International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

Closet Macedonians. They wave the true flag in personal instances, but are scared to ask for their respect on an official level. Pathetic. Has Miloshoski ever renounced his past bugaroman tendencies?

[makedonche]

Makedonche, the whole argument is not that Macedonia should not withdraw from the IA & FA agreement but it should do so in a way which does not jeopardize the integrity of the state. There are many factors which can contribute to this which have been covered on many occasions including in this thread.

Perhaps Vangelovski can enlighten everyone about the admitted difficulties we face from such moves and solutions to overcome them.

Volk
Wouldn't we be better off approaching it from a positive forward planing method rather than reactive negative planning?
Doesn't it also show that the fact we have to plan for this at all is typical of the lack of previous planning/foresight/alternate political agendas? This already leaves us behind the eightball and the quickest way forward is to get on a level playing field by informing the UN of our name (which is not negotiable) cease the name negotiations, declare the IA and FA as invalid and start moving forward instead of being stuck in limbo, and not having to waste time and resources on matters negating our rights.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The longer we wait, the more difficult it will be, that is just an obvious fact.

[Prolet]

They say dont mix politics with sport but it seems sport has everything to do with politics. This is why we have to invest alot in sports because there is no better promotion of our country. If this is all the Greeks can come up with, then we are really dealing with psychopaths here.

I really want us to break away from these negotiations, however at the very least we should use this verdict to pull away and make this disgraceful Interim Accord Null and Void since it was never ratified in the Greek Parliament, it was always a temporary solution that was suppose to last for 2 months and here we are 17 years later still talking about it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I really want us to break away from these negotiations, however at the very least we should use this verdict to pull away and make this disgraceful Interim Accord Null and Void since it was never ratified in the Greek Parliament

And if it was ratified and Greece accepted us as 'fyrom' or 'RoM - Skopje', that makes it less disgraceful? Teshko tebe za pamet. Stop apologising for these weaklings in our government and understand once and for all that they are taking Greece to court for not calling us 'fyrom' in international organisations. It's like you taking me to court for not calling you a moron. Are you able to grasp this fact, or not?

They say dont mix politics with sport but it seems sport has everything to do with politics. This is why we have to invest alot in sports because there is no better promotion of our country.

The best promotion for our country is for our 'leaders' to declare their integrity on an official level, and not pander to foreign interests officially while feigning 'patriotism' in their private time. It is a pathetic token gesture, and nothing more. When will people like yourself stop making excuses for Gruevski and co. and start criticising their submissive and treacherous policies?

[Prolet]

SOM, I want us to pull out of these negotiations as soon as possible, i sure as hell wont get my kicks out of a possible court win in the ICJ. I would be happier if we use the ruling as an political excuse to break away from these negotiations nothing more. If they want a reason to pull out then here it is, i would be happier if they pull out as soon as possible.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You need to have the ICJ give you a reason for pulling out? Integrity and self-respect - how about those for reasons? Stop making excuses for the current government (excuses that even they don't make) and accept reality, they have had plenty of time to pull out and plenty of reasons to do it thus far. Gruevski has no intention of pulling out of these negotiations, if he did, he would have done it 3 years ago when he made a promise to the Macedonian people at Bucharest (after he almost sold us out with his '-Skopje' suggestion which was rejected by the Greeks).

Answer this, Prolet, do you think it is a 'good idea' for Gruevski and co. to be taking Greece to the ICJ for not calling us 'fyrom' in international organisations?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

If you consult, conspire (France and Germany) or in anyway display "intent" with "threats" then you're an accessory and guilty.

Wikileaks 2012

[Phoenix]

I think the ICJ ruling will be interesting for one reason and that's to see how the Gruevski cheerleaders, back slappers and various apologists go trying to wriggle their way out of the corner that they've crawled into.

Where to for the prolets, the ozimaks and all the other 'grand-plan' proponents, I wonder what straws will be left for them to clutch onto...

[indigen]

The only one that has been "pissing" their way around here is you, trying to tell us stories about total destruction and famine, energy and self-sufficient military/industrial complexes, great games and chess matches and similar nonsense that you probably took out of a Tom Clancy novel.

