International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Volk]

Volk, can you suggest a plan of action?

the only plan of action I can call for is Macedonia to be prepared to spill blood to defend itself and not pray to the higher 'gods' (EU & NATO) for its salvation.

[Volk]

Volk
Mate if you agree, then it sort of ads wieight to Vangelovski's argument, there may well be consequences of scrapping the IA & FA, but balanced against loss of sovreignity with the real potential to never get it back because it was surrendered voluntarily! Your thoughts?

Makedonche, perhaps you should rely on my post and not Angelovski's to understand my opinion. I was never for the FA or IA.

They both work agaisnt the Macedonian nation and state. What I have said all along is saying they should be abolished is one thing, but adressing the fallout is another. This is what needs to be done because Macedonia has been walking a very tight rope for a long time and its only getting tighter due to our inability to defend our nation idiologically.

The political elites in Macedonia do not have the nations interest at heart and they must be replaced for real progress.

[makalek]

The arguments by Greece are just weak. It's just blah, blah, blah. I'm falling asleep how boring their arguments are. They are just trying to make this a complex issue because they have no arguments. They keep on mentioning good neighborly relations and even admitted that the name issue is the only thing that's keeping us from NATO membership. They tried to spin it that NATO made that collective decision and not just them but it's a blatant lie. We even have more troops in Afghanistan even though their army is much bigger than ours. They even used quotes from the traitor Ljupco Georgievski from back in 1999. One of their presenters couldn't even say Macedonia and said the Former Yugoslav Republic of Yugoslavia. The judges must be saying finish already because of their boring and weak arguments.

[Vangelovski]

the only plan of action I can call for is Macedonia to be prepared to spill blood to defend itself and not pray to the higher 'gods' (EU & NATO) for its salvation.

Volk, weren't you claiming apocalyptic-style scenarios that we need to "prepare" for? What happened to your fantasy about a "self-sufficient" military industry and energy sector? What about the "embargo"? What about your fear of "isolation"? What happened to all those concerns? Or did you finally realise they were all BS? Or are you just temporarily retreating from your scaremongering BS until you feel people have forgotten about it and then you'll bring it up again (as usual)?

[George S.]

Volk are you really advocating war for the sake of it.We can try other means & measures.

[Risto the Great]

Or are you just temporarily retreating from your scaremongering BS until you feel people have forgotten about it and then you'll bring it up again (as usual)?

This seems to be a common approach by a few people.

[Risto the Great]

If there were more Macedonian people who asserted their rights and valued Macedonia's sovereignty, would Macedonia be better off right now?

fyrOM, I am pretty sure you never answered this.

[GStojanov]

How and why Greece will be defeated at the ICJ

Here is the text of the Interim Accord:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interim_Accord_Between_the_Hellenic_Republic_and_the_former_Yugoslav_Republic_of_Macedonia

Now Greece in its defence forwarded two arguments:

1. The ICJ cannot make a practical judgement, since NATO is not under its jurisdiction.

2. Greece may have broken the Agreement, but Macedonia broke it first.

Both arguments are meritless:

1. Macedonia does not sue Greece in attempt to become a member or NATO. The ICJ trully cannot order NATO to admit Macedonia. Macedonia rather sues Greece for breaking the Agreement, more specifically the Article 11:

Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

In plain words: Greece agreed not to object if Macedonia applies in any international organization, as long as in this organization, Macedonia is to be refered using the provisional reference.

But Greece did object it in 2007 and 2008. It objected it in writing. The Macedonian side submitted a letter that Greece sent to all NATO states where Greece STRONGLY OBJECTS Macedonia application unless the name issue is resolved.

So what Macedonia expects from the court is

1. To determine that Greece broke the agreement,
2. To order Greece to cease with such activities (for example to stop blocking Macedonian application to EU, which is far more important than NATO)
3. To correct its breach, namely to write to all NATO members that it does not any longer object Macedonian membershipt to NATO.

The second Greek argument is meritless also. Lets suppose that Macedonia did broke the Agreement. That does not give Greece any right to break it also. Revenge is not a judicialy acceptable response.

If Macedonia broke the Agreement, Greece was supposed to do what Macedonia did: seek justice from ICJ. Greece did not do that, so there is no breach on the Macedonian side.

[Risto the Great]

The agreement is about Macedonia accepting its name of FYROM.
Macedonia indeed sues Greece so that it can be called FYROM.
The ICJ case is definitely not about resolving the name issue and this was confirmed by Miloshoski in his opening statement in the court case.

The case is meritless.

