International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Volk]

Absolutely NOT!

On the other-hand He-Man laments the fact Macedonia was the ONLY state to leave the Yugoslav Federation without a shot being fired! because had war happened it would have toughened up Macedonian's resolve and shaped their determination for a nation! Drop-kicks, there would Not have been a Macedonia if it came to war - what army did Macedonia have??? What strategy would have prevented obliteration???

Thats a pretty self defeatist statement. Macedonia had an army (including fighters and attack helicopters, JNA stripped it when they withdrew)

Think the point should be, war should be avoided and it was.

[fyrOM]

Fyrom, I disagree with you where ……if there was a war in Macedonia there would have been no Macedonia left. The Serbs committed atrocities in Bosnia, is there still a Bosnia? The Serbs did the same in Kosovo, is there still a Kosovo?

I understand there would be suffering but had there been a war, there still would have been a Macedonia. Why didn't the Serbs start something...? Because they knew the Macedonian land wasn’t rightfully theirs. They had no real reason to come in and fight for it.

Technically you are right Stojance, there would have been a Macedonia in some form.

If it came to an all-out onslaught a lot of Macedonia's teens and up would have been killed simply because of the shear overwhelming disproportion in both man numbers and weapons ie jet planes/bombers. It wouldn't have come to this firstly because the Serbs wouldn't have been let to do it and secondly the Serbs would not have wanted to attack Macedonia - I was just saying if you remove these 2 criterias it would have been a blood-bath. In any event, why have deaths if you can still get the job done without any? -just so Macedonia can say, "see we are tough" like some on this site are saying?

A war with Serbia may have dragged the West in to intervene but it would have been more for the Albanians sake - sad but true - as a Macedonia in such a conflict would have provided the right pretext for a split of the nation by ethnic lines by the West. If Macedonia did/does anything to 'self-destruct' it's no skin off the West's noses as they would not have to deal with a 'Macedonian issue', but with No excuse existing, the West could not/cannot show themselves as hypocrites and aggressors to attack Macedonia.

Croatia, and Bosnia are a different situation because they have much larger populations (and also received help from the West and their diaspora). The West stood back in Croatia as it suited the West's purpose and eastern Croatia suffered. In Bosnia the West helped largely because of the Muslims and by the time Kosovo became a hot-spot the West were in there in a hurry, again for the Muslims, leaving the Serb population to suffer.

Macedonia was a different set of circumstances and hence much different outcome. There was no need for a war with Serbia and both the Macedonians and Serbs knew it.

There is and will be a Macedonia as Macedonia.

[fyrOM]

Thats a pretty self defeatist statement. Macedonia had an army (including fighters and attack helicopters, JNA stripped it when they withdrew)

True, but as it was still JNA, not all those resources were in Macedonian control.

This part of the discussion is hypothetical - a different outcome was achieved.

Think the point should be, war should be avoided and it was.

Absolutely right. There is No need for war if you can achieve the same result without it. Macedonia played it smart - it was only the latter leaders and events that set the country back most unnecessarily and those traitors and their families should be remembered as such.

[fyrOM]

Macedonian President is expected within tomorrow's visit of Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Macedonia to hear their position and views regarding the process that runs in the UN with Greece.

- Russia is a member of the Security Council, she admitted under its constitutional name, it uses in bilateral relations and it's never any dispute about them, "Ivanov said and clarified that the announced visit of Lavrov is part of the celebration of 150 years from the opening the first consulate in Macedonia.

http://www.vest.com.mk/?ItemID=476D0AD7FBDC0747A04EC442D01FB030

With China on one side and Russia on the other and Turkey guarding our back the real picture will start emerging.

This post is premature, but only here to document it for later use.

[indigen]

If it came to an all-out onslaught a lot of Macedonia's teens and up would have been killed simply because of the shear overwhelming disproportion in both man numbers and weapons ie jet planes/bombers.

It wouldn't have come to this firstly because the Serbs wouldn't have been let to do it and secondly the Serbs would not have wanted to attack Macedonia -

I was just saying if you remove these 2 criterias it would have been a blood-bath. In any event, why have deaths if you can still get the job done without any? -just so Macedonia can say, "see we are tough" like some on this site are saying?

IS THERE ANY LOGIC OR SENSE IN WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE?

Why you are still allowed (by the MTO Admin) to pollute numerous threads with sheer spam is beyond (my) comprehension.

[Soldier of Macedon]

There is Nothing inconsistent in anything I have said. The fact you are trying to make-out like there is says you either have no clue or more likely, are grasping at straws to make me look illogical to then try and cast doubt on my other posts (he's just a nut, don't listen to him) - ie that the government has a plan and is putting action into it bit by bit.

