International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[makedonche]

Although some of the facts surrounding "Greece's" province have merit, we should not let that detract from this idiotic case that is being pursued at the ICJ, and that is asking an international court with no legitimate jurisdiction on matters of fundamental national sovereignty to enforce an Accord which stipulates we must use the name FYROM.

Vangelovski
You are right, and we should use any opportunity to expose the lies and deciet and tie those lies to this insane procedure so that they can all be exposed for the lies and deciet that is being promulgated - what better place to do it than at the ICJ so it can be recorded for all time!

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski
You are right, and we should use any opportunity to expose the lies and deciet and tie those lies to this insane procedure so that they can all be exposed for the lies and deciet that is being promulgated - what better place to do it than at the ICJ so it can be recorded for all time!

My point was that we should not even be at the ICJ

As for exposing Greece's fabrications, we don't need the ICJ to do that. It is already on the historical record. What we need to do is have it published much more widely so that it is more readily available.

[makedonche]

My point was that we should not even be at the ICJ

As for exposing Greece's fabrications, we don't need the ICJ to do that. It is already on the historical record. What we need to do is have it published much more widely so that it is more readily available.

Vangelovski
Agreed, we shouldn't even be there! Since the imbeciles have already taken us there, lets try and get/make something useful out of it!

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski
Agreed, we shouldn't even be there! Since the imbeciles have already taken us there, lets try and get/make something useful out of it!

Makedonche, I am not sure who 'we' are (Macedonians in general or the Macedonian Government), but there is nothing 'we' can get out of it. I'm not sure how 'we' could get anything useful out of it considering that the Gruevski Government is running Macedonia's case. They have always supported these notions of a 'common heritage' and no 'explicit rights to the name'. Don't forget which traitors we are talking about here and the reason they have undertaken the ICJ case in the first place.

[makedonche]

Vangelovski

Makedonche, I am not sure who 'we' are (Macedonians in general or the Macedonian Government),

Mate NO MACEDONIANS should be there at all! Given that the Government representatives are already there surely we can get something out of it or at least expose some untruths with carefully worded statements? (if the Govt reps. have the ability)

[Vangelovski]

Given that the Government representatives are already there surely we can get something out of it or at least expose some untruths with carefully worded statements? (if the Govt reps. have the ability)

Again, considering who those Government representatives are and the reasons they instigated these proceedings in the first place, I don't see why they would seek to 'rock the boat' with Greece. Their sole intention is to enforce the IA and get into NATO as FYROM.

Further, I would be wary of inadvertently legitimising the ICJ case with the idea that we can somehow 'prove' our cause or 'debunk' Greek fabrications. The ICJ is neither the appropriate place for that, nor is this case worthy of such a task.

[Risto the Great]

Again, considering who those Government representatives are and the reasons they instigated these proceedings in the first place, I don't see why they would seek to 'rock the boat' with Greece. Their sole intention is to enforce the IA and get into NATO as FYROM.

Further, I would be wary of inadvertently legitimising the ICJ case with the idea that we can somehow 'prove' our cause or 'debunk' Greek fabrications. The ICJ is neither the appropriate place for that, nor is this case worthy of such a task.

Nothing to argue about there. The ICJ case is purely about honouring a treasonous agreement. An agreement which seeks to erase our identity.

[fyrOM]

Will war begin if Macedonia, as a sovereign nation, insists on maintaining its identity and calling itself Macedonian? What will the worst consequences be if Macedonia says it wants to be called Macedonia from now on?

Is this a seriouse question RtG???? or have your kids got hold of your password?

Virtually guaranteed a war with the Albanians and western intervention to help the down-trodden democratic, western and EU orientated (read holding USA flags as in Kosovo) Moderate Muslims who only want to be free.

Why do you think the Albanians have been busily buying up (and intimidating ethic Macedonians to leave) and developing western Macedonia over the last 20 years if not for a split?

Macedonian saying:
Nadolu mnogu zdlaboko__going downwards is too deep
Nagore mnogu visoko____going upwards is too high
Naokulu mnogu siroko____going around is too wide
Kade?_________________where? ie where do we go?

