1,848,000 (West)

Bedouin, Fezzan 204,000
Bedouin, Sanusi 613,000

http://www.joshuaproject.net/countries.php?rog3=LY

Looks like the ethnic and/or regional/national divisions are what is at play in the current Libyan conflict and that the imperialists are simply taking advantage of the inherent divisions and competing power struggles found in (most) states arising from artificially drawn colonial borders.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1065&highlight=ljubcho

Libya conflict: Gaddafi forces hold off rebel push

Libyan rebels fighting for control of the capital Tripoli have met strong resistance from pro-Gaddafi forces.

The rebels, who launched an all-out assault on Sunday, say they now control the vast majority of the city.

But fighting still rages in several parts of the city. A convoy advancing from the west was forced to pull back.

The son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, Saif al-Islam, whom the rebels had said had been arrested, appeared at a hotel held by pro-Gaddafi forces.

The BBC's Matthew Price, who is staying at Hotel Rixos and spoke to Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, said he appeared buoyed up and full of adrenalin.

Saif al-Islam said the rebels had fallen into a "trap" in Tripoli, and that pro-Gaddafi forces had broken their backbone.

He had been widely seen as his father's future successor. On Sunday the rebels claimed they had captured him, along with other members of his family.

Col Gaddafi's whereabouts are still unclear. His compound is being defended by loyalist troops.

The rebels swept into Tripoli following an uprising in the capital on Saturday. They who were greeted by jubilant crowds in central Green Square when they arrived on Sunday.

Rebel fighters have set up checkpoints in parts of the city, and say reinforcements arriving by boat. But they have been meeting stiff resistance in a number of areas.

Libyan rebels fighting for control of the capital Tripoli have met strong resistance from pro-Gaddafi forces.

The rebels, who launched an all-out assault on Sunday, say they now control the vast majority of the city.

But fighting still rages in several parts of the city. A convoy advancing from the west was forced to pull back.

The son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, Saif al-Islam, whom the rebels had said had been arrested, appeared at a hotel held by pro-Gaddafi forces.

The BBC's Matthew Price, who is staying at Hotel Rixos and spoke to Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, said he appeared buoyed up and full of adrenalin.

Saif al-Islam said the rebels had fallen into a "trap" in Tripoli, and that pro-Gaddafi forces had broken their backbone.

He had been widely seen as his father's future successor. On Sunday the rebels claimed they had captured him, along with other members of his family.

Col Gaddafi's whereabouts are still unclear. His compound is being defended by loyalist troops.

The rebels swept into Tripoli following an uprising in the capital on Saturday. They who were greeted by jubilant crowds in central Green Square when they arrived on Sunday.

Rebel fighters have set up checkpoints in parts of the city, and say reinforcements arriving by boat. But they have been meeting stiff resistance in a number of areas.

Continue reading the main story Rebels enter Green Square Jubilant rebel fighters pushed their way into the heart of Tripoli on Sunday. BBC team attacked BBC reporter Rupert Wingfield-Hayes was accompanying rebels into central Tripoli when pro-Gaddafi forces attacked his convoy.

A rebel spokesman said his forces had come under fire from tanks emerging from Col Gaddafi's compound at Bab al-Azizia in western Tripoli early on Monday. Witnesses say there has been sustained gunfire in the area throughout the day.

Gaddafi loyalists remain in control of the area further south around the Rixos Hotel, where many Western journalists are based.

And rebels coming in from the west were ambushed by Gaddafi loyalists using anti-aircraft fire. The rebels were forced to pull out of the city late on Monday.

"We are bracing ourselves for another night of intense street fighting," a Tripoli resident told the BBC.

"I think Gaddafi security forces will resort to guerrilla warfare because they know they do not have the support of the people."

But another resident said rebel fighters were "breaking into people's houses, stealing everything", adding that the rebel assault would be "a disaster for Libya and Nato".

The BBC's Tripoli correspondent, Rana Jawad, who has been unable to report openly since March, says people in her district in eastern Tripoli were woken by the imam at the local mosque singing the national anthem of the pre-Gaddafi monarchy.

She says there is a sense that the end is near, and that the rebels have achieved what they wanted.

In Green Square rebel supporters tore down the green flags of the Gaddafi government and trampled on portraits of the colonel.

World leaders have urged Col Gaddafi to step down. US President Barack Obama said elements of the Gaddafi regime continued to pose a threat.