Your inconsistencies (and stupidities) go well beyond your words on this forum. You are a deluded nutcase, clearly, as you're still harping on about this government 'plan' to save Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17888/2/

Athens is considering the option to nullify the 1995 Interim Agreement with Macedonia after facing a legal defeat at the Hague, says yesterday's edition of Greek daily Kathimerini.

Stavros Ligeros, the author of the article claims if Greece had quit the Agreement earlier, Skopje wouldn't have had the opportunity to sue Athens. Now, says Ligeros, Greece is looking at an embarassing outcome, losing a legal challenge at the ICJ. Athens should have never allowed a political problem with Skopje to turn into a legal problem, says Ligeros.

Greek Media blames the former government led by Karamanlis, but also the current for not withdrawing from the Agreement.

To make matters worse for the Greek side, its media mentions Evangelos Kofos and Christos Rozakis who in 1996 and 2001 said Greece had given up its right to blackmail/block Macedonia on its path to NATO and the EU. In a way, both Kofos and Rozakis had written Macedonia's lawsuit against Greece at the ICJ.

Macedonian analyst are not surprised by Greece's moves and consideration of abandoning the 1995 Interim Agreement. The fact that Athens is looking to quit the interim agreement is a sign that official Athens if not confident then is certainly expecting to lose the lawsuit at the ICJ.

Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country, however the blockades are in place for several years now, in other words nothing changes. Once the agreement is abandoned, Athens can no longer make requests on which symbols, flags, (Kutlesh) sun, or names Macedonia uses.

Any further updates on this front? Is Greece going to nullify the 1995 handshake between Macedonia's external enemies and traitors within? Is Gruevski ready to reveal the 'master plan' and deliver the 'killer blow', like some people have naively suggested? What did Macedonia gain out of this so-called 'victory'?

[ennea]

Never trust MINA news. Their bullshit is usually obvious if you read for a second time what they write.
Greece=Lygeros? Nope.
Was it even an article? Nope. A rather short comment (submitted in blue color)
Have Lygeros opinions any importance in Greece? Hell no.
Does the whole story make ANY sense? Uh... no.

Προ ημερών συζητήθηκε στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο της Χάγης η προσφυγή των Σκοπίων εναντίον της Αθήνας για παραβίαση της Ενδιάμεσης Συμφωνίας (1995), η οποία απαγορεύει στην Ελλάδα να εμποδίσει την ένταξη της ΠΓΔΜ σε διεθνείς οργανισμούς. Είναι αλήθεια ότι η κυβέρνηση Καραμανλή είχε δηλώσει πως θα ασκήσει βέτο στη σύνοδο κορυφής του ΝΑΤΟ στο Βουκουρέστι (2008), αλλά τελικώς δεν χρειάστηκε. Η ΠΓΔΜ έμεινε εκτός με συλλογική απόφαση της Συμμαχίας κι όχι λόγω ελληνικού βέτο.
Υπενθυμίζουμε ότι, στις αρχές του 2008, η Αθήνα διασύνδεσε την ένταξη του γειτονικού κράτους στους ευρωατλαντικούς θεσμούς με την επίλυση του προβλήματος της ονομασίας, προκειμένου να υποχρεώσει τα Σκόπια σ’ ένα συμβιβασμό. Η πολιτική «πρώτα συμφωνία και μετά ένταξη», όμως, βρίσκεται σε αντίφαση με την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, η οποία έληξε το 2002 και ισχύει επειδή καμία από τις δύο πλευρές δεν έχει αποσυρθεί. Μπορεί, τελικώς, στο Βουκουρέστι να μη χρειάστηκε το βέτο, αλλά ο Καραμανλής πήγε έτοιμος να το ασκήσει. Εάν η Ελλάδα είχε αποσυρθεί από την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, η προσφυγή των Σκοπίων στη Χάγη θα είχε ακυρωθεί. Υπογραμμίζουμε ότι η απόσυρση δεν θα είχε επιπτώσεις στις διαπραγματεύσεις για το όνομα, δεδομένου ότι αυτές πραγματοποιούνται επί τη βάσει απόφασης του Συμβουλίου Ασφαλείας (1993).
Το υπουργείο Εξωτερικών δηλώνει αισιόδοξο για τη δίκη. Γιατί, όμως, η Ελλάδα διακινδύνευσε, αποδεχόμενη τη μετατροπή μιας πολιτικής διένεξης σε νομική μάχη, όταν μπορούσε να το αποφύγει; Μη αποσυρόμενη από την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, η κυβέρνηση Καραμανλή άφησε ανοιχτή μία «κερκόπορτα», την οποία δεν έκλεισε ούτε η κυβέρνηση Παπανδρέου. Λόγω του Αιγαίου, η Χάγη έχει προσλάβει διαστάσεις ταμπού για την ελληνική διπλωματία. Απ’ αυτή τη στήλη έχουμε από το 2008 προειδοποιήσει ότι, αφήνοντας εκτεθειμένη την Ελλάδα στον κίνδυνο μιας καταδικαστικής απόφασης, οι κυβερνώντες διέπραξαν ένα διά παραλείψεως δυνάμει έγκλημα εναντίον του εθνικού συμφέροντος. Ορισμένοι κύκλοι θα επικαλεστούν μία καταδικαστική απόφαση για να κλείσουν όπως όπως το θέμα. Σ’ αυτό ελπίζουν οι Σλαβομακεδόνες για να ξεφύγουν από τη διπλωματική μέγγενη, στην οποία τους έχει εγκλωβίσει η πολιτική «πρώτα συμφωνία και μετά ένταξη».

