International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Prolet]

Risto, You also cant forget over 30 years of hard work and sacrifice that Todor Petrov has made especially during the SFRJ era. He was the only one who had the balls in the mid 80s to block our border with Greece and arrange major protests.

[Vangelovski]

Prolet, the fact that Petrov was a patriot in the past does not preclude him selling out in the future. I will always support his ideologically sound activities/views, but never the nonsense such as his recent admiration for the ICJ case.

[Risto the Great]

That depends if the ICJ step is not part of a larger process aimed at ridding us of the IA. If its not then I agree with you 100%

Surely going to court to force organisations to accept Macedonia's entry as FYROM is proof enough about Macedonia's intent. Why would Macedonia present a case to a court if it was merely being frivolous in its intent. Courts do not look kindly upon people who seek to play out a hidden agenda within the legal system.

It is beyond me how anything more sophisticated than the plaintiff's actual lawsuit is thought to exist by many Macedonians. Further, I wonder if anyone would be able to quantify the damages if Macedonia wins the case to be called "FYROM".

[Volk]

Again with the chess game. There is no ICJ "step" or any "larger process". Have you even bothered to read any of the ICJ proceedings? Probably not, you still haven't read the IA.

There may or may not be (by some of the government posturing, indications are that there is not) however only the inner government circle would know that...

[Vangelovski]

There may or may not be (by some of the government posturing, indications are that there is not) however only the inner government circle would know that...

Anyone with a basic understanding of Macedonian politics and a few years of experience under their belt can see it for what it plainly is. The "inner government circle" are a bunch of clowns who are now running a mental asylum.

[indigen]

Risto, You also cant forget over 30 years of hard work and sacrifice that Todor Petrov has made especially during the SFRJ era. He was the only one who had the balls in the mid 80s to block our border with Greece and arrange major protests.

Proleterche, you Gruevist running dog, STOP REPEATING THE SAME OLD WORN-OUT LIES about Petrov, or whoever, blockading the border "in the mid 80s"!!! It was a few symbolic blockades that occurred in May and June 1990 and that was the first time Petrov came to the fore politically!


Secondly, we have been through exactly this same point previously and I presented the evidence in a couple of places on the forum and following is one:

There are those that would have us believe that Tito gave us a Republic. That is the type of colonial mentality that makes us second class citizens and saps us of our confidence. Macedonians spilled blood to form the Republic and if it was not for Tito, Macedonia would not now be a hopelessly estranged nation. There are those that would have us direct our energies to secure human rights. At a time when we have an opportunity to seize national and political rights, the search for human rights is an implicit admission that we are not capable of self-determination. We must not ask for human rights, we must take political and national rights.

20 years later we are still looking for human rights. Arguably we are not capable of self-determination.

The HR Committees were spawned in 1984 (or thereabouts) and that is now closer to three decades with little visible results for the Macedonian cause. In fact one could say that the Macedonian Cause has slipped much, much further back, especially since 2001 and the implementation of the FA agenda.

Some related info follows below:

Macedonians gather in Canberra
(Canberra Times 17 June 1990)

[Photo]

A loud and passionate demonstration concluded after a scuffle with police when the crowd surged to the police cordon and tried to gain entry to the Greek Embassy. There were no arrests.


[2nd Photo]
The Macedonian and Australian flags intertwined during yesterday's demonstration outside the Greek Embassy.

Article

World-wide protest 'for freedom'

Without Macedonian history and culture “Greek Greece” had only mythology, one of the speakers at a demonstration outside the Greek Embassy in Yarralumba said yesterday.

Australian-Macedonians from NSW, Victoria and the ACT arrived at the embassy in bus loads to show their support and solidarity with Macedonians living in the territories now ruled by Greece, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia.

The 500 demonstrators were part of a world-wide protest supporting an indefinite blockade which was to be setup yesterday on the Yugoslav-Greek border.

Speakers said the blockade would continue until the Greek Government had formally recognised the human rights of Macedonians living in Greece.

They said there were many reasons why Australian-Macedonians supported the blockade. Macedonians in Greece could not speak or write in their own language, could not practice their own religion and were denied the rights of assembly and freedom of speech.

Yesterday, a list of demands were read outside the Greek Embassy. They included that all Macedonian prisoners of conscience be released immediately; that Macedonians in Greece be allowed to practice their religion and establish schools; that Macedonians be allowed to organise and have freedom of speech.

The demonstration got out of hand when a number of protesters tried to gain access to the embassy grounds. There wa a scuffle between police and demonstrators but no-one was hurt or arrested.