"But this much is clear: the Gaddafi regime is coming to an end and the future of Libya is in the hands of its people," he said.

He appealed to Col Gaddafi to reduce further bloodshed by "explicitly relinquishing power to the people of Libya and calling on those forces that continue to fight to lay down their arms".

Mustafa Abdul Jalil, head of the rebel National Transitional Council (NTC), told a news conference on Monday afternoon that he had no idea where Col Gaddafi was.

"We have no knowledge of Gaddafi being [in his compound], or whether he is still in or outside Libya," he said.

A diplomatic source told AFP news agency that Col Gaddafi could still be in Bab al-Azizia. He has not been seen in public for months, although he has broadcast audio messages from undisclosed locations.

In a message broadcast late on Sunday, the Libyan leader urged residents to "save Tripoli" from the rebels.

Libyan Information Minister Moussa Ibrahim said fighting in the city on Sunday had left 1,300 people dead and 5,000 wounded. There is no confirmation of the figures.

[Soldier of Macedon]

During the last few days, the rebels in Libya, western media, even western politicians like David Cameron were claiming that Seif Al-Islam, Gaddafi's most prominent son, was arrested. And now it has been revealed that he is free. He just did an interview on TV not long ago. Apparently he was arrested but then escaped because he was had an inexperienced guard. Who knows. It may have just been a propaganda stunt by NATO.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/spotlight/libya/2011/08/2011822235934828611.html

Saif al-Islam, son of Muammar Gaddafi, who was reported to have been captured by Libyan opposition forces on Sunday, has made a public appearance in Tripoli, AFP news agency reported.

"I am here to refute the lies," Saif al-Islam, wanted by the International Criminal Court [ICC] for crimes against humanity, said on Monday, referring to reports of his arrest.

When asked if his father was safe and well in Tripoli, Saif said, "Of course".

Several journalists saw Saif al-Islam at Bab al-Azizyah, Gaddafi's residential complex in the capital.

Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the ICC prosecutor, had earlier said the 39-year-old was arrested and in detention.

Three journalists, including from AFP, were taken by car to the Gaddafi compound by representatives of the regime.

Saif al-Islam arrived in a vehicle in front of the building complex, which was bombed by the Americans in 1986.

He was greeted by several dozen supporters waving his portrait and that of his father, as well as Libyan flags.

Earlier on Monday, rebel forces arrested Saadi Gaddafi, the third son of Gaddafi.

Saadi Gaddafi's capture, in the capital Tripoli, came as the whereabouts of other relatives and senior Libyan officials remained unknown.

Gaddafi's eldest son, Mohammad, who was also detained by rebels on Sunday night is reported to have escaped.

In an interview with Al Jazeera after he surrendered, Mohammad expressed his "sadness" at the fighting in Libya. The interview was interrupted by gunfire.

"What's happening in Libya is very upsetting. The killing between brothers, between Muslims, is something that saddens me," he said, shortly before gunfire rang out in the background.

Abdul Jalil said that Gaddafi was unharmed, though there was no way to verify that claim. Mohammad did, however, conduct another interview on air with Al Jazeera shortly after the gunfire.

Mohammad was the chairman of Libya's main state-run telecommunications firm, but his role in his father's government was reportedly minimal, far smaller than Saif al-Islam's.

[Onur]

It`s hard to believe anything since the propaganda war even bigger and more effective than the war itself anymore.

Btw, there is one more thing. The media only talks about the cheerful rebels in Tripoli but i read that the night before the rebels entrance to the capital, NATO fighter aircrafts did over 7000+ sorties to the Tripoli, probably dropped over 10.000s of bombs to the city, which resulted over 1000+ dead. But media only talks about the democratization of Libya!!!

For some reason the democracy comes with 10.000 of bombs for few decades but not with the ideas, as we saw the new "democracy" in Afghanistan and Iraq b4. These countries becomes "democratic" in weeks! as a result of 1000s dead or over a million dead people as it happened in Iraq.

[George S.]

I don't beleive anything the media tells is all bs.The us is the one that installed gadafi.I think it's payback time & they want him out.What are the americans after oil???or just to be able to control a country directly.One will find behind these things is the cia.

