International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Prolet]

International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

I wonder how far this will go

Thursday, 10 June 2010

Ambassador Nikola Dimitrov submitted Wednesday to the Hague-based International Court of Justice (ICJ) Macedonia's reply to the Greek counter-memorial on the lawsuit filed by Macedonia against Greece for breaching the bilateral 1995 Interim Agreement by blocking its NATO membership invitation at the Bucharest summit.

- We appreciate this opportunity in the second stage of written memorials in the proceedings to file our response to the Court, which we highly respect for being the chief judicial organ of the United Nations. Greece should make the next step, which is to submit its written memorial by October 27 2010 at the latest, Dimitrov stressed while handing over the reply.

The team engaged in preparing the reply is made up of local and foreign experts as well as of Foreign Ministry staff.

Greece is set to file a written memorial regarding Macedonia's arguments to ICJ by Oct. 27. It will complete the written phase, after which the Court should decide when to schedule the oral phase of the process. In line with ICJ rules, the content of the written memorials remains confidential until the start of the oral hearing i.e. an appropriate ruling of the Court.

On November 17 2008, the Republic of Macedonia brought a case against Greece in relation to the implementation of Article 11 Paragraph 1 from the Interim Agreement signed on September 13 1995.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/15291/1/

[Makedonetz]

Should we hold our breaths Prolet?

Hopefully a hearing is granted as greece put us through the wringer in the past denying us access maybe its our time to give them a taste of their own medicine.

[Risto the Great]

Just think, if Macedonia wins it will be able to force Greece into accepting that Macedonia MUST change its flag, that Macedonia cannot question what is being done with the Macedonian minority in Greece, that they MUST negotiate the Macedonian name ... the list goes on.

I hope we lose!

[Vangelovski]

Just think, if Macedonia wins it will be able to force Greece into accepting that Macedonia MUST change its flag, that Macedonia cannot question what is being done with the Macedonian minority in Greece, that they MUST negotiate the Macedonian name ... the list goes on.

I hope we lose!

RtG,

As usual, the Macedonian Government acted without thinking. A number of us criticised the ICJ action when it was undertaken in 2008. Although it remains to be seen, I can only see a lose-lose situation. If the Macedonian Government wins, it will further legitimise the treason and further entrench the Accord. If the Macedonian Government loses, it will most likely continue to idiotically implement the Accord to the letter, in order to maintain its "international image" and be a good vassal in the vain hope that its masters in Brussels and Washington will accept the servant as an "equal".

[Risto the Great]

RtG,

As usual, the Macedonian Government acted without thinking. A number of us criticised the ICJ action when it was undertaken in 2008. Although it remains to be seen, I can only see a lose-lose situation. If the Macedonian Government wins, it will further legitimise the treason and further entrench the Accord. If the Macedonian Government loses, it will most likely continue to idiotically implement the Accord to the letter, in order to maintain its "international image" and be a good vassal in the vain hope that its masters in Brussels and Washington will accept the servant as an "equal".

I totally agree and wonder if any "moderate" (=slave mentality) Macedonians have actually read the interim agreement.

[makalek]

Today FM Antonio Milososki said we are under strong international pressure for our name. I just can't believe how the EU continues to side with Greece with all the troubles they have caused them. It's undermining the credibility of the EU and NATO and reforms apply for all countries except for Macedonia. Everyone applauds the progress we have made and the reforms that have been implemented but we continue to be hold hostage by Greece and forced to change our name. We have already compromised by changing our flag and constitution and now they want us to change our name as well. Enough is enough. Also Crvenkovski recently has said we will not get a date for accession talks and making us look like the bad guys and that will give another reason for the EU to come up with an excuse on Monday. They will say our reforms our lacking which is not true and use these comments by Crvenkovski. That traitor is so desperate to get back into power that he continues to hurt Macedonia. His party SDSM continue to go back and forth with VMRO - DPMNE about silly things but they never tell their positions about the important issues. They say VMRO -DPMNE is anti-European and doesn't want Macedonia to enter EU and NATO but they never mention their positions. Everyone knows that we would already be a NATO and EU member if it wasn't for Greece's irresponsible behavior. What would SDSM do different? Would they change our name to enter EU and NATO? If not, what would make them different than VMRO - DPMNE? How will they enter NATO and EU without changing our name? But we all know it's just talk from Crvenkovski who is trying to win cheap political points at the country's expense.

