John Bitove

[julie]

osiris
Hope you are in good health. Blessings.

I am not a fascist, just someone that does not want history to be repeated, that is, the partitioning of todays RoM, because that is where its headed . If that makes me an uber patriot, then am proud.

[Rogi]

Does anyone want to put a project plan together to build a Macedonian Church town (50 - 70,000 people), in south Western Macedonia - and then present it to Mr Bitov among others for finance ? He might love the idea - there is no profit in it, but it will guarantee the region stays Macedonian, and it will give us at least 2 and as many as 3 extra Macedonian members of Parliament. If Bitov is financially backing some Macedonians, perhaps he might consider something such as this?

I think you should take this to a new thread, because it is worthy of one on its' own; the idea and purpose has considerable merit, it is therefore worthy of exploring the difficulties and obstacles in planning and proposing, let alone executing such a project.

[osiris]

no bratot i wasnt thinking of you.

i dont think you understood my post very well.

i was one of the first to consider lupcho a phoney

bitove is not a leader he is a businessman who also happens to be a patriot and a supporter of macedonia.

gligurov was the meat in the sandwich and will be always villified by some. but i think he was a man of good intentions and thought he had no options other than to do what he did. maybe a war would have been a better option and maybe it wouldnt have we will never know, but one thing is sure many macedonian lives would have been lost and maybe now macedonia would be a part of greece or a greater albania.

the serbs tried the uber patriot method and look at what it cost them.

if he was wrong then so are our current leaders who believe they must continue the name negotiations, but there is a difference now the threat of war has diminished greatly and macedonia has been an independent entity for a decade now, unlike gligurovs time

i want to know why vmro if they are the party of patriots havent actually done anything to reverse the policies they criticised so bitterly.

tito was better than the serbian royals and the greek and bulgarian governments he didnt give much of a damn about macedonia either way, but the fact is the only part of macedonia that is free today is the ex yugoslav part. make of that what you will, personally i am happy that a macedonian identity was preserved in yugoslavia if it wasnt we may not be on this forum now dicussing

kolishevski was a puppet for tito.



i am just sick of holier than thou people and if it makes me a traitor than so be it, i dont have to defend my patriotism or contribution to the macedonian cause to anyone.

tom should he have stood aside an let georgievski run the nation i am glad he didnt.

rogi i find you one of the most reasonable vmro supporters and agree with much of your above post .

[Rogi]

If I may make one correction; a former VMRO-DPMNE supporter.

[Vangelovski]

Osiris,

My point was that Gligorov never believed in Macedonian freedom - He's a vassal to the core. He was too busy trying to save Yugoslavia and when that enterprise collapsed he led the state into our current abyss. People like Gligorov, Frckovski and Maleski never believed in an independent Macedonian state and bought into the slave mentality fed to them by their Serb masters that Macedonia could not exist on its own - that it needed to be part of a larger state for its own economic and physical "security".

[Bratot]

no bratot i wasnt thinking of you.

i dont think you understood my post very well.

i was one of the first to consider lupcho a phoney

bitove is not a leader he is a businessman who also happens to be a patriot and a supporter of macedonia.

gligurov was the meat in the sandwich and will be always villified by some. but i think he was a man of good intentions and thought he had no options other than to do what he did. maybe a war would have been a better option and maybe it wouldnt have we will never know, but one thing is sure many macedonian lives would have been lost and maybe now macedonia would be a part of greece or a greater albania.

the serbs tried the uber patriot method and look at what it cost them.

if he was wrong then so are our current leaders who believe they must continue the name negotiations, but there is a difference now the threat of war has diminished greatly and macedonia has been an independent entity for a decade now, unlike gligurovs time

i want to know why vmro if they are the party of patriots havent actually done anything to reverse the policies they criticised so bitterly.

tito was better than the serbian royals and the greek and bulgarian governments he didnt give much of a damn about macedonia either way, but the fact is the only part of macedonia that is free today is the ex yugoslav part. make of that what you will, personally i am happy that a macedonian identity was preserved in yugoslavia if it wasnt we may not be on this forum now dicussing

kolishevski was a puppet for tito.



i am just sick of holier than thou people and if it makes me a traitor than so be it, i dont have to defend my patriotism or contribution to the macedonian cause to anyone.

tom should he have stood aside an let georgievski run the nation i am glad he didnt.

rogi i find you one of the most reasonable vmro supporters and agree with much of your above post .

Dear Osiris,

it's not healthy to simplify the historical conclussions as there are more dimensions, but we can not take the responsibility of those who were holding such crucial positions.