[Onur]

Stop NATO's gangsterism: US lawmaker

A US lawmaker says NATO chiefs must be held responsible under the international law for the deaths of Libyan civilians to avoid the victory of a 'new international gangsterism.'

"If members of the Gaddafi regime are to be held accountable, NATO's top commanders must also be held accountable through the International Criminal Court for all civilian deaths resulting from bombing," Democratic Representative Dennis Kucinich was quoted by AFP as saying on Tuesday.

Kucinich denounced NATO for exceeding the UN Security Council resolution which mandated a no-fly zone over Libya to protect civilians, stating that the real aim of attacks were “regime change.”

If NATO commanders do not stand justice, we will see the victory of “a new international gangsterism,” the lawmaker said.

Kucinich has expressed opposition to the involvement of NATO and the United States in the Libya conflict.

UN Security Council members including Russia, China, Brazil, India and South Africa have also criticized the Western military alliance, saying NATO has gone beyond the UN mandate.

Colonel Roland Lavoie, a NATO spokesman for Libya's Operation Unified Protector said on Tuesday that the alliance will continue to carry out its bombing campaign to the end of the ongoing conflict in the North African country.

"We will take out and strike at targets if they pose a threat to the civilian population," Lavoie said at a news conference in Naples, Italy.

Since NATO took command of airstrikes on March 31, its warplanes have carried out 19,994 sorties including 7,541 strike sorties, a Reuters report published on August 23 said.

Aug 23, 2011

http://www.presstv.com/detail/195428.html

[Zarni]

Just like the war against Serbia, Hospitals and Media have been bombed sanctioned as legitimate Military Targets not to mention the deliberate murder of the Libyan presidents immediate Family

[Zarni]

http://news.antiwar.com/2011/08/23/nato-wonders-where-libyas-chemical-weapons-went/

More unbelivable stuff, Libya has UMD's heck if Libya had UMD's there will not be a single NATO bombing sortie and the Rebels would still be Terrorists, look how the Rebels who were former AQ fighters in Afganistan and Pakistan a mere few moths ago are now friends of the US, Great Britian and France

Just another post Bosnia, Kosovo , Macedonia, Afgnistan and Iraq script to follow

[Onur]

2011-08-24 WikiLeaks Notes: Latest News on #Cablegate Releases & #WikiLeaks


* Less than 2 years ago, the US were selling military parts to the Libyan Air Force through 3rd countries; http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/11/09STATE115561.html


* Gaddafi-McCain chat on U.S. firms selling lethal weapons to Libya; http://wikileaks.org/cable/2009/08/09TRIPOLI648.html


* Privatization of Libya's central bank seen as "opportunity" by U.S. government for American banks; http://wikileaks.org/cable/2008/03/08TRIPOLI230.html


* U.S. companies win $2 billion worth of infrastructure contracts as reward for "political relationship."; http://wikileaks.org/cable/2007/12/07TRIPOLI1053.html

[Soldier of Macedon]

Onur, Turkey has also done a backflip regarding their approach to Libya. Integrity is non-existent among regional 'powers' it would seem.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=ankaras-libya-missteps-2011-03-25

The fight in Libya proved to be much harder to deal with for countries both in the West and East. Turkey has been no exception to that, especially as a Muslim member country of NATO which has aspirations to lead the Middle East at the same time as having extensive interests in Libya.

“We welcome Turkey to the world of double standards as a regional leader,” said one Washington-based Turkey observer this week when I asked him to comment on Turkey’s approach to Libya. According to this expert, someone who sat and talked with Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan recently, Turkey’s sharp and abrupt oppositions to the sanctions on Libyan regime, then the NATO involvement and any foreign intervention mostly stemmed from Erdoğan’s “emotional reactions.”

Indeed, Erdoğan’s “What has NATO got to do in Libya?” inveigh will not easily fade from memories, when we observe now that same Turkish administration contributing the largest fleet to implement a naval blockade of Libya in support of the United Nations' arms embargo.

Another Turkey observer in Washington described Turkey’s Libya policy in the following fashion, “From the beginning of the Libyan crisis, Turkish foreign policy has resembled a car that is going in the wrong direction at 200 kilometers per hour, at the same time trying to convince the other cars that they are going in the wrong direction.”

At the start of the crisis, Turkey articulated extensively about its immediate concerns in Libya, pointing to its tens of thousands of citizens, along with billions of dollars in investments. Ankara’s legitimate concerns were well understood in Washington in those weeks, and its cautious steps also appeared justified in the first period. After all, Ankara had every right to look after its own interests as a foreign state, like any other.