Milososki confirms Macedonia is under strong pressure for name

Ohrid, 11 June 2010 (MIA) - Macedonia is under a strong pressure from the international community for urgent resolving of name dispute with Greece, FM Antonio Milososki stated in Ohrid.

- Macedonia is expected to pay Greece’s non-pragmatism with pragmatism, i.e. with reasonable behaviour to pay unreasonable and aggressive behaviour of Greece, Milososki said.

According to him, Greece still misuses its position even in the frames of mutual bilateral Macedonian – Greek dialogue where it tries to dictate the talks, to impose its solution instead giving space for mutual solution.

Milososki does not want to predict what will happen at EU Summit in Brussels, but said that this issue will still continue to be up-to-date. Milososki recommended that the Macedonian government in the next months would try to provide the country with more favourable positions and approach in forthcoming negotiations.

Milososki expects greatest support from Austria, which has special understanding for the Macedonian positions regarding the name dispute.

http://www.mia.com.mk/default.aspx?vId=74645473&lId=2&pmId=501

[Vangelovski]

I totally agree and wonder if any "moderate" (=slave mentality) Macedonians have actually read the interim agreement.

Having debated with them (the "moderates") over many years I can only conclude that they either: a) have not read the Interim Accord; b) do not understand the Interim Accord; or c) do not care about the effects of the Interim Accord.

Further, I am quite certain that none of them have read the Macedonian application to institute proceedings or understand what it is trying to achieve - i.e., ENFORCEMENT of the Interim Accord - and that is why they have this idiotic belief that if Macedonia "wins" the case, it will have the "legal" mandate to withdraw from the Accord (not that the Macedonians, in my opinion, need any "moral" or "legal" mandate that may or may not be provided by an unelected institution to declare it 'null and void', as the only authority they are required to respect is that of God, and within that framework, their own free will).

[Buktop]

What if they use the outcome of the case to remove ourselves from the interim accord while saving face? I don't see how any self respecting Macedonian government official would use the outcome of this case to continue the enforcement and legitimize the interim accord... I don't know why you guys feel that this case is only being pursued to enforce the accord, rather than to be used as a grounds to remove ourselves from it...

I have read the accord several times, I have also read the case overview multiple times, and it seems to me that the Macedonian government is not interested in perpetuating the agreement, nor what it stands for...

Us "Moderates" fully understand the arguments, we are not so focused on moral victory as we are on physical and psychological victory... To me, I see the world as flawed, and to view it through idealistic morals and principles is essentially Utopian. We "Moderates" have a more utilitarian view on Macedonian issues, the ends justify the means, to a degree, and if, after this 20 year dispute, Macedonia finds itself in better condition than when it began and enjoys full rights, freedoms and sovereignty, then this whole dispute we are having now will be meaningless. This is why I always say "we agree on the final goal, but disagree on the path to achievement."

As a Chinese proverb states "There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but the view is always the same."

[Vangelovski]

Buktop,

I told you 2 years ago to get your primary school teacher to explain the ICJ action to you.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

I told you 2 years ago to get your primary school teacher to explain the ICJ action to you.

At this point, I am able to realize that you yourself have no idea what the ICJ action is about...

What gives you the notion that the Macedonian government is seeking to further enforce and validate the Interim Agreement?

[Vangelovski]

At this point, I am able to realize that you yourself have no idea what the ICJ action is about...

What gives you the notion that the Macedonian government is seeking to further enforce and validate the Interim Agreement?

Because they have asked the ICJ to ENFORCE it. Buktop, you would have us believe up is down, black is white and in is out.

[Risto the Great]

Astounding Buktop, are you head of policy at UMD or what?