The president of the MAHRC of NSW, PT, said yesterday's strong show of support put increased pressure on the Greek Government to listen to Macedonian demands.

June1990_canberra_rally.jpg

Recommend reading the following article (image file) for further info of the protest/s held in Macedonia:


Breaking_down_borders_june_1990.jpg

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Za Potsetuvanje - Razno.

[Pelister]

Thats right. The judges are talking about FYROM's membership, not Macedonia's membership.

This is just another international institution, that does not recognise us, and perpetuates our status as a conquered people though the use of demeaning and highly insulting acronyms. I'm just amazed that a tiny number of lunatics in the diaspra continue to believe what is happening now is 'normal' and that this shameful name, FYROM is something they support.

[indigen]

Nothing to argue about there. The ICJ case is purely about honouring a treasonous agreement. An agreement which seeks to erase our identity.

The fact that only further legitimisation of the Interim Accord can be achieved through the ICJ process provides us with only two logical conclusions - that Gruevski is either stupid or a traitor.

I repost this CLASSIC summation by Vangelovski about Gruevski and ICJ case. But Tom, IMO, left out the following two other possibilities: a). Gruevski is both stupid and a traitor. b). Gruevski is very clever (devious) and a traitor!

On a further note, I was reading Kajgana forums on a similar topic discussion and was (very) pleasantly surprised to notice that "Bratot" has reviewed his position on the Accord and the ICJ case and is posting some very solid and articulate (in Macedonian) arguments against the ICJ case process! But of course there are a lot of deluded (or misguided) fools who find it hard to comprehend what he is saying, just like we find here on MTO.

[MacoLionHeartSun]

We have been recognized as Macedonia by 130 counties why are we attending these courts? The current leaders are incompetent and need a reality check, is there a party or leader in Macedonian who would insist we are NOT fyrom that was put on us…. We are Macedonia and only discuss issue relating to Macedonia not fryom.

[Risto the Great]

Fair point MLHS.
But there is no doubt the recognition from the 130 odd countries will change if Macedonia continues to play negotiation games.

[MacoLionHeartSun]

Fair point MLHS.
But there is no doubt the recognition from the 130 odd countries will change if Macedonia continues to play negotiation games.

RTG, Its fair to say we are our own worst enemy, Instead on working on our strengths, 130 countries support us as our constitutional name ROM Macedonia we continue to cave in to satisfy the minority…. why don’t we stick to the 80 / 20 rule?? STOP NEGOGITATING OUR IDENTIDY.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I have merged all recent threads relating to the ICJ.

[George S.]

THe macedonian govt seems to continue with it's negotiations on the name just so that they can enter nato & eu.It has been unheard of when a country has to compromise itself inorder to enter an organization.I thought self preservation of ones identity is the order of the day.

[Risto the Great]

I thought self preservation of ones identity is the order of the day.

Some would think that ... they don't end up leading the country unfortunately.

[The LION will ROAR]

Facing ICJ Defeat, Greece Looking to Quit Agreement

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17888/1/

Athens is considering the option to nullify the 1995 Interim Agreement with Macedonia after facing a legal defeat at the Hague, says yesterday's edition of Greek daily Kathimerini.


Stavros Ligeros, the author of the article claims if Greece had quit the Agreement earlier, Skopje wouldn't have had the opportunity to sue Athens. Now, says Ligeros, Greece is looking at an embarassing outcome, losing a legal challenge at the ICJ. Athens should have never allowed a political problem with Skopje to turn into a legal problem, says Ligeros.
Greek Media blames the former government led by Karamanlis, but also the current for not quitting the Agreement.


To make matters worse for the Greek side, its media mentions Evangelos Kofos and Christos Rozakis who in 1996 and 2001 said Greece had given up its right to blackmail/block Macedonia on its path to NATO and the EU. In a way, both Kofos and Rozakis had written Macedonia's lawsuit against Greece at the ICJ.

Macedonian analyst are not surprised by Greece's moves and consideration of abandoning the 1995 Interim Agreement. The fact that Athens is looking at quitting the interim agreement is a sign that official Athens if not confident then is certainly leaning towards losing the lawsuit at the ICJ.

Macedonian experts explain Greece's withdrawal from the agreement will mean more blockades for the country, however the blockades are in place for several years now, in other words nothing changes. Once the agreement is abandoned, Athens can no longer make requests on which symbols, flags, (Kutlesh) sun, or names Macedonia uses.