I don't want to lecture you but you should take a read of the statements made by Gligorov, Branko and the rest of SDSM the day before the referendum for Independence in 1991:

Осми септември беше обичен ден во календарската година за македонскиот народ, но од 1991 година тоа е ден кога е остварен вековниот стремеж на Македонците за самостојна и суверена македонска држава.
На 8 септември 1991 година се одржа референдумот за независна македонска држава, која се разделуваше од југословенската држава, која ја демнеше военото лудило.
На историското прашање „Дали сте за суверена и самостојна држава Македонија со право да стапи во иден сојуз на Југославија“, од 1.452.972 граѓани со право на глас, 95 проценти односно 1.079.308 се изјасниле „за“, а 39.639 биле „против“.



Гласот „за“ суверена и самостојна Македонија е глас за здружување во сојуз на суверени држави на Југославија. Повеќедецениското опстојување и заедничкиот соживот на овој простор се основата врз која ги осознаваме и нашите интереси за неговата иднина - нагласил Глигоров во обраќањето.



Претседателот на СДСМ, Бранко Црвенковски, изјавува дека значењето на референдумот било тесно поврзано со дотогашната политика на Македонија да се зачува југословенската заедница во форма на сојуз на суверени држави.



Игри околу референдумот


За распишувањето на референдумот имало многу игри. Иако ВМРО-ДПМНЕ беше главен поборник за независна Македонија, додека другите на тоа гледаа со недоверба и се обидуваа да ја спасат Југославија. По еден таен состанок во Скопје, на кој присуствувале браќата Гоце и Димитар Димитрови, Никола Кљусев, Љубчо Георгиевски, Доста Димовска, Ратка Димитрова, Борис Змејковски, Павле Трајанов, Слободан Богоевски и Милош Линдро, по неколку дена, на изненадување на сите, СДСМ и Либералната партија предложиле Собранието да донесе одлука за распишување на референдумот. Но тоа било условено со составувањето на референдумското прашање.




Не сме за отцепување од Југославија

- Референдумот не значи отцепување од југословенската заедница. Позитивниот исход од референдумот е во прилог на мирот и мирната разврска на југословенската криза - се вели во еден дел од прогласот од политичките партии до граѓаните на Македонија.

Ваквата формулација во прогласот била на Никола Поповски од СДСМ.

http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=2&fCat=1&top=1&EditionID=177&ArticleID=6729

---

It is very clear whose intentions were pro-Serbian.

Gligorov and the whole board of SDSM stated the referendum should not be for Independent Macedonia and they put their condition in order to be organized such referendum with adding " with the right to enter into a future confederacy with Yugoslavia "

They pulled for a federation with "some of the Yugoslavian states" understandably the only one to border with us is - SERBIA.
It was directed against our indepent status.

We judge someone for his actions, those who were involved in actions against us, including the business interest of Bitove in assisting Gligorov by being his 'voice' for accepting something he shouldn't even though there was NO need for it, as the NYT articles explains.

Osiris,

My point was that Gligorov never believed in Macedonian freedom - He's a vassal to the core. He was too busy trying to save Yugoslavia and when that enterprise collapsed he led the state into our current abyss. People like Gligorov, Frckovski and Maleski never believed in an independent Macedonian state and bought into the slave mentality fed to them by their Serb masters that Macedonia could not exist on its own - that it needed to be part of a larger state for its own economic and physical "security".

Exactly.


By the way, since talking about war Osiris you should know that by staying within Yugoslavia as Gligorov wished we would have to give our people in the Yu-Serbian army in Bosna.
As you already know many Macedonians were cought serving the army when the war started and they were forced by the Serbians to fight against the Croats and Slovenes and many of them died and more would if we didn't proclaimed our idenpendency.

One of them is our Admiral Dragoljub Bocinov who refused the Serbian command to bomb on Dubrovnik and Split.

http://www.globusmagazin.com.mk/?ItemID=ACC30D7CBEC3194A801FB6FF4C045F38

Serbians did not took the path of "uber patriots" but national-shauvinistc path dreaming for "Greater Serbia".

Thanks God we didn't had to fight ANOTHER war for the Serbians as we did before.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Osiris,

My point was that Gligorov never believed in Macedonian freedom - He's a vassal to the core. He was too busy trying to save Yugoslavia and when that enterprise collapsed he led the state into our current abyss. People like Gligorov, Frckovski and Maleski never believed in an independent Macedonian state and bought into the slave mentality fed to them by their Serb masters that Macedonia could not exist on its own - that it needed to be part of a larger state for its own economic and physical "security".

