International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Bill77]

I dont get it.

Why would the Hagues judgment have any influence on greeces objection to a sovereign independent neighboring country. What does it have to do with it?

It means Sweet F A. A judgment favouring Macedonia Is one thing, But The Hagues implementing any recomendations (if any) toward Greece is another. What are the chances of Europe pressing Greece to folow rules or Judgements made towards them? more of a chance for hell to freeze over.

I would also like feedback on my folowing question.
Does Greece use our Airspace and borders to deal with the rest of Europe. If so, how freaquent.

What is the posibility and ramification, of Macedonia blockading the use?

[George S.]

It means Sweet F A. A judgment favouring Macedonia Is one thing, But The Hagues implementing any recomendations (if any) toward Greece is another. What are the chances of Europe pressing Greece to folow rules or Judgements made towards them? more of a chance for hell to freeze over.

I would also like feedback on my folowing question.
Does Greece use our Airspace and borders to deal with the rest of Europe. If so, how freaquent.

What is the posibility and ramification, of Macedonia blockading the use?

I don't think Greece wil abide by any judgements reached.THey'll just ignore them.Who is going to enforce them?
Greece violates Macedonian airspace all the time & actually laughs away
when it is told it is tresspassing on Macedonian territory.They were once on tv saying what will skopje do send us a policeman to arest us.(heavy Laughter & ridicule followed)In one newspaper cartoon they had
a cartoon with a greek airline & airforce with the monkeydonia insignia chasing them.
Greece is not scared of Macedonia at all,& above all Greece doesn't even recognise it's neighbour.

[Bill77]

I don't think Greece wil abide by any judgements reached.THey'll just ignore them.Who is going to enforce them?
Greece violates Macedonian airspace all the time & actually laughs away
when it is told it is tresspassing on Macedonian territory.They were once on tv saying what will skopje do send us a policeman to arest us.(heavy Laughter & ridicule followed)In one newspaper cartoon they had
a cartoon with a greek airline & airforce with the monkeydonia insignia chasing them.
Greece is not scared of Macedonia at all,& above all Greece doesn't even recognise it's neighbour.

George lets be fair dinkum about this. If Macedonia want's to atempt to block the airspace they can. evan though we are a small nation and a smaller airforce with minimal air craft, we are still capable of sending piolots to intervene there flights. This is not an issue regardless of what those Arabs joke about. The real issue is, A) do we want to escalate the tension and play there games, B) whould we upset the nations that are on our side by showing agression C) how leagal would this action be. Do we have the right?

[Bill77]

Macedonia’s “name” issue: a UN Sponsored Hostage Negotiations

Macedonia’s “name” issue: a UN Sponsored Hostage Negotiations



Thanks to Alexander Bilbilov for this post. Just want to share it.

For the past 15 or more years we, the Republic of Macedonia have been in a process of resolving an issue with Greece, regarding our constitutional name - the Republic of Macedonia. This process is labeled as negotiations, actually UN-sponsored negotiations, under the mediation of Matthew Nimetz the UN “Special” Representative. This process was imposed on the Macedonian government to end the so called “name issue” dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia.

If we look as the definition of negotiation we find that it’s a dialogue intended to resolve disputes. It’s meant to produce results and ultimately an agreement upon courses of action, to make it so for individual or collective advantage and craft outcomes to satisfy both parties’ interests. Basically find common ground where both sides are comfortable with and life can move on.

The process that we are involved in actually has a mediator and it is a sub form of alternative dispute resolution. This process aims to assist the two disputants in reaching an agreement through an impartial party serving as a mediator. Both parties at the beginning define and determine the conditions of dispute and possible settlements reached. The impartial mediator serves as a bridge converging positions of both parties involved in the negotiations and proposes a result a process or a result which both parties find acceptable and brings the process closer to its goal. The impartial individual mediating needs to take the parties through cognitive process of reconciliation. This is an interdependent process where opposed sides come familiar with the position of the other side and the opposing terms and come out with an interpretation which leads to the proposal to an acceptable solution.

But what if the conditions change continuously and the focus broadens with each step deluding the initial agreed terms for the negotiation? What if the change in terms changes the goal of the negotiations? All terms were pre-agreed at the start of the negotiations and one sided additions especially form the imposing side makes this more like a black mail then negotiations. Who should say – STOP to this continual change conditions?

Greece will not halt the process for sure and the mediator does not care because he is impartial. We haven’t raised our voice because we are more concerned with the opinion of the international community and we’re keeping the “process” live to look “constructive” but we have forgotten our national interest and the preservation of our nation, people and identity. We have forgotten that the natural state of being is not to be held hostage through negotiation but being free as any people in a modern sovereign country free to express ones free will and live free of blackmail and torment.

Something is very wrong here and I am not just stressing about the position of one of the sides in the negotiations but the conditions of the negotiations and the objectiveness of the “impartial” mediator and the sponsoring agency - UN. Allowing this process is a crime is that everyone is ignorant and to cowardly to speak out loud that Macedonia needs to pull out. The process is rotten within its core and it compromises the Macedonian side and hurts the integrity of the UN.

Ever since the negotiation started we have not moved an inch forward - quite the contrary we have been moving backwards. Macedonia was forced to negotiate about something that no nation in this world has ever been forced to – its name. The sole reason for the dispute became not so sole when new conditions were thrown on the table by the Greek side. After the “name issue” itself the Greeks brought the: language, identity, exclusivity on terminology, name "with a geographic dimension”, erga omnes, ethnic affiliation, nationality, tophonymy, internal and external use of the name…the list just goes on and on. My favorite is the one that we, Macedonians can use our constitutional name only within the boundaries of our renamed Macedonia, outside we need to use our new renamed “erga omnes” name. So putting more and more irrational conditions on the table says only one thing – the Greece does not want this dispute to be resolved.