That's why we need to get in the EU but in a smart way, to remain being called Macedonia, or the little bit of Macedonia we do have will be even smaller.

If you doubt there will be a war and one Macedonia will HAVE TO loose you are delusional. It is Impossible for Macedonia to tell the world to go away and expect everything to be business as usual tomorrow. We will be sitting here on the MTO debating whether or not the lives and territory needed to be lost - provided there is an MTO if everyone hasn't said you're all nuts and left.

Somehow, after all the loss, I don't think,"But at least we told the world we're Macedonia", will cut it!

[Risto the Great]

Virtually guaranteed a war with the Albanians and western intervention to help the down-trodden democratic, western and EU orientated (read holding USA flags as in Kosovo) Moderate Muslims who only want to be free.

fyrOM clearly states Macedonia is guaranteed a war with the ethnic Albanians if it calls itself Macedonia.

Any other takers on this question?

If Macedonia was changed into Illyria would Macedonians go to war with the ethnic Albanian minority?

[fyrOM]

If Macedonia was changed into Illyria would Macedonians go to war with the ethnic Albanian minority?

More fairy-land questions, or do you want to discuss things seriously? I would not expect such questions from someone your age.

[Risto the Great]

fyrOM, please remember your new login name. Let me know if it offends you, it will give me infinite joy.

What is the fairy-land question regarding Illyria?
Technically, the majority of ethnic Albanians are the only ones who can approve any changes within Macedonia (relating to Macedonia) nowadays as a result of the FA. This means that the ethnic Albanians technically have more say than the Macedonians. You do know this right???

People like you have already made your case very clear that FYROM is acceptable for entering into international organisations and that fear of war with the ethnic Albanian minority is your driving motivator. I can understand that kind of mentality coming from a tikva like yourself.

[fyrOM]

The crux of the problem is Not whether Macedonia is called Macedonia or not but the natural flow-on question of what happens to Aegean Macedonia if Macedonia is recognised as Macedonia?

For the Macedonians the name Macedonia is like the Bible story where two women are fighting over who is the real mother of the baby, and when Soloman decides to slice the child in two with his sward, one woman dives to cover the child with her own body while on the other-hand all the "historical ect." stuff is a "motivator" for the masses by the elite Greeks to keep pushing against Macedonia in a question for the land. If Macedonia was So dear to them they wouldn't have waited until 1988 to widely call the land Macedonia.

Even if the Greeks Don't like the Albanians the "my enemy's enemy is my friend - at least for the time-being." works. The Albanians are (one of) the internal pressure to go forward or blow up and the Greeks are the external pressure to stop with their vito. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, but for sliding out of this grip with the ICJ and the 'globe trotting' deals the President and Prime Minister have been doing - or did you think those countries announcing they recognise Macedonia happened by themselves (because they love Macedonia or something) just so you can cheer on the MTO while at the same time spit at the government?

PS...RtG...One definition of a patriot - call me names and I'll still do what needs to be done.
And you didn't even make some pancakes (pitulici/mekici).hahaha
I'm still OziMak, I'll just tolerate fyrOM until I'm vindicated.
I'm Not the Only Macedonian who knows how to put pride aside for the greater good.

[Vangelovski]

It seems fyrOM is happy with his new name. Why does that not surprise me.

[Risto the Great]

The crux of the problem is Not whether Macedonia is called Macedonia or not but the natural flow-on question of what happens to Aegean Macedonia if Macedonia is recognised as Macedonia

The crux is what happens to the Aegean Macedonians now.
3 posts ago it was the inevitable war with the ethnic Albanians.

I knew you would accept your new name without even a whimper.

[indigen]

Truthfully GS, I think your heart says no to FYROM but your brain accepts it.
I am not going to point the finger at you for this. You are like one million other Macedonians on the matter I suspect.

Vangelovski makes a point regarding NATO and the onus of justifying membership resting with pro FYROM membership Macedonians. EU membership is the same argument and I have spent some time de-constructing the merits of EU membership.

If you are going to play Greece in a game of devil's advocate, my question is as follows:

Will war begin if Macedonia, as a sovereign nation, insists on maintaining its identity and calling itself Macedonian? What will the worst consequences be if Macedonia says it wants to be called Macedonia from now on?

