Ivo Petkovski - The Traitor

[Onur]

It's not that weird when you consider that it was a post on a forum, not a definitive history of the region, but I agree that all those things are traumatic also, but they share another thing - they're all finished.

I think the exact opposite. Whats completely finished is the Ottoman era and it`s effect. It was over at 1913. On the other hand, current name issue is the continuation of the traumatic problems of Balkan war and the other events afterwards. These are definitely not finished at all. It`s problems are still here. If it would be finished like you say, then why would Greece demand a name change from ROM?

I focussed on the Ottoman issue because it unites Greece and Macedonia, it's common ground, and this debate too often doesn't have any reference to the shared experience of the two nations.

I say, get over with it anymore, ok? Uniting with a Greek and crying over the Ottoman era together with him wont make you any good. You don't have much left about from the 500+ years of Ottoman era anyway, except baklavas, bureks and few other stuff. You can even consider those as Greek heritage if you like, since some Greeks claims so.

It was completely over about 100 years ago and it has no relation whatsoever with the current problems between Greece and ROM. Also, there was no naming or territorial issues about Macedonia at all between 1370 to 1913. From Salonika to Kumanovo and Ohrid to Kavala, it was simply called Macedonia by the Turks and by the rest of the world.


In your message, you kinda imply that both Greeks and Macedonians are the victims of Turkish occupation and even the current name issue is evident because of Ottoman invasion!

Duh... Bash the Turk even for the death of Christ? Thats soooo cliche anymore

[Makedonetz]

Ivo welcome to the forum.

It;s funny Turkey accepts our name as Macedonia and they have had a huge impact of our past along with the greeks. Why is it so obsured the greeks find it difficult to accept our claims on Egj as not ours but Turkey has?

We are far from over....Greece won't stop till the name of Macedonia is wiped out compleatly from every mouth but their failing so in the end, it will be them againts us. What are your thoughts on the Belgaci claiming rights to enter into greece to see their villiages from where they left? Are you in support of Greece implementing this or do you have a double agenda with a gun pointed in your back for talking to much?

[IvoPetkovski]

Onur,

No, I don't think Turkey are 'to blame', don't get me wrong. What I'm saying is that the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans perhaps slowed the arrival of that national identity idea in the region, as the Ottomans classified everyone by religion. Consequent events have been a story of too many competing identities trying to assert themselves in an accelerated way.

It's pointless speculation, but perhaps without the occupation the local Slavs and Greeks would have time to settle into some sort of co-existence, or at the very least they might have got the sectarian fighting over with back in the 1700s, and then reached some sort of consensus.

But politically, I definitely wouldn't advocate some sort of former-Ottoman victim narrative, that would benefit no one. I just meant to highlight the ways in which Greece and other Balkan people have some significant shared experience, and the way this impacts today's situation.

[Serdarot]

...
In your message, you kinda imply that both Greeks and Macedonians are the victims of Turkish occupation and even the current name issue is evident because of Ottoman invasion!

it is Turkish fault!

how could you fail in front of Viena?

ýou should send less Macedonians "surgyun" on "juz-bir", and pay them for fighting.

we were so or so the best Sultans troops (Stambol failed when the Janicari attacked it...)

btw, Ivo probably failed to learn that the post-medieval "greeks":

- invited the Turks to the area
- often co-operated with the Turkish authorities
- later betryed the Turks like they betrayed our ancestors so many times...

btw, "druze ivo", samo ti prodolzi

ko sho mu pisav na eden "grk", sticking the head in the send will not make the Lion to go away...

i hope you are aware that the members of this forum are NOT the only Macedonians who are introduced with your text, and you will have to answer MANY questions...

If you do us for OUR, Macedonian Good, do us a favour pls:

- take greek or some other passport, and stop fighting for our, Macedonian Couse and Rights.

For our and your good...

[Serdarot]

... the local Slavs and Greeks ...

lol

who are you, "dude" ?

local Slavs?

we call ourself MAKEDONI

jasno?

[IvoPetkovski]

Serdarot, izgleda samo jas i ti sme budni, site drugi spijat vo Avstralija. Izvini, ama ne si mnogu atraktiven prospekt - vreme za televizija i krevet, aj ke se chueme utre vecher.