[makedonche]

Never trust MINA news. Their bullshit is usually obvious if you read for a second time what they write.
Greece=Lygeros? Nope.
Was it even an article? Nope. A rather short comment (submitted in blue color)
Have Lygeros opinions any importance in Greece? Hell no.
Does the whole story make ANY sense? Uh... no.

Προ ημερών συζητήθηκε στο Διεθνές Δικαστήριο της Χάγης η προσφυγή των Σκοπίων εναντίον της Αθήνας για παραβίαση της Ενδιάμεσης Συμφωνίας (1995), η οποία απαγορεύει στην Ελλάδα να εμποδίσει την ένταξη της ΠΓΔΜ σε διεθνείς οργανισμούς. Είναι αλήθεια ότι η κυβέρνηση Καραμανλή είχε δηλώσει πως θα ασκήσει βέτο στη σύνοδο κορυφής του ΝΑΤΟ στο Βουκουρέστι (2008), αλλά τελικώς δεν χρειάστηκε. Η ΠΓΔΜ έμεινε εκτός με συλλογική απόφαση της Συμμαχίας κι όχι λόγω ελληνικού βέτο.
Υπενθυμίζουμε ότι, στις αρχές του 2008, η Αθήνα διασύνδεσε την ένταξη του γειτονικού κράτους στους ευρωατλαντικούς θεσμούς με την επίλυση του προβλήματος της ονομασίας, προκειμένου να υποχρεώσει τα Σκόπια σ’ ένα συμβιβασμό. Η πολιτική «πρώτα συμφωνία και μετά ένταξη», όμως, βρίσκεται σε αντίφαση με την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, η οποία έληξε το 2002 και ισχύει επειδή καμία από τις δύο πλευρές δεν έχει αποσυρθεί. Μπορεί, τελικώς, στο Βουκουρέστι να μη χρειάστηκε το βέτο, αλλά ο Καραμανλής πήγε έτοιμος να το ασκήσει. Εάν η Ελλάδα είχε αποσυρθεί από την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, η προσφυγή των Σκοπίων στη Χάγη θα είχε ακυρωθεί. Υπογραμμίζουμε ότι η απόσυρση δεν θα είχε επιπτώσεις στις διαπραγματεύσεις για το όνομα, δεδομένου ότι αυτές πραγματοποιούνται επί τη βάσει απόφασης του Συμβουλίου Ασφαλείας (1993).
Το υπουργείο Εξωτερικών δηλώνει αισιόδοξο για τη δίκη. Γιατί, όμως, η Ελλάδα διακινδύνευσε, αποδεχόμενη τη μετατροπή μιας πολιτικής διένεξης σε νομική μάχη, όταν μπορούσε να το αποφύγει; Μη αποσυρόμενη από την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, η κυβέρνηση Καραμανλή άφησε ανοιχτή μία «κερκόπορτα», την οποία δεν έκλεισε ούτε η κυβέρνηση Παπανδρέου. Λόγω του Αιγαίου, η Χάγη έχει προσλάβει διαστάσεις ταμπού για την ελληνική διπλωματία. Απ’ αυτή τη στήλη έχουμε από το 2008 προειδοποιήσει ότι, αφήνοντας εκτεθειμένη την Ελλάδα στον κίνδυνο μιας καταδικαστικής απόφασης, οι κυβερνώντες διέπραξαν ένα διά παραλείψεως δυνάμει έγκλημα εναντίον του εθνικού συμφέροντος. Ορισμένοι κύκλοι θα επικαλεστούν μία καταδικαστική απόφαση για να κλείσουν όπως όπως το θέμα. Σ’ αυτό ελπίζουν οι Σλαβομακεδόνες για να ξεφύγουν από τη διπλωματική μέγγενη, στην οποία τους έχει εγκλωβίσει η πολιτική «πρώτα συμφωνία και μετά ένταξη».