[indigen]

Here is the text of the Interim Accord:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interim_Accord_Between_the_Hellenic_Republic_and_the_former_Yugoslav_Republic_of_Macedonia

Now Greece in its defence forwarded two arguments:

1. The ICJ cannot make a practical judgement, since NATO is not under its jurisdiction.

2. Greece may have broken the Agreement, but Macedonia broke it first.

Both arguments are meritless:

1. Macedonia does not sue Greece in attempt to become a member or NATO. The ICJ trully cannot order NATO to admit Macedonia. Macedonia rather sues Greece for breaking the Agreement, more specifically the Article 11:

Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

In plain words: Greece agreed not to object if Macedonia applies in any international organization, as long as in this organization, Macedonia is to be refered using the provisional reference.

But Greece did object it in 2007 and 2008. It objected it in writing. The Macedonian side submitted a letter that Greece sent to all NATO states where Greece STRONGLY OBJECTS Macedonia application unless the name issue is resolved.

So what Macedonia expects from the court is

1. To determine that Greece broke the agreement,
2. To order Greece to cease with such activities (for example to stop blocking Macedonian application to EU, which is far more important than NATO)
3. To correct its breach, namely to write to all NATO members that it does not any longer object Macedonian membershipt to NATO.

The second Greek argument is meritless also. Lets suppose that Macedonia did broke the Agreement. That does not give Greece any right to break it also. Revenge is not a judicialy acceptable response.

If Macedonia broke the Agreement, Greece was supposed to do what Macedonia did: seek justice from ICJ. Greece did not do that, so there is no breach on the Macedonian side.

Seeing as the letter of our amatuer Foreign Minister Milososki has recently come to light, it is perhaps timely to have a refresh on the Interim Accord for all the goldfish out there.

The full text of the Interim Accord (from the UN database) can be found here:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_1...3/00004456.pdf

Key Articles in the Interim Accord which Undermine Macedonian Sovereignty

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7); and

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11).

In addition, another article of interest is the following (I would not necessarily argue that this undermines Macedonian national sovereignty for the simple fact that the ICJ is a limitation on national sovereignty, it is nonetheless rather stupid):

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

I recommenced to all those that see the current ICJ case as some sort of "positive" contest between Macedonia and Greece to read and COMPREHEND what the "Interim Accord" entails and what are the CONS from Macedonia going to the ICJ to ENFORCE such an ANTI-MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION "AGREEMENT"!

Secondly, I can not for the life of me see how such mindlessly ignorant topic titles can be REPEATEDLY posted by sane Macedonians!

[Volk]

Volk, weren't you claiming apocalyptic-style scenarios that we need to "prepare" for? What happened to your fantasy about a "self-sufficient" military industry and energy sector? What about the "embargo"? What about your fear of "isolation"? What happened to all those concerns? Or did you finally realise they were all BS? Or are you just temporarily retreating from your scaremongering BS until you feel people have forgotten about it and then you'll bring it up again (as usual)?

Retreating from what? Pointing out that Macedonian need to defend their country is a retreat?

Without the preparedness of Macedonians to actually pick up a weapon and to defend the existence of their country, everything else it pointless.

Dont you think we should be ready for the war that you now admit is inevitable? Does this not include mechanisms to counter an military embargo which was also imposed in 2001? Is that really fantasy? Is it fantasy to have enough oil to drive tanks, APCs and other military hardware??

Your on the verge of irrational.

[indigen]

Indigen,

I'm not too fond of Janev's approach. Although it may provide us with the desired 'end', it does so in a manner that contradicts our national sovereignty.

I too prefer "your solution", which has always been my preference and long before I knew you existed. It simply makes LOGICAL SENSE and FEELS like a natural law of JUSTICE to me!

Like all other countries that have changed their names at the UN and other international organisations, I think a simple diplomatic note should suffice.

I AGREE!

Anything beyond Macedonia informing them of our state name 'Macedonia', as opposed to 'FYROM', through a diplomatic note would be tantamount to asking for permission to use our state name.

Agreed! But still, Igor Janev, though I object to his use of offensive terminology such as "Constitutional Name", has been given a lot of time and promotion by a lot of patriots, e.g. Slavko Mangovski (via Makedonsko Sonce and other media outlets), and his proposed solution is seen as good alternative to the current capitulations and deconstruction agendas that are in play.

The following Google Search Terms will deliver some relevant info: марјан попески macedoniantruth.org

Have a look at what Popeski is saying, i.e. his rationale (which I, in my limited capacity to understand such legal solutions, think has good merit on certain points) for his proposed solution or resolution to the "name issue", and see what you think of it.

Грчка лажга

Козите во градината Македонија се оние од „Генекс“. Во левицата, сите се такви. Но видете колку ги има во десницата. Тие се оние што се обидуваат да и се додворат на Европа, сметајќи дека е неморална како нив, и прво со Привремената согласност 1995 година, а сега со тужбата, ја нудат Македонија како курбан за нивните филистерски потреби и навики

[…..]