[Grotius]

Ivo,

When you suggest that some of the traumatic episodes Macedonia has confronted are "all finished" exposes a level of ignorance. The consequences of the partition in 1913 and the so-called "Greek Civil War" are not finished, indeed a lot of today's "issues" a borne out of those events. A lot of Macedonians, today, suffer direct taumatic experiences from those events. Underpinning a lot of today's "issues" is the overarching existential question, just ask the Macedonians who live in Greece - you seem to have forgotten them. The "issues" today are not mutually exclusive. If you want to look at the experiences of the two nations, you can't simply go back to Ottoman times and stop there - what else happened?

Unfortunately, a lot of your comments do appear suspiciously familiar, in that it is what Greek propaganda has been spewing out for some time.

[aleksandrov]

Ivo,

A key reason why Macedonian society is so far behind countries like Australia and Germany is because of the continuing predominance of the defeatist, submissive, slave mentality that people like yourself continue to ignorantly or opportunistically preserve and cultivate.

For a person with 'European' pretensions, you waste way too many words on a dubious version of ethnic history and rely too heavily on an outdated conception of ethnic or national identity. Yet you make no mention at all of internationally codified concepts of national sovereignty and human rights and freedoms.

"You can't see the whole sky through a bamboo tube." - Japanese proverb

[Onur]

What I'm saying is that the Ottoman occupation of the Balkans perhaps slowed the arrival of that national identity idea in the region, as the Ottomans classified everyone by religion. Consequent events have been a story of too many competing identities trying to assert themselves in an accelerated way.

I think you are wrong with your assumption.

Ottoman Empire had no power to stop nationalistic ideas flowing through to the Balkans at late 19th. These ideas arrived to Macedonia later than others not because of Ottoman Empire`s influence or power in the region.
The reason for this; there was two competing factor for Macedonia, Russians by using Bulgars as their peons and British was using Greeks for the same goal. Also Macedonia`s demographics wasn't that ideal for it before 1912 but they couldn't wait any longer than that since there was going to be WW-1 to start at 1914.

IMHO, you better re-check your historical comprehension before trying to make an assumption.

[Risto the Great]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I’ll try to cover what I think are the main points raised.


Well this seems to be a point of pride, but it’s interesting to think why people feel this strongly about it. The name change is a geographical designation, not a change of signifier - we’d still be Macedonian, and no one can change that. I think the Macedonians are just as collectively traumatised as the Greeks by the Ottoman invasion, and just as desperate to construct the myths that are perceived as necessary for a modern ethnic identity (Ackovska was honest on this point, to her credit).

If we’re honest, we can all acknowledge that being Macedonian, for us Slavs, is a relatively recent construct. Nothing wrong with that - it’s the same for all formerly occupied territories, and especially true in the Balkans where the national idea took root later than in Western Europe and elsewhere in the world. But 2/3 generations ago, we didn’t think we were Macedonians - the classification just didn’t make sense, we were Orthodox Christians and that was enough. Then, in the late 19th Century, the nation state as an idea swept through the region, and later still, in the 1930s/1940s, the Macedonians settled on that ethnic identity.

For me, those 60 years are enough to create the identity in reality. I’m comfortable with it, I can only be Macedonian, I’m not anything else - not FYROMian, Rumelian, Slavomacedonian, or the rest. But I don’t see why the identity can only be seen as legitimate if it’s projected back in time for the last 2,300 years, and in the face of the available facts. The ancient Macedonians were a Hellenicized culture, and therefore the modern culture that can most claim continuity with them is Greece. I don’t think that continuity is nearly as pronounced as some Greeks make out, but it’s dishonest to act like our Slavic culture has more continuity with the ancient Macedonians. It just doesn’t.

But as inhabitants of the region, I think we can claim that name. That’s why it’s right that we have done, but I don’t see it as a mortal sin to acknowledge that both the Macedonians and the Greeks are in a desperate scramble to piece together a continuous ethnic narrative that somehow stretches across and eclipses the Ottoman occupation. We should understand the Greek irrationality and stubbornness, because we’re just the same, and for the same reasons. And yes, I know that both sides have made compromises.

In fact, I don't see the 'Northern Macedonia' name as the best outcome, my original assertion was that I would find this tolerable, and I have tried to give some reasons for that. But there's equally an argument to be made for holding fast until Greece concede the constitutional name, it just means that we have to continue being embattled on all fronts for a while longer. It's this kind of constant strife in the political landscape that stops us from developing in terms of business, and using the revenue for better education and services, etc...basically progressing as a nation. That's what I really want to see.

Ivo, I do not believe you are Macedonian.
You must understand that your interpretation of matters dear to all Macedonians is completely out of step with all Macedonians. If you were a Greek espousing these beliefs, we simply would not even bother with you as your agenda would be clear.