We have in fact gone over this very topic time and again, largely on Maknews when you were playing back-up vocals for Buktop. Maybe you should do a search here on the MTO and see if you can find anything, otherwise wait for a more detailed thread that I am working on, which hopefully will become a sticky and you will not be able to pretend it does not exist by waiting for it to get buried after a few months.

In the meantime, you should familiarise yourself (though I doubt you will) with the Framework Agreement (and related legislation and constitutional amendments) and Interim Accord. You should also do some basic research on what other countries have in place (in relation to the FA) and relevant international law and practice (and whether it holds any legitimacy) in relation to the IA. The difficulty for you will be the fact that all of this will require critical thinking in order to determine how it affects Macedonia and whether it is based on natural law. I am not sure that you will overcome this challenge, but that should not discourage you from tyring.

Your uninformed and baseless scaremongering is pathetic and demonstrates an obvious fondness for the Ramkovist vassal state that your ideological mentors have created.

I know that we have clearly gone over this topic many a time and these following links (from a Google search) to other MTO threads will show that is the case, provided one bothers to click on them and read through the old posts:


The Macedonian Flag

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4788&page=17

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4788&page=18

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4788&page=19

ventilator

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3315&page=29

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3315&page=30

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3315&page=31

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3315&page=32

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3315&page=33

UMD Policy on the Ohrid Framework Agreement

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2617&page=11

****Zoran Vraniskovski proposes ...[...]... Macedonia

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3189&page=11

04-08-2010
Vangelovski


Default
Quote:
< Originally Posted by indigen View Post
I think the current "RAMKOVNA MAKEDONIJA" is in many respects LESS than what we
had in SFRJ. For one, it is no longer a nation state of the Macedonian people
and the title deeds are shared with the Ghegs. Only a VICTORIOUSLY waged WAR can
alter that fact and provided the "IC", who are party to the "FA", stay out of
the fray and don't come in to play judge and jury and decide our fate.>


T.V.:"..Additionally, the current "Ramkovna" Macedonia is a multi-national state
with (theoretically) up to 5 constituent nations. If we were to fall below the
20 per cent mark, we would effectively cease to be a constituent nation, all
thanks to the Framework Agreement and our morally/intellectually corrupt
"leaders"..."


Old 04-08-2010
indigen

Quote:
<Originally Posted by osiris View Post
do you really think so indigen do you believe our government is that compromised
and ineffectual.>

Indigen: "...Have a PROPER read of the Ramkoven Dogovor, it is available in English on MTO,
and the 1991 Constitution and see what it implies.

I strongly view RAMKOVNA MAKEDONIIJA as the road to hell for
Macedonians and the Macedonian nation/identity. It is a DECONSTRUCTION CAMP for
deconstructing the Macedonian identity, the name of the state is only one of the
few vestiges left to remind us that we were once a distinct nation with their
own state...."

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...t=3189&page=11

The Ohrid Framework Agreement

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4884

[Volk]

The only one that has been "pissing" their way around here is you, trying to tell us stories about total destruction and famine, energy and self-sufficient military/industrial complexes, great games and chess matches and similar nonsense that you probably took out of a Tom Clancy novel.

We have in fact gone over this very topic time and again, largely on Maknews when you were playing back-up vocals for Buktop. Maybe you should do a search here on the MTO and see if you can find anything, otherwise wait for a more detailed thread that I am working on, which hopefully will become a sticky and you will not be able to pretend it does not exist by waiting for it to get buried after a few months.

In the meantime, you should familiarise yourself (though I doubt you will) with the Framework Agreement (and related legislation and constitutional amendments) and Interim Accord. You should also do some basic research on what other countries have in place (in relation to the FA) and relevant international law and practice (and whether it holds any legitimacy) in relation to the IA. The difficulty for you will be the fact that all of this will require critical thinking in order to determine how it affects Macedonia and whether it is based on natural law. I am not sure that you will overcome this challenge, but that should not discourage you from tyring.

Your uninformed and baseless scaremongering is pathetic and demonstrates an obvious fondness for the Ramkovist vassal state that your ideological mentors have created.

Yes I remember the 20 pages worth of pissing you did on the Maknews topic. You where doing so well there you needed to create a fake account to back yourself. To me that speaks volume about character.

You should work on answering the questions which are confirmed by your admittance "its going to be difficult" - "What is and why"?