Едо Равникар („УДБОМАФИЈА“, Љубљана, 1994), вели дека откако напишал за „Генекс“ во контекст на УДБОМАФИЈАТА, застанал и чекал да почнат да пливаат лешеви. Но дури после му станало јасно дека народот не знае што е „Генекс“ (удбашка фирма). Така и мене ми стана јасно дека народот не знае што е иус цогенс. Аристотел вели дека човекот размислува во слики („Спис за душата“). Па еве една слика за иус цогенс. Грк и Македонец се договараат, Гркот да му даде милион долари на Македонецот. Овој има 15 години да ужива во трошењето и потоа треба да се обеси. Македонецот се изнауживал 15 години, ги потрошил сите пари, дури направил и солидна мала фирма што му носела пристојни приходи. Бидејќи не се обесил, Гркот го потсетил на договорената обврска. Овој не сакал да се обеси. Гркот не може да го тужи и да бара судот да му наложи да се обеси. Доколку ја направи таа глупост, тој ќе биде обвинет за кривично дело поттикнување самоубиство и ќе заврши во затвор.

Така и Македонија: иако со Привремената согласност е договорено да се обеси (компромис), правото на самоопределување е иус цогенс и има дејство ерга омнес (спрема сите), па како што судот ќе ја одбие тужбата на Гркот што дал милион долари за самоубиство и ќе биде ставен во затвор, така и Грција, доколку ја тужи Македонија за да си го смени името, ќе биде одбиена.

[…..]

Значи козите во градината Македонија се оние од „Генекс“. Во левицата, сите се такви. Но видете колку ги има во десницата. Тие се оние што се обидуваат да и се додворат на Европа, сметајќи дека е неморална како нив, и прво со Привремената согласност 1995 година, а сега со тужбата, ја нудат Македонија како курбан за нивните филистерски потреби и навики. Во оваа нехигиенска постапка, оние од „Генекс“ внесоа млади луѓе, чија македонска волја не е оштетена, но се ставени во заблуда со лажгата.
И за крај: најкратко логички да го докажам овој текст.

Тужбата на Владата ја крши логичната доследност во форма на игноратио еленцхи (непознавање на спорната точка). Оваа грешка ја прават оние што немаат чувство за тоа што е најважно. Владата смета дека најважно е Грција да не ја попречува Македонија во зачленувањето. Јас сметам дека најважно е иус цогенс. Доколку сум во право дека правото на самоопределување важи ерга омнес, тоа значи по пресудата на Меѓународниот суд на правдата ќе мора и членките на ЕУ да нé признат како и оние 129 држави.

Авторот е адвокат и судски преведувач

Автор: Марјан Попески

http://novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=1241191437&id=13&prilog=0&setIzdanie=22188

For fair use only.


NB: ius cogens (Google search result)
http://www.macrofox.com/eng/d/ius-cogens/ius-cogens.htm

Заблуди во спорот со Грција

Текстов го објавил Марјан Попески на 11 Фебруари, 2011 во Логика, Меѓународно право, Мисла, Човекови права | 16 коментари
http://marjan.mk/2011/zabludi-vo-sporot-so-grcija/

Some extra info from Marjan Popeski that should also be read and taken into consideration when looking at the ICJ case.

[Prolet]

Nobody knows the answer to that question, all we know is that Macedonia took Greece to ICJ for breaking the interim accord thats it.

My point was that everybody in our diaspora made a unanimous decision that we should break away from these negotiations, thats what i want to see as soon as possible.

[Vangelovski]

Retreating from what? Pointing out that Macedonian need to defend their country is a retreat?

Without the preparedness of Macedonians to actually pick up a weapon and to defend the existence of their country, everything else it pointless.

Dont you think we should be ready for the war that you now admit is inevitable? Does this not include mechanisms to counter an military embargo which was also imposed in 2001? Is that really fantasy? Is it fantasy to have enough oil to drive tanks, APCs and other military hardware??

Your on the verge of irrational.

Retreating from your apocalyptic scenario's.

I see you're still confused about the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord - they are two separate documents covering two very different issues. Perhaps you should try reading them one day. You should also try and distinguish who said what about which document and the different parties with which they were agreed to.

[makedonche]

Makedonche, perhaps you should rely on my post and not Angelovski's to understand my opinion. I was never for the FA or IA.

They both work agaisnt the Macedonian nation and state. What I have said all along is saying they should be abolished is one thing, but adressing the fallout is another. This is what needs to be done because Macedonia has been walking a very tight rope for a long time and its only getting tighter due to our inability to defend our nation idiologically.

The political elites in Macedonia do not have the nations interest at heart and they must be replaced for real progress.

Volk
I understand your opinion and confirmed that previously, my reference to Vangelovski was merely pointing out that he makes a strong argument that we are all not too far from agreeing with. My view is that if we look at things sequentially in both occurance and in terms of planning then we are closer to agreement between us, by virtue of getting rid of the FA & IA as priorities, before these agreements erode what's left of our sovreignity. Yes?