Though Ankara's real issue, along with its knee-jerk sharp opposition to intervention calls, was its inability to adjust its position according to rapidly changing international public opinion that gained momentum against Gadhafi over the weeks. Erdoğan, following the military operation, finally stated at beginning of this week that he privately told Gadhafi to step down three weeks ago to alleviate mounting criticism against his administration’s soft take on Gadhafi’s ruthless actions.

Turkey also missed the chance by not taking a lead role to rally behind the United Nations Security Council resolution vocally, when Gadhafi forces were taking back other cities and getting closer to Benghazi to wipe out the rebels.

Instead of emphasizing this imminent and clear humanitarian situation and taking an active part with the coalition forces as an aspiring regional power, the Justice and Development Party, or AKP’s top foreign officials mounted very vague accusations against the West for it is pursuing its own “oil interest” and also failing to overcome its Orientalist mindset.

Erdoğan’s top foreign policy adviser İbrahim Kalın’s recent columns in Today’s Zaman open a wide window of opportunity to read Ankara’s ideological stand point on the matter. Kalın’s “Overcoming Orientalism and Eurocentrism in the Middle East” piece especially argues this mindset and states that “the soft revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt and the uprisings in Libya, Bahrain, Yemen and other places have one thing in common: Arabs do not want to be ruled by dictators. This is the first lesson for Arab Orientalism.”

The real dilemma here is for Kalın that it is Washington, and Ankara's nowadays much disfavoring capital Paris, who took the initiative to stop dictator's forces at the outskirts of Benghazi, with starting its aerial bombing campaign while Turkey’s foreign minister was calling for “no foreign intervention.”

Another argument used by Ankara is that it is Nicolas Sarkozy, an unpopular French leader who appears to be trailing other presidential candidates in his country, who pressured U.S. President Obama to start the air strike campaign last weekend, when actually Turkey was working on a diplomatic solution.

When I conveyed this argument to a Washington expert who was familiar with the decision-making process that went on at the White House’s National Security Council last weekend, he chuckled and stated, “Nobody in the world would pressure a U.S. president into a conflict that he is not entirely comfortable with the reasons, particularly at a time when there are two wars to handle.”

This expert added, “It took hours at the NSC to work on that decision when Obama's Latin America travel plans were ongoing.” Obama also risks big with this intervention, an operation that appears to have a real potential to drag into the open-ended conflict, while he was supposed to end the wars and solve budget woes.

As a Muslim member of NATO, and with its heavy ties with Libya, Turkey had a big stake over the affairs related to Libya, and its long hours of diplomacy especially on Thursday in Brussels ought to be respected. Turkey’s cautions about civilian causalities in Libya also is very dignified and makes a lot of sense when considering civilian death news reports in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Now that the decision has been reached by NATO members to take charge of the no-fly zone imposition over Libyan airspace, and there is a real possibility in the coming days of also taking over the mission of protecting civilians against the Gadhafi regime, Turkey’s role will be equally crucial with regard to use of force if necessary to deter Gadhafi forces from slaughtering rebels.

At any rate, Turkey once more has become an actor within NATO to threaten to block a major decision, following the Lisbon NATO summit in late last year where Turkey had serious issues with the concept of the missile defense shield and also previously had serious objections during the appointment process of current NATO chief Rasmussen.

Ankara's pointed statements about the West’s intentions on Libya also continued to draw a picture of Turkey in Washington that is increasingly at odds with the Western interests and general understandings with the world affairs.

Whether the pattern of Turkey’s opposing posture at stages like NATO is a signal of changing ideologies of the country, plain unpreparedness before the rapidly evolving Arab world or pure conflicting national interests is up for a debate. The answer well maybe a mix of all three.

Even in case of a greatly disturbed dictator who openly threatens to show "no mercy" on his own citizens, the AKP foreign policy team ran to borrow good old “Orientalism” arguments, in addition to fueling lots of conspiracy theories to catch fires among the Turkish public and foreign policy writers.

It is true that no living creature in the world is able to predict what the next step in Libya is. Though the revolt fever appears to be catching in Syria, Erdoğan's great friend’s land, and promising to get even closer to Ankara’s heart without any sign of an end in sight.