[Vangelovski]

So that the UMDovci cannot LIE and MISLEAD the well-meaning. This is exactly what the Macedonian Government is trying to do at the ICJ (ENFORCEMENT OF THE INTERIM ACCORD):

The Applicant [Macedonia] seeks to establish the violation by the Respondent [Greece] of its legal obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1 of the Interim Accord and to ensure that the Respondent abides by its obligations under Article l l of the Interim Accord in relation to invitations or applications that might be made to or by the Applicant for membership of NATO or any other international, multilateral or regional organisation or institution of which the Respondent is a member. The Applicant brings this case to protect its rights under the Interim Accord...

...The Applicant has met its obligations under the Interim Accord not to seek to be designated as a member of NATO with any designation other than 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. In the circumstances, the Respondent's objection to the Applicant's NATO membership represents a flagrant violation of its obligations under Article l l of the Interim Accord.

The Applicant requests the Court:

(i) to adjudge and declare that the Respondent, through its State organs and agents, has violated its obligations under Article l l, paragraph 1 of the Interim Accord;

(ii) to order that the Respondent immediately take all necessary steps to comply with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph I of the Interim Accord, and to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to the Applicant's membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation andor of any other "international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions" of which the Respondent is a member, in circumstances where the Applicant is to be referred to in such organizations or institutions by the designation provided for in paragraph 2 of United Nations Security Council Kesolution 8 17 ( 1993).

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/142/14879.pdf

The Macedonian Government is seeking to ENFORCE the Interim Accord NOT withdraw from it or any other ridiculous LIE the UMDovci are trying to promote in order to garner support for this ICJ action. The Macedonian Government is trying to prove Greece violated the Accord and asking the ICJ to order Greece to COMPLY with the Interim Accord- I.E. ENFORCE IT - thereby cemeting it even further with a "favourable" Court ruling.

The SHAMELESS support provided for this action by the likes of Buktop, who would like us to believe Macedonia is doing the opposite of what it is actually doing, is astounding!

[Buktop]

So that the UMDovci cannot LIE and MISLEAD the well-meaning. This is exactly what the Macedonian Government is trying to do at the ICJ (ENFORCEMENT OF THE INTERIM ACCORD):

The Applicant [Macedonia] seeks to establish the violation by the Respondent [Greece] of its legal obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1 of the Interim Accord and to ensure that the Respondent abides by its obligations under Article l l of the Interim Accord in relation to invitations or applications that might be made to or by the Applicant for membership of NATO or any other international, multilateral or regional organisation or institution of which the Respondent is a member. The Applicant brings this case to protect its rights under the Interim Accord...

...The Applicant has met its obligations under the Interim Accord not to seek to be designated as a member of NATO with any designation other than 'the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. In the circumstances, the Respondent's objection to the Applicant's NATO membership represents a flagrant violation of its obligations under Article l l of the Interim Accord.

The Applicant requests the Court:

(i) to adjudge and declare that the Respondent, through its State organs and agents, has violated its obligations under Article l l, paragraph 1 of the Interim Accord;

(ii) to order that the Respondent immediately take all necessary steps to comply with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph I of the Interim Accord, and to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to the Applicant's membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation andor of any other "international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions" of which the Respondent is a member, in circumstances where the Applicant is to be referred to in such organizations or institutions by the designation provided for in paragraph 2 of United Nations Security Council Kesolution 8 17 ( 1993).

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/142/14879.pdf

The Macedonian Government is seeking to ENFORCE the Interim Accord NOT withdraw from it or any other ridiculous LIE the UMDovci are trying to promote in order to garner support for this ICJ action. The Macedonian Government is trying to prove Greece violated the Accord and asking the ICJ to order Greece to COMPLY with the Interim Accord- I.E. ENFORCE IT - thereby cemeting it even further with a "favourable" Court ruling.

The SHAMELESS support provided for this action by the likes of Buktop, who would like us to believe Macedonia is doing the opposite of what it is actually doing, is astounding!

And do you really believe Greece is going to comply? What happens if they don't comply? Actually, I should say, WHEN they don't comply...

You really don't have a clue my friend...

[Risto the Great]

And do you really believe Greece is going to comply? What happens if they don't comply? Actually, I should say, WHEN they don't comply...

You really don't have a clue my friend...

I am not sure where you have been Buktop. Greece has already not complied. Macedonia has complied with everything. It has been 15 years and nothing has improved in Macedonia because of it. You are so compliant.