Which mediator in his right mind would allow the introduction of such rubbish during the process which is clearly meant to throw a wrench in the process? I don’t blame the Greeks because of their actions because I am sure they are justified by their own agenda but I question the right mind of the mediator and the UN who appointed him and is allowing for this to continue. This mockery of the process is tolerated and the UN keeps sponsoring this mockery of negotiations and the circus goes on and on while Greece has an all access pass to blackmail Macedonia from any logical development process. This looks more like hostage negotiations then a resolution of a bilateral dispute - all sponsored by the UN.

The Greeks know that their agenda cannot come true – they cannot wipe out the Macedonian people and any reference of us, Macedonians from history regardless of the number of books they forge. The IDENTICIDE (identity + suicide = identicide) can only be done by us - the Macedonians. The Greeks know it and they are making us put our own gun to our own heads and - pull the trigger. We, the Macedonians are being pushed to perform the IDENTICIDE. We need to pull the trigger. We can choose to do it – or chose NOT to. We have a choice.

The only acceptable resolution of the “name” issue for the Greeks is the IDENTICIDE of the Macedonians. In case this does not happen the Greeks have plan B - to keep us Macedonians in a BOX. Compartmentalizing the Macedonians from the rest of the world and wearing us out so we come to our senses and perform IDENTICIDE. Until we don’t we stay in the box. We have been there for 15 or more years. The only thing that keeps us in the BOX is ourselves by allowing this hostage negotiations process to continue.

So the continuous blackmail and stalling is just means to an end for the Greeks. Everything is supported of course by a process sponsored by the UN – which establishes an involuntary/voluntary accessory of the UN to this crime. This needs to be put to an END to this for both the UN and Macedonia’s sake.

The process which has been going on for over 15 years has proven to be only counterproductive and it serves only one purpose – a Greek cover to keep the development of Macedonia to a minimum in order to achieve Greeks national agenda. Brilliant yet criminal and criminals need to be taken to court. So we did and now there is a case in the “Hague”. I hope that the court has more respect for human rights and international laws and we can defend ourselves from the never-ending waves of attacks by the Greek government.

There is a condition imposed by Greece in the interim accord that we, the Republic of Macedonia cannot pursue this within other institution of international justice. Why? Because the only way they can keep us from resolving this is to keep the so called negotiations alive and use it as the gun to our heads – impeding Macedonia’s development.

Keeping Macedonia in a box is not as easy as it was in the early 90’s and mainly because the interest of the international investments have instigated processes which cannot be stopped just by plain spoiled brat politics. This issue has been so exposed and more and more people are getting familiar with it – and they have an objective opinion. I haven’t met anyone who has not laughed at the absurdity of the issue as well as the decade long impact that this absurd issue has had on 2mil people and the entire region.

The development process in Macedonia is continuing and I don’t think that the Greeks can slow it down any further. The entire region is planned to integrate in the next 5-7 years if not sooner and I think that the international community will run out of patience with the Greek spoiled brat politics. Everyone including the Macedonian government is growing up and all I can say is that change is coming. Soon, very soon.

God Bless Macedonia and God Bless all Macedonians. Report

[George S.]

Everyone knows Macedonian airspace is violated all the time the Greeks just laugh it off they don't respect us at all.

[Bij]

bill,

i think most of Greece's travel routes through to the EU go through Bulgaria now

[Bill77]

And now i read this,

"Macedonia remains in the name talks despite maksimalistichkite positions of Greece."

http://www.informator.ws/vesti-od-svetot.html

i give up

[Buktop]

The point of the Hague case is not to bind Greece to the outcome, but to strip Greece of any moral or political "high ground". If the Hague case comes back favorable to Macedonia we have 100% support from the IC to remove ourselves from the Interim Agreement and to resume use of the Constitutional name, we can call a vote in the UN to use our constitutional name and no one can stop us.

This case may start a landslide that Greece will be buried in, and it won't have support from the fat-cats in Europe this time around.

[Buktop]

And now i read this,

"Macedonia remains in the name talks despite maksimalistichkite positions of Greece."

http://www.informator.ws/vesti-od-svetot.html

i give up

Appearances can be deceiving...

[George S.]

regardless of What Macedonia is upto.Greece is not going to give up easily.The Hague court is a toothless tiger it can't make decisions binding.Greece knows that allready.If Macedonia wins they should use it to create un resolutions or something that would force Greece to back down.Also Macedonia should seek support from the 127 countries that recognize her to her advantage.

[Spartan]

Niether Greece or Macedonia will give up easily in my opinion. We will all be grandfathers before this issue is solved.

[Risto the Great]

Niether Greece or Macedonia will give up easily in my opinion. We will all be grandfathers before this issue is solved.

I am 100% positive Greece has the opinion that Macedonia will give up easier. And by Macedonia being involved in any negotiations whatsoever gives them this impression.

[Spartan]

This may very well be true Risto, but I still dont think Macedonia will 'give-up easily' as our friend GeorgeS stated. Negotiations or not, an issue like this has little hope of being solved through diplomatic methods.

[Risto the Great]

Negotiations or not, an issue like this has little hope of being solved through diplomatic methods.

Well it won't be war. So it can only be the sovereign rights of a nation that will inevitably be granted favour. Macedonia can walk away from all of this and still win. Now if Greece changes its name to Macedonia .... Macedonia can walk away from all of this and still win.

[Spartan]

I agree it wont be war, and if Macedonia can simply walk away and 'win', than I dont see why they havent yet. As I stated before, this thing will drag on for years(imo), we may not even be around to see it solved. As for greece changing it name, Im all for 'Morea' as I stated somewhere else