You have dodged and cowardly avoided questions on how to deal with with the difficulties, which you now ADMIT

So head down and do your homework before instructing anyone, particularly me on anything.

[Pelister]

And if it was ratified and Greece accepted us as 'fyrom' or 'RoM - Skopje', that makes it less disgraceful? Teshko tebe za pamet. Stop apologising for these weaklings in our government and understand once and for all that they are taking Greece to court for not calling us 'fyrom' in international organisations. It's like you taking me to court for not calling you a moron. Are you able to grasp this fact, or not?

That is precisely right. The entire proceeding is a sham. The more shallow Macedonians like the 'buzz' of it, and like our name 'out there' but they are the whorish types, who have no idea what is going or really care. By now it is clear to me that Gruevski is not only meddling directly with our identity, but that he has been pursuing these 'wild goose chases' to confuse the key issues, to deceive the Macedonians people more generally about the real issue - our extermination, and he has done it with flying colors. I don't believe for a moment anymore that the Macedonian leaders are not aware of their rights, or aware of the fact that we are not formally blocked from the United Nations, and that we would be admitted 'tomorrow' so to speak if they just asked for it. What about the dignity of the Macedonians, and self respect? Where is it? What the fk is Gruevski doing?

[Vangelovski]

Yes I remember the 20 pages worth of pissing you did on the Maknews topic. You where doing so well there you needed to create a fake account to back yourself. To me that speaks volume about character.

You should work on answering the questions which are confirmed by your admittance "its going to be difficult" - "What is and why"?

You have dodged and cowardly avoided questions on how to deal with with the difficulties, which you now ADMIT

So head down and do your homework before instructing anyone, particularly me on anything.

You really are a TURD and a LYING one at that! What is this fake account that I supposedly created? Other than making that claim, do you have any evidence at all?

If you remember the Maknews debates, then you should also remember that I and others constantly spoke of the difficulties involved, but the difference between us and yourself/Buktop (perhaps you are the same person, I see he as disappeared of late) was that we consider Macedonian freedom more important than fearing the challenges which lie ahead (for reversing the FA) and recognise that the longer we wait the less chances we will have of doing anything.

In relation to the IA, there are such minor "consequences" that no human being with the slightest inclination to exercise their natural rights should think twice about doing so.

Your problem is that you are ideologically flawed and do not want to see any moves towards Macedonian freedom. By promoting the unsubstantiated scaremongering that you are, you are doing nothing more than justifying these treasonous agreements and promoting their continued implementation.

[Volk]

Volk
Wouldn't we be better off approaching it from a positive forward planing method rather than reactive negative planning?

Thats just it Makedonche, how is planning ahead being reactive? Reactive is not planning ahead and trying to deal with each issue as it arises.

Doesn't it also show that the fact we have to plan for this at all is typical of the lack of previous planning/foresight/alternate political agendas?

Absolutely.

declare the IA and FA as invalid and start moving forward instead of being stuck in limbo, and not having to waste time and resources on matters negating our rights.

Both IA and FA go agaisnt the Macedonian nation world wide and need to be countered and corrected. Both are an example of the weak willed incompetence and inability to defend the Macedonian nation by the political elite in Macedonia.

I hope the MTO can provide a path and vision for this, more than just IA & FA need to go but how do we get there and counter the 'difficulties' that will arise from it.

[Volk]

You really are a TURD and a LYING one at that! What is this fake account that I supposedly created? Other than making that claim, do you have any evidence at all?

If you remember the Maknews debates, then you should also remember that I and others constantly spoke of the difficulties involved, but the difference between us and yourself/Buktop (perhaps you are the same person, I see he as disappeared of late) was that we consider Macedonian freedom more important than fearing the challenges which lie ahead (for reversing the FA) and recognise that the longer we wait the less chances we will have of doing anything.

In relation to the IA, there are such minor "consequences" that no human being with the slightest inclination to exercise their natural rights should think twice about doing so.

Your problem is that you are ideologically flawed and do not want to see any moves towards Macedonian freedom. By promoting the unsubstantiated scaremongering that you are, you are doing nothing more than justifying these treasonous agreements and promoting their continued implementation.

Ask Rogi the administrator of the time who exposed your fake account who is lying. Your a deceiver, and warp and misrepresent facts trying to blow your ego up.

Za lecene si.