International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Pelister]

I dont get it.

Why would the Hagues judgment have any influence on greeces objection to a sovereign independent neighboring country. What does it have to do with it?

Its a sham.

The way I understand it if the Hague judgement favors the Macedonians, then Macedonia enter NATO by the acronym FYROM.

[George S.]

We all forget our biggest problem is it's own people.Will the government stay steadfast & committed unwavering or will it eventually falter.Whilst we have Gruevski & ivanoff not wanting a change.What happens if they work on them, Who? & get them tochange the name eg it was done with the flag allready.We can think all we want but all it takes is someone else to change their mind. How sure are we,what gurantee have we got??

[Jankovska]

Ok, let's look at it this way- What will happen to Macedonia if it pulls out of the name talks?
1) Won't receive EU invitation (we won't receive it anyway till Greece is part of the EU)
2)Won't join NATo ( We didn't anyway)
3)Possible embargo (We survived one when everyone else was in war and we were poor and very very fragile)
Hm according to this we will not move one step back really, we will stay where we are with one difference, we will stop playing titara with our name.
We can even use the UN and the 126 countries that have recognised anf take it from there. Greece doesn't like it, oh well not our problem
Now I wonder why is the goverment staying in this talks? Another bunch of traitors possibly?

[Risto the Great]

Spot on Jankovska.

[Prolet]

Greece to present Wednesday counter arguments at ICJ hearing

Greece is to present Wednesday its counter arguments at International Court of Justice in the Hague regarding the lawsuit filed by Macedonia against Athens due to violation of 1995 interim agreement by blocking Macedonia's invitation for NATO membership at Bucharest Summit.

Macedonia submitted its evidences backing up the suit on July 20, 2009, after which Greece had 6-month deadline to prepare its defence, which expires tomorrow.

The meeting will focus on procedural issues regarding the future course of the process.

Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki and Ambassador in Netherlands Nikola Dimitrov are Macedonia's representatives, accompanied by Croatian lawyer Budislav Vukas as ad hoc judge.

Athens will be represented by the Greek ambassador to the Netherlands Konstantinos Rallis, ambassador Yiorgos Savvaidis and Foreign Ministry advisor Maria Telalian. Athens University professor Emmanuel Rukunas will be Greece’s ad hoc judge.

Macedonia took Greece before the International Court of Justice in November 17, 2008. Skopje argues that Athens violated the United Nations-sponsored 1995 Interim Accord signed by both sides by practically blocking its neighbour from joining NATO in April. According to the accord, Athens obliged not to block Skopje from entering international organisations as long as it is done under Macedonia’s UN provisional reference, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

"We have serious arguments and I believe the completion of this process before the Court in The Hague would impose a responsibility for honoring the Interim accord. We plan to finish this process successfully without an alternative," FM Antonio Milososki recently stated.

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/11936/1/

[Bill77]

A no win situation for Macedonians prolet. Lets say the judgement favours Macedonia. What will hapen? Nothing... No one can enforce anything towards Greece. The Greeks will say its irelevant and the status quo will remain.

If it favours Greece, again the status quo will remain, But, we will be flooded with Youtube productions, and racist scums hiting our forums and every web site posible with racist taunts. Also, this will be twisted somehow by the Greek government and there diaspora, as if the courts agreed that Macedonia is Greek and we will have to put up with I told you so comments.

The whole process is Bull dust but only have our selves to blame.

[Buktop]

A no win situation for Macedonians prolet. Lets say the judgement favours Macedonia. What will hapen? Nothing... No one can enforce anything towards Greece. The Greeks will say its irelevant and the status quo will remain.

If it favours Greece, again the status quo will remain, But, we will be flooded with Youtube productions, and racist scums hiting our forums and every web site posible with racist taunts. Also, this will be twisted somehow by the Greek government and there diaspora, as if the courts agreed that Macedonia is Greek and we will have to put up with I told you so comments.

