International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Pelister]

What evidence exists to support your dream assertion above?

I don't know why your wasting time with this guy, RTG. We have heard this 'fly on the wall' and 'inside scoup' coming from OziMak and other Metovisti for some time now. His intention is to deceive Macedonians that there is 'a plan'. This is how in the past UMD have been able to rope in young, impressionable Macedonians. They don't see the danger and they certainly don't understand what is happening right now. It is only explained to them that we are 'weak' and it is 'necessary' and they believe it. These parasites have a clever way of spreading misinformation about the reality of what is going on right now. Here we have the perfect example of one of them. You could call it a 'blind faith' in our destruction.

[fyrOM]

In 1994 and E.C meeting passed a resolution stating that Macedonia must change its name.

Thats the position of the E.C and the demand they make, and that has not changed.

From an E.U point of view, this position is non-negotiable. We must change our name to enter. Anyone trying to make a case that membership is vital to our interests (when in fact it isn't), is in fact advocating we change our name.

Are laws/rules never changeable?
Say Macedonia enters the EU as FYROM and then pursues recognition of the name, (only) Macedonia, in the UN. Lets further say this is achieved and everyone at the UN now recognises the name Macedonia for all uses. Do you think the EU can then say they insist Macedonia change her name because of some earlier rule?

I think the 'but-for' rule will prevail - ie you had to change your name 'but for' now everyone calls you Macedonia and the EU's position becomes non-workable and must change. Given the right circumstances 'everything' is negotiable, even the EU's non-negotiables.

"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse." 'Don Vito', "The Godfather".

[fyrOM]

What evidence exists to support your dream assertion above?

I'm Not in the inner-circle of the government so I can't photocopy documents for you.

A basic rule of thumb is, "Do deeds match words?" - listen to what the government is saying and watch to see if the actions they are taking fit in. Ofcourse they are Not going to publicise their every move - no country does - but see if you can spot where x action fits into the plan, if at all.

But remember, above all No government can change the name WITHOUT a referendum so the government cannot do a sneaky without all the people knowing about it AND AGREEING to it.

I have outlined my reasoning in past threads. I don't see the need to repeat everything now again.

[Risto the Great]

But remember, above all No government can change the name WITHOUT a referendum so the government cannot do a sneaky without all the people knowing about it AND AGREEING to it.

So what we have is proof that you simply do not understand what is going on AND a strong desire to make your case about things you do not understand.

I used to have similar arguments with my children when they were toddlers.

[fyrOM]

I was going to refrain from posting because without 'concrete' evidence ie documents or something, you (collective) refuse to believe points made regardless if they appear logical or not and only at such time that there is something more concrete will you change your mind. In such circumstances it becomes pointless to continue until it can be demonstrated to you further than what it has been done so thus far. I just couldn't help myself watching people missing how simple it really is and got tempted to make that post (ie Post028). I'll have to resist temptation harder in the future.

I used to have similar arguments with my children when they were toddlers.

Keep arguing with them, you might learn something. You don't have to wait until everything is 'concrete' (ie eg in black an white) before you can understand and work on something.

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia replies to Greek counter-arguments at second round of ICJ hearing

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/151121.html

Second round of the public hearing over Macedonia's suit against Greece before the Hague-based International Court of Justice (ICJ) for violating the 1995 bilateral document by objecting to Macedonia's application to join NATO began on Monday, MIA reports from the Hague.

The legal issue before you is maybe discrete, but the stake for my country is very high. This case is not a theoretical one. It currently has an effect on our relations with NATO, as well as the pending EU integration. The Court's decision will have significant consequences on the stability and economic prosperity of my country, said Ambassador to the Netherlands, Nikola Dimitrov, who is Macedonia's co-agent in the ICJ suit.

"We ask for a clear judgment that would restore legal stability and confirm that what was once agreed cannot be used for gaining advantage in the name issue. If the Court decides in our favor, both parties will have the same burden and incentive to resume with the negotiations in order to overcome differences regarding my country's name. The effect of your judgment will be to reestablish the regime achieved through the 1995 accord and observed over the following 13 years", said Dimitrov.

He stressed the importance of the Court's judgment for Macedonia.

"Macedonia's path is one of a small country in the heart of the Balkans, which is trying to do the right things in a difficult surrounding, in order to find its place in the community of nations. The name issue is one of the main challenges on this road. Our name is a result of a long historic process, whereas being born as Macedonians and speaking the Macedonian language, we do not have an alternative in choosing another identity. We have never tried to monopolize the name, we are aware that it can have different meanings to different peoples, nor we oppose the use of this term by the respondent in naming its province", added ambassador Dimitrov.

According to him, the UN Security Council had said the Interim Accord would promote the enhancement of regional stability.

"The council was right. We hope it will continue to do this with the Court's assistance", underlined Dimitrov.