Again you have demonstrated that you have no concept of the Ohrid agreement and all of its ramifications. I want you to explain to us your interpretation of the Ohrid agreement and why it is a step in the right direction for Macedonians. I will remind you of this until you do, so please take the necessary time to familiarise yourself with it.

Please explain how you feel comfortable with the usage of "Slavs" and "Greeks" as they relate to where Macedonians and Greeks came from. Does it not occur to you that "Greeks" is an equally misleading term as "Slavs"? If you want to talk about the middle ages, you will be very hard pressed to find any reference to "Greeks". Yet you find it easier to say "Greeks" as they apply to the various ethnicities described as Romioi than you would Macedonians.

Tell me what is progressive and "un-Balkan" about your approach? It may well be "un-Balkan" but it is far from progressive. In fact it is an invitation to further de-nationalise Macedonia.

The ancient Macedonians were a Hellenicized culture, and therefore the modern culture that can most claim continuity with them is Greece. I don’t think that continuity is nearly as pronounced as some Greeks make out, but it’s dishonest to act like our Slavic culture has more continuity with the ancient Macedonians. It just doesn’t.

Aside from your interesting choice of American spelling "Hellenicized" which makes me think we are not talking the real Ivo Petkovski, I wish to dispute your ramblings here. The ancient Macedonians had their own identity long before the Athenians decided to develop the Phoenician alphabet. Alexander the Great was equally as fascinated with the Persians as he was with the Athenians. I do not know what you mean by "Hellenicized" but some historians describe a Hellenistic period which other than adopting the Phoenician derived alphabet, means very little. Surely the complete subjugation of the Hellenic city states and beyond is much more appropriately described as a Macedonian period. What precisely is our "Slavic culture"? You would have to define what context you are using "Slavic" in. I genuinely cannot say I feel a close bond with Russians. Are they "Slavic" in the same sense?

Again, tell us your understanding of the Ohrid agreement and the constitutional amendments that ensued.

You are not informed enough and not capable of delivering a relevant Macedonian message Ivo.

[EgejskaMakedonia]

I know they don’t. And I never claimed to speak on behalf of all Macedonians. But acting like entire world is against us is not doing us any good, that’s clear to me, so I’m ok with being in a minority view on that. Again, not the same as actively advocating a compromise - just trying to see it in perspective, and not as an existential threat.

Most of you seem to live in Australia, and I think someone is in Germany - tell me, what differences do you see between the political landscape there and in RoM? Why is it that we’re the much less successful country, in every sense? In large part, because we waste so much time trying to assert an identity that’s already successfully been asserted. It creates an insecure mindset, and contributes to instability.

The Ohrid agreement was practical - you oppose it on ideological grounds. But modern states don’t act like that - The British brought the Northern Irish into parliament, Australia and NZ bring in legislation to counter discrimination against ethnic minorities - seeing those things as mortal insults to a nation’s integrity, rather than necessary political maneouvring, is counterproductive. It makes no difference if Greece have these neuroses too, or if other countries do - the point is, we should move past it, and we’ll benefit.

In your first point you say that the Macedonians are acting as if the entire world is against them. Instead of highlighting the reason for this, that being the unjust acts committed against Macedonia and the Macedonian people, you say that we should brush it aside because it is a bad image? I respect that you are trying to look at this in a logical sense, but even doing so you lack common sense in this statement.

It is not the fault of the Macedonians that the 'whole world' seems to be against us, and therefore it is not our responsibility to compromise anything as the victim. You continually emphasize the perspective of other countries towards Macedonia as if you are self-conscious of being a Macedonian. Who cares what people think of Macedonia at the present time, people should admire that as Macedonians we are fighting for human rights and recognition. It is our duty to alter this perspective and expose the truth and seek justice for the Macedonians. You are doing the opposite by putting the interests of other nations before Macedonia's interests.

Obviously Macedonia is a lot weaker and poorer than the likes of Australia and Germany, thats something we can all agree on. You cannot blame this on asserting an identity, rather, have a look at what Macedonia has gone through in the past 100 years and even beyond. In this regard Australia cannot compare.
You say we are less successful in every sense?
Maybe we are less successful in being proud and representing our country of origin, you are certainly a good example of this.

As Risto said, I still believe you are unaware of the true implications of the Ohrid framework. I am by no means an expert on this 'agreement,' however I know enough to know that it is only undermining the Macedonians.