Tom, your statement above is absolutely correct.

if he was wrong then so are our current leaders who believe they must continue the name negotiations, but there is a difference now the threat of war has diminished greatly and macedonia has been an independent entity for a decade now, unlike gligurovs time

There is another difference, Osiris. The current situation (which came about as a result of Gligorov's decisions) has been accepted as the 'status quo', which has made it more difficult to move from this position of pathetic subservience to foreign elements. I am not making excuses for the current government either, who, in my opinion, should pull out of these negotiations immediately. However, I would like to know, was it really a 'threat of war' that inspired Gligorov to make such horrible decisions, and if so, do you have any material and information to support such an assertion? Who made the threat that if Macedonia didn't change its name and flag it would be attacked in the military sense?

[Prolet]

Bratot, Osiris did so such thing im not sure why you take offense of everything that is said nobody is accusing you of anything. Osiris is a proven member of this forum and there is no need to question his attitude here.

If I may make one correction; a former VMRO-DPMNE supporter.

Rogi, are you referring to yourself?

Kiro Gligorov was a rotten figure, but he was wise enough to get us out of war because at that stage during the early break up of the YU we where terribly weak and we saw how the other YU republics suffered in that way, especially countries like Bosnia and Croatia.

The thing that pisses me off about Gligorov is that his constant statements that we are Slavs, im also upset with the way he changed our name and told the people that it was for our own good.

He is 93 years old, he is schooled in the old communist system so i guess after living in Belgrade for 40 years and being Tito's right hand man at one stage his ideologies are different to what we believe in. I just hope we dont get people like him leading our country because we will never prosper in this democratic world.

[Prolet]

My point was that Gligorov never believed in Macedonian freedom - He's a vassal to the core. He was too busy trying to save Yugoslavia and when that enterprise collapsed he led the state into our current abyss. People like Gligorov, Frckovski and Maleski never believed in an independent Macedonian state and bought into the slave mentality fed to them by their Serb masters that Macedonia could not exist on its own - that it needed to be part of a larger state for its own economic and physical "security".

I agree with that Vangelovski, finally something we both agree on.

I remember Denko Maleski once saying how Macedonia would break up from Yugoslavia over his dead body, this is why we are fighting our name battle today 20 years later because instead of being like the Slovenians and looking to the future those people were busy fighting to save the break up of the YU.

Then the Greeks hit us in the head with a sledge hammer and it all went down hill from there with embargoes,changing of our flag and the use of the fyrom reference.

[Bratot]

Bratot, Osiris did so such thing im not sure why you take offense of everything that is said nobody is accusing you of anything. Osiris is a proven member of this forum and there is no need to question his attitude here.

I have a discussion with Osiris, not with you and stop being boring lawyer.
If you are disturbed by what I wrote skip it and don't show up like a fungus on every thread.

Kiro Gligorov was a rotten figure, but he was wise enough to get us out of war because at that stage during the early break up of the YU we where terribly weak and we saw how the other YU republics suffered in that way, especially countries like Bosnia and Croatia.

Because of his Serbian service we were pretty much close to got involved in the Yugoslavian war.

Instead he could satisfy the Serbians with ALL of the weaponry JNA had in Macedonia for which MACEDONIAN people paid also in the budget.

[Rogi]

Prolet, to answer your question addressed to me, my answer is yes.

[Prolet]

Bratot, I have no problems with you at all, infact i respect your opinion and contribution to this forum. You just seem to be so upset and feel that somebody is trying to attack you for some reason and thats not the case.

You've known me for long enough to know that i dont attack people just because i dissagree with their views, i've always been in favor of a good and healthy debate i just dont want to see other forum members being put down just because they dissagree on certain things.

I agree with you about JNA, we payed a price for it but for me its better to loose that weaponry then to loose lives like the other bloody conflicts.

[Bratot]

Prolet,
you are not moderator of this discussion and it's really not your business to give unnecessary replies how should we develop our discussion. Pay attention to the arguments and not me, you are not my therapist nor it's necessary to come out with your perceptions of someone else.
It's simple, you are annoying with being the " zhenata koja znae se' za sekogo i se mesha vo sekoja mandja ".
Just skip replying to me in future and decrease your 'spokesman' role.

[Bratot]

Малески зборува за неговото искуство како министер за надворешни работи во времето на осамостојувањето на Македонија.

- Тогаш беше ангажиран Џон Битов, кој, пак, работеше со лица што ги знае главно во Канада, но и воопшто во Северна Америка. Со негова помош беше договорена средба со тогашниот американски заменик-државен секретар Лоренс Игелбергер, кому му беа презентирани македонските приоритети - вели Малески, кој смета дека улогата на лобистите е, пред сé, да ги отворат вратите, а потоа претставниците од земјата на најдобар можен начин да го искористат тоа.

http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=729101012365&id=9&setIzdanie=22046

Trators solidarity

[indigen]

Macedonia Assembles Diplomatic (Bitove) Top Guns (AMW/AMN - 31-3-1992)

needs to be deleted.