The whole process is Bull dust but only have our selves to blame.

It may result in the removal of the compromise as criteria for EU and NATO.

[Pelister]

The Interim Accord is a sham.

What the Accord proposes is that Macedonia be admitted to these organizations by the name FYROM - until such time as a "Solution" with Greece can be found.

UMD back the Interim Accord completely. They have supporters of it and the negotiations since day one.

We should never have been party to such an Accord, because it terms negate our existence, and our legal rights.

[Pelister]

It may result in the removal of the compromise as criteria for EU and NATO.

We a load of garbage.

The Accord states that Macedonia be admitted by the term FYROM.

FYROM is a compromise.

The fact that the Macedonians are pursuing this bullshit is just fantastic and incredible.

The Macedonians basically saying that they accept FYROM as a compromise - until a "solution" with Greece can be found.

What is amazing is that UMD fully back the Interim Accord and other Western structures that negate our existence.

These structures the Macedonians are chasing and signing up to undermine our legal rights, our national rights and every other thing that defines us.

Why not take Greece to the ICJ for the abuse of Macedonian minority rights?
Why not go to the ICJ to have the term FYROM overturned at the United Nations and our own constitutional name admitted?

What is the irrational and slavish discourse pushed by UMD and its followers that we should be working with and alongside these anti-Macedonian structures ?

[Prolet]

Pelister, With a win in ICJ the Interim agreement will not exist.

[Risto the Great]

Pelister, With a win in ICJ the Interim agreement will not exist.

Actually, it looks like Macedonia is going to court to enforce the Interim agreement.

[Bill77]

Pelister, With a win in ICJ the Interim agreement will not exist.

All its going to be is a psycological victory. Evan if the rulling has power to remove the name issue as a abstical (which i dought), Greece still has a veto and will choose another path/excuse. Then we are back at square one again. If not, the best case senario will be, enter these clubs with the name of "Former Yugoslav Republic Of Macedonia". we don't win again.

[Prolet]

Risto, We win the court case and the court will order Greece to allow us into Nato and EU under the temporary name, its more then likely that Greece will ignore this and we will then be forced to rip up the agreement which means whatever was signed there becomes invalid. We then go to the UN and seek our options, push for a 2/3 majority vote and so forth.

We can then talk about changing our flag back too, i know Boris Zmejkovski will be in favor of it.

[Pelister]

That could definitely happen Prolet.

I think your assesment is pretty much spot on. It is a real possibility that Greece will block us anyway.


If Greece do not block us it is not a win for Macedonia. We are admitted permanently by the term FYROM which is a compromize in itself, until a solution is found. What if the Macedonian People don't want a solution and want the negotiations to end ? Think about where that Now leaves the Macedonian government, which has agreed with the I.C that its entry into these organizations is based on its finding a solution. It has isolated the Macedonian people, and isolated itself ! What a bunch of fking morons.

A win for Macedonia would be admission to NATO by our Constitutional Name, or no admission at all. The people in the government and at UMD are simply leaching and sucking whatever they can get from a political point of view out of our current political predicament and misfortune, rather than taking an actual principled stance against the terms put to us by Greece, and now obviously by the E.U and NATO.

Isn't there a lesson here ? Isn't the lesson that two decades of dancing to the tune of Greece, the E.U and NATO - HAS FAILED.

It seems to me that Macedonians always pursue the most irrational and unreasonable pathways toward their own self-destruction, even when more reasonable and sensible alternatives are avialable to them.

Why not put those energies and resources into convincing the Macedonian government that it is on the wrong path.

[Prolet]

I agree Paul it wont be a victory if we join under our temporary name however Greece will no longer be able to threaten us with vetoes. They will loose their leverage and we can then seek other options while at the same time we wont be breaking off the negotiations we will be going to the UN as Nikola Gruevski mentioned in an interview i believe it was on Janko's show when he was asked about going to the UN, he said that its in their plans to do so in the future but not right now.