University College London professor Philippe Sands, who started the elaboration of Macedonia's reply to Greece counter-arguments, stressed it was obvious after the first round of the hearing this was a simple process, meaning that the respondent opposed to Macedonia's NATO membership in circumstances when the country would be referred under the interim reference, the consequence being violation of Article 11 from the Interim Accord.

"It is obvious that the case is not easy for the respondent. What we heard is a fairytale based on what happened in 1993, 1995, 2007 and 2008. In order to give color to this fairytale, the respondent ignores the facts, creates false images, misrepresenting third parties and referring to historical facts dating back to the 4th century B.C. that have no relevance in the case", said Sands.

According to him, by raising a spectre of issues for involvement of the ICJ in politics, the Greek side aimed to convince the Court in the newspaper headlines that Greece did not object to Macedonia's NATO accession.

"It is obvious that such headline would be silly", added Sands.

He also challenged the alleged evidence of irredentism, along with the claim that the applicant represented a threat for territorial pretensions towards the respondent.

Professor Sean Murphy from the George Washington University referred to Greece's arguments from the first round of the public hearing, saying they were empty, inconsistent, not credible and misrepresenting, which cannot seriously oppose arguments proving the unyielding position over Macedonia's NATO accession.

"Regardless of the veto characterization, the prevention is possible by one Alliance member. The idea is that NATO does not know the veto to which the respondent insisted last week", stressed Murphy.

He also said Greece systematically campaigned in 2007 and 2008 against Macedonia's NATO accession.

"We ask the Court not to forget these facts, which clearly demonstrate violation of the Interim Accord", added professor Murphy.

Professor Pierre Klein from the Brussels-based Libre University also refuted claims that the Hague suit is related to the name issue and that the Court is not competent to decide on Macedonia's application.

"The Greek representatives have not shown any evidence and arguments in supporting this", said Klein.

He claimed that Greece's defense that it only joined the NATO consensus over Macedonia's invitation was ungrounded, saying Athens prevented this through its highest officials.

"Macedonia considers this case as separate from the name process, which is ignored by the Greek side. The name row was there before this suit and will continue after it. The Court's decision will not have any influence on it and will not mean political interference. Therefore, the Court should declare itself competent and accept Macedonia's claims contained in the application", underlined professor Klein.

The public hearing will be completed with the concluding remarks from Greece on March 30.

The ICJ verdict, which is final and binding for UN member-states and parties in the dispute, is expected within six months or by the year-end.

The dumb Fyromian lied in court. Greece does not have a province called Macedonia.

[Risto the Great]

Are you a little bit aware that every country in the EU has its OWN tax structure and budgets - they are Not one rule for everyone?

Are you aware who sets the budgets for the EU countries?
Obviously not fyrOM.
Go speak to the French and the Germans about it fyrOM.

[julie]

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/151121.html


The dumb Fyromian lied in court. Greece does not have a province called Macedonia.

Self proclaimed Fyromians are very stupid backward people.
How offensive to the Macedonians everywhere

[makedonche]

RTG
Absolutely f@#$% astounding! Now we are declaring it isn't ours anyway and they are free to use it WTF?

[julie]

Unfortunately Makedonche, its a kick in the guts for all of us from Egejska Makedonia.
Sometimes I wonder why I even care anymore
Then I think I cant let down the 10% of Macedonians in the Republic that might give a shit

[George S.]

Ozimak the govt has allready capitulated on the name & doesn't need any referndum.The decision has been made.

[George S.]

I'ts a slap in the face for all who gave their lives for macedonia to be called fyrom.
it has been said that we are our own worst enemies.Greece does not have a province it is lies & an artificial thing.The part that is held is an illegal holding taken from the macedonian people & lying that it was liberating it.If macedonians don't watch what they are saying they may as well lose the icj case.I thought the professors were smart people that were on the case how wrong have i been.They are slowly capitulating to the enemy by giving credence.Where'as real evidence will show the contrary.

[Risto the Great]

RTG
Absolutely f@#$% astounding! Now we are declaring it isn't ours anyway and they are free to use it WTF?

I don't think that is what he was saying. He was saying what Gruevski says about Macedonia meaning different things to different people and that the Macedonians do not want to monopolise the name.

I would like to see Turks calling themselves Greeks and using a similar arguments about definitions of "Greeks".

It is a dead end street and of no use to Macedonians.

But it is astounding that the myth of Greece having a province called Macedonia is not challenged. We see it every day in news reports yet know it is factually incorrect. Yet "Macedonia's finest" goes into court and lies. Perhaps if they did some more research they might even have a reason to fight for our identity instead of against it.

[Risto the Great]

GStojanov,
I certainly do not want to put words in your mouth.
Do you disagree with Macedonia entering into NATO/EU/UN as FYROM?

GStojanov, are you going to avoid answering the question?

[Phoenix]

The referendum idea is a gutless diversion from the normal responsibilities that go with protecting national interests...i'm not surprised Toby fyrOM is a strong supporter of this pathetic example of gross national negligence.