The following blog article by Sam Vaknin might be worth taking into account:

Greek-Macedonian Name Issue Myths Debunked
blog:10811:0::0

Posted Feb 19, 2011 by ■ Sam Vaknin in World

In the absence of the glare of the global media, its coverage and exposure, the fourth-rate diplomats that stand in for the International Community in Macedonia ineffectually cajole its government with thinly veiled threats, Cassandra-like apocalyptic scenarios, and verbal bribery. To achieve their aims, they propagate three myths (not to say deceptions):


Myth number 1: The conflict initiated by Greece is “normal” and not intractable

The truth is that the “Name Issue” cannot be resolved because the diametrically-opposing positions of the parties occupy the same semantic and geopolitical space. Both fear for their cohesion and identity should they compromise.

The Greek demand - that Macedonia and, consequently, the Macedonians change their collective (national) name - is unreasonable ab initio. Unreasonable demands cannot be rendered reasonable by being modified or amended. Greek “flexibility” and “reasonableness” are, therefore, smokescreens behind which lurk irrationality and extremism.
Sovereign polities should never succumb to blackmail and extortion: not because of ethical or moral considerations or matters of national pride, but because concessions only tend to enhance the insatiability of blackmailers and extortionists. Macedonia gave in to Greek blackmail once (with regards to its flag), yet this did not slake Greece’s thirst for more.

The name issue negotiations consume vast and scarce resources, especially in terms of human capital. Macedonia is a poor country and this Greek diversion is proving to be lethal as far as its economic development and geopolitical prospects go.

In truth, Macedonia is winning the diplomatic and public opinion battle the world over. More than 120 members of the United Nations recognize it by its constitutional name and not a week passes by without a commiserating op-ed in some prime medium in the West. Greece looks bad: an extortionate bully in the throes of economic mayhem and domestic terrorism. Faced with such an asymmetry in global sympathy, why should Macedonia be the one to throw in the towel?


Myth number 2: A lack of progress (read: Macedonian capitulation) on the name issue will foster inter-ethnic unrest and worse

Ardent, well-choreographed protestations aside, the Albanians in Macedonia ought to be delighted with the lack of progress on both NATO and EU accession. The overwhelming majority of Albanians in Western Macedonia are enmeshed in activities which can only be charitably described as “informal”. The Albanians are the engine that runs the grey and black and criminal economies in Macedonia. EU accession will put an abrupt stop to all these lucrative endeavours and unravel networks that took decades to build and maintain.

Furthermore, the Albanian insurgency in 2001 was the outcome of copious nods and winks (and dollops of materiel) on the part of the United States and, to a lesser extent, the EU. No such support, implicit or explicit, is to be found today: the International Community is firmly and irrevocably committed to the Ohrid Framework Agreement and will not allow the Albanians to use weapons to try to alter its generous terms.

Albanian posturing concerning the Macedonian procrastination with regards to the Name Issue has to do with internecine strife between the two big Albanian parties: DUI and DPA. They both leverage the name issue and threaten civil war in order to re-divide the spoils of government on all levels.


Myth number 3: EU Accession is Macedonia’s ticket to instant and sustained prosperity

The EU is in the throes of a life-threatening crisis and the entire enlargement project is in ever-growing doubt. Even if the EU were to emerge unscathed from this predicament, its harried officials still regard the Western Balkans as a cesspit, an Ottoman-Byzantine-Oriental Muslim-infested relic in the heart of an otherwise civilized, genteel, and Christian Europe (read: West). The more bigoted of the EU members are going to drag the negotiations with the likes of Macedonia as they have been doing with Turkey for decades now.

Macedonia currently enjoys all the benefits of EU membership without incurring any of its costs: it has free trade, visa-free travel, and access to regional development funds and EU tenders. The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.

[....]

http://www.digitaljournal.com/blog/10811#ixzz1FWPgi8Gp

For fair use only.

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RTG, I think you should look into changing the topic title to something more a appropriate, e.g. "How Macedonian shoots itself in the foot/head by going to the ICJ"!