For region and Turkey’s salvation, it can be only hoped that Libya missteps would give Davutoglu’s team a good wake up call to work on a comprehensive foreign policy principals that can respond and support Arab peoples' universal demands in clear terms even if every country that is dealing with revolts has its own set of circumstances.

TESEV survey in Washington

On Thursday morning, the Center for American Progress, a think tank that is closely aligned with the current Obama administration, hosted Dr. Mensur Akgün and the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation, or TESEV, to present their survey, called “the perception of Turkey in the Middle East 2010.” The survey follows last year’s first-ever survey taken in seven Middle Eastern countries, plus Iran.

The survey was taken before the wave of revolts began, and with a sample size of on average less than 300 people in each country. TESEV’s survey puts Turkey’s favorability rate among Arab people at 80 percent in 2010, following 75 percent in 2009.

According to the same survey, Turkey’s “Muslim background” is the most important reason for Arabs to consider it as a model by 15 percentage points, followed by its economy, then democracy and vocal support for Palestinians cause.

It is known that Turkey’s Foreign Ministry was quite happy with the results of the survey, which consists of high favorability rates as well as other remarkably high perceptions towards Turkey.

The next survey will be definitely very telling about Turkey’s performance when it comes to the big Arab Spring of 2011.

[Onur]

Thats true SOM. AKP government`s politics about Libya was/is a disaster. They simply didn't know what to do and say. Mostly because of the panic due to multi billion dollars Turkish investments existed in Libya. Most of the Turkish investors in Libya are very close to the Erdogan`s AKP government and they panicked and looked like stupid. At first, they wanted to prevent NATO bombing and appear nice to Gaddafi but while they were thinking about that, French army was already deploying bombs inside F-16s and British pilots was about to take off from Greek Cyprus.

I strongly dislike Erdogan and his supporters. Turkey is strictly divided on this issue. People either like them or hate them, no gray side exists. Erdogan, his party AKP and their supporters are muslim version of "christian democrats" in western world. And i never trust to the politicians who uses these tags, titles and this religious rhetoric. If some politician uses these tags and talks about christian or muslim brotherhood, you can be sure that he has hidden agendas, secret benefits, undercover money profits or something like that and AKP in Turkey is no exception.

I am afraid that we need an economical crisis or some kind of kurdish upheaval to be able to get rid of Erdogan and his crew in Turkey, otherwise he will stay in reign cuz most of his supporters are firmly united but his oppositions are divided in 10 pieces, groups, parties. Unfortunately USA and EU supports AKP too cuz all the political groups in Turkey except AKP are strongly against EU and USA policies while AKP government is neutral and can be allies of them if they can see some profit in it.

[George S.]

Onur it looks like a damned if you do & damned if you don't policy.You are right the last thing anyone want's is to lose those billions of turkish investments.Also he Erdogan doesn't seem to budge unless there is a major upheaval.You don't think that he Erdogan has upset the turkish masses enough for him to get booted out like the egyptians with moubarak.Correct me if i'm wrong here.The news people allready have said that the opposition forces to gadafi are allready in his compound & they said that one of his sons was caught but they retracted that.Somehow i think theUS(cia) is behind all that & for whatever reasons want him out.The us wan't's their own sort of puppet govt to lead libyiya.THey forget that back in 1947 they & the british put gadafi there in the first place.

[Onur]

At least half of the Turkish people are upset with him but they are divided. Also, not everyone is sensitive to these kind of matters. They think like; "i am doing ok economically, so better not to change current AKP government".


As for Libya or any other middle eastern country, actually we shouldn't be surprised for any of these rebellions in there. All of these countries has been created by great powers after WW-1. Most of these people are just ignorant and deeply religious tribal groups. Great powers set up their dictators on them and ofc they can change the puppet dictators anytime they want or they can divide these countries if they wish to do so, because it was them who drew their current borders in first place. CIA and British MI6 agents like Gertrud Bell, Lawrence of Arabia drew the borders of these middle eastern countries.

[Soldier of Macedon]

A and British MI6 agents like Gertrud Bell, Lawrence of Arabia drew the borders of these middle eastern countries.

They did a very poor job and in some cases basically ruled straight lines on a piece of paper. What do you think would have been a better solution for them, Onur? To stick with the Turks, to have one large Arabic state, or something else?