Ennea
Stop dribbling rubbish and piss off to some greek forum where someone might be stupid enough to believe your rants! Since when has Mina lied?
How about you back up these claims with facts and references or I will request the moderators send you packing back to your racist nazi country where you belong!

[ennea]

Ennea
Stop dribbling rubbish and piss off to some greek forum where someone might be stupid enough to believe your rants! Since when has Mina lied?
How about you back up these claims with facts and references or I will request the moderators send you packing back to your racist nazi country where you belong!

When did MINA lie?
Let's start with the title:
Facing ICJ Defeat, Greece Looking to Quit Agreement
And what about the introductory paragraph
Athens is considering the option to nullify the 1995 Interim Agreement with Macedonia after facing a legal defeat at the Hague, says yesterday's edition of Greek daily Kathimerini.
Uh… no it doesn’t say so.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Ennea, your media outlets can hardly claim to be beacons of objectivity. Do you think Greece will ever nullify the agreement?

[makedonche]

When did MINA lie?
Let's start with the title:
Facing ICJ Defeat, Greece Looking to Quit Agreement
And what about the introductory paragraph
Athens is considering the option to nullify the 1995 Interim Agreement with Macedonia after facing a legal defeat at the Hague, says yesterday's edition of Greek daily Kathimerini.
Uh… no it doesn’t say so.

ennea
so which part is a lie? which part is unreliable? where did they get their information from?
P.S. post a translated version of the daily kathimerini they are referring to! and while your'e at it just check with everybody in Athens to make sure nobody said what Mina is referring to.

[ennea]

Do you think Greece will ever nullify the agreement?

There's no such intention, but "ever" doesn't help the question. For 15 years, both parts are on a moderate approach path leading to
(a) compromise, or
(b) the (eternal) promise of a compromise.
Their attitude suggests a diplomatic, non-aggressive stance. Any different move (though valid and legitimate) goes the opposite direction.
I can't really prophesy but nothing lasts for ever. At some point in the future something, somewhere will happen (just as 2004 in Cyprus) and act as a catalyst in this slow progress or no-progress.

[ennea]

ennea
so which part is a lie? which part is unreliable? where did they get their information from?
P.S. post a translated version of the daily kathimerini they are referring to! and while your'e at it just check with everybody in Athens to make sure nobody said what Mina is referring to.

The title and basic idea. Yep, that is the "information", the blue part. You're not impressed? Well you shouldn't. That's all. This short comment in Kathimerini (=Daily) by journalist Stavros Lygeros fueled the MINA article. I can't translate it all, but the end of the middle paragraph contains his suggestion.

If Greece had withdrawn from the Interim Agreement, Skopje’s appeal to Hague would be canceled. We emphasize that the withdrawal would not affect the negotiations over the name since they are based on Security Council Resolution (1993).

He's entitled to his opinion but the "not affect the negotiations" is far from true. Also this is not an article, an analysis or something and didn't fuel any public dialogue or comments by politicians in Greece.
I'm familiar with MINA and their weekly masterpieces on Greece. Here's their latest reliable "news".

Greece Can't Repay Loans, Wants to Exit Euro Zone
Greece's economic problems are massive, with protests against the government being held almost daily. Now Prime Minister George Papandreou apparently feels he has no other option: German media has obtained information from German government sources knowledgeable of the situation in Athens indicating that Papandreou's government is considering abandoning the euro and reintroducing its own currency

Well, he's not considering it.

[makedonche]

The title and basic idea. Yep, that is the "information", the blue part. You're not impressed? Well you shouldn't. That's all. This short comment in Kathimerini (=Daily) by journalist Stavros Lygeros fueled the MINA article. I can't translate it all, but the end of the middle paragraph contains his suggestion.

If Greece had withdrawn from the Interim Agreement, Skopje’s appeal to Hague would be canceled. We emphasize that the withdrawal would not affect the negotiations over the name since they are based on Security Council Resolution (1993).

He's entitled to his opinion but the "not affect the negotiations" is far from true. Also this is not an article, an analysis or something and didn't fuel any public dialogue or comments by politicians in Greece.
I'm familiar with MINA and their weekly masterpieces on Greece. Here's their latest reliable "news".

Greece Can't Repay Loans, Wants to Exit Euro Zone
Greece's economic problems are massive, with protests against the government being held almost daily. Now Prime Minister George Papandreou apparently feels he has no other option: German media has obtained information from German government sources knowledgeable of the situation in Athens indicating that Papandreou's government is considering abandoning the euro and reintroducing its own currency

Well, he's not considering it.

ennea,
You have proven nothing other than to substantiate Minas right to publish information and quote it's source! You haven't proved unreliability or lies for that matter!
Well, he's not considering it - and you would know this because you live together or have daily briefings on what he is considering or not considering?