Lets see if you feel the same way in 10, 20 years from now if this framework stands. I may not be a fortune-teller but I assure you that spoiling the Albanian minority will have drastic consequences. They will want more and more, aim for a multi-ethnic state, then eventually they will want the whole country.

Move past what? It is not our fault our neighbours always seem to have a problem with us. By 'moving on,' do you suggest that we surrender our name and identity to the greeks?
Lets just forget about who we are and where we come from, at least that way we may have a chance of starring in a Jason Bourne like movie.

I respectfully request you remove that offensive article from the online Guardian website. I'm sure from the responses you've received many other Macedonians feel the same way.

[sf.]

1. I would like Ivo to confirm his involvement here on his facebook page, if he expects us to accept his authenticity.
2. I would like an answer to my original question, which has been asked by others repeatedly.
3. Then I will address the situation in Australia as well as his attitudes.

[Pelister]

Just another mouthpiece of the West. Another 'mouth' unable to defend our nationality on the basis of basic principles enshrined in international law. We have seen this kind of mind set rear its ugly face with some of the other lunatics of the diaspora in Washington, who have put foward the same case this guy is right now. The value of understanding 'context' is completely lost on him. Imagine suggesting we add a geographical determinant to the name of our State ? In which case we lose our nationality, and the New Greeks and Bulgarians who have been telling the rest of the world that there are no distinctive Macedonians per se anywhere - win. Imagine That is what this imbecile is proposing - at the very least.

Ivo Petkovski must be entirely oblivious to the the sacrifices made by millions of Macedonians to win their freedom and independance, their own state. Any mention of our rights under Greek domination, and Bulgarian domination? If the relationship between the New Greeks and the Macedonians, is not a relationship of domination, oppression and conquest - well, then what is? I mean he needs to make an effort or stop writing altogether. We are recognised by over 125 countries, and not recognised by how many - 2, 3, 4 + 1 Club ? I mean whatever happened to doing your best to asking for our rights, or pointing out the the New Greeks do not have a case, the terms they bring to the table are non-negotiable, and that the assumption they bring to the table are an attempt to complete their conquest and appropriate the name 'Macedonia' for themselves? I mean 'context' again. Why not point out the the New Greeks have a long history of appropriating all the high-sounding names in the region, dating back to 1830 ? Its not really 'theirs' and doesn't really belong to 'them' - does it ? If the purpose of this clown is to inform his readers, he has failed. Instead all we have seen from him is telling the 'politicians' what they already know is happening. This guy is part of the "establishment" pushing to have us change our name - that tiny group of 'Macedonians' fking us over one word at a time.

[Dejan]

I don't believe this Petkovski is a Macedonian at all. Not because of his anti Macedonian stance, but because he/she seems not to have a grasp on Macedonian matters. I'd like to be proven wrong, but i believe we Macedonians are being baited by an individual portraying himself as one of us. Don't fall for it...

[Rogi]

Ivo's use of words are no different to those of any other charlatan or fifth columnist.

Whilst equating his pseudo understanding of politics to a game and placing it on such a pedestal, he also completely eliminates or disregards any meaning of Macedonia's national identity, any purpose of the existence of the Republic of Macedonia, undermines the sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia and espouses a deep disrespect or a clear lack of understanding of Internationally accepted and codified Laws and Human Rights.

I wont delve into the historical fallacies, all of which are debatable, that he has accepted as foregone conclusions and facts.

He is using his post here, as little more than self promotion, a PR exercise if you will, and a promotion of his shameless and unsupported views. A charlatan or a fifth columnist; we've yet to determine which of the two, if not both.

At the conclusion of this thread, when all is said and done, I will offer a complete summary and rebuttal to all of his assertions and arguments, none of which are based on fact and none of which would indeed be worth responding to, had it not been for the abhorrence for his person.



That all said, the one reassuring thing I find with people such as the likes of Ivo Petkovski is that, despite him having written an article titled 'Being Macedonian', he knows very little on the subject and will leave no lasting impact.

More to the point however, those of his ilk are the one's who will over time entirely give up their Macedonian heritage, completely assimilating in their new homeland, in his case it may be England.

Furthermore, anyone he may have influenced, including his four year old son, will have no real understanding and knowledge of Macedonia and of Macedonian affairs, nor have any interest in Macedonia and Macedonian affairs.

Thus, perhaps you may call it the natural order of things, or some kind of natural selection, though the end result is that only the Macedonians who care to be Macedonian, will remain Macedonian and will impact on Macedonia.