International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Dimko-piperkata]

British attorney Philippe Sands who represents Macedonia is stunned by the 'arguments' and 'evidence' presented by the Greek Government at the Hague.

Mr. Sands isn't alone, so are the Hague journalist, who with Mr Sands claimed "Monty Python would have come up with something much better". Macedonian journalists watching the precedings were not suprised when a Greek attorney presented a photo of a basketball game in which a fan is seen waving the Macedonian flag with 16 rays.

"I have never seen in my career anything as pathetic as this. This is Monty Python", says Phillipe Sands who is also a Professor of International Law at the University College of London.

"How do you present a photo of a basketball fan waving a flag as evidence for justification of ilegally vetoing a nation from joining international organizations" says Mr. Sands.

A French attorney Bastid Burdeau representing Macedonia answered Greece's argument that Macedonia is the one who broke the Interim Agreement as 'illogical' adding "if Macedonia indeed broke the agreement Greece could have sued its neighbor yet it never did so."

Macedonia vs Greece session at the ICJ continues tomorrow...

http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/17820/45/

[George S.]

I'm not surprised by greek's stance on breaking the interim accord.They are in denial & twist it to their advantage.One argument is greece didn't veto macedonia it was member states that did it.If one beleives the BS & crap from greece one beleives anything.The flag issue is an example that macedonia has everyright to use the 16 ray sun but because it capitulated & compromised that's why it hasn't .It's all of greece's bullying macedonia & the ease of the way the govt can be swayed.

[Bill77]

Dimko,
Here is the one good thing that can come out of this Hearing. The world will see how ridiculous Greece is. po prosti se od gjupsi.

They produce a photo of a basketball supporter holding our flag and with that they try to justify their actions, yet on the border, the Greek government display the Kutlesh with writing "Macedonia is born Greek". Now this (together with many other provoking incidences) would be a genuine justification to walk away from negotiations.

[Dimko-piperkata]

we will see at the bottom line how independent the ICJ is in fact

[Vangelovski]

No you have never mentioned it would be anything but the stroke of a pen, why is it hard now?

And what Volk is doing is trying to make you and everyone else think about the best ways to achieve are goals, not just some piss in the wind statements which is all you have offered thus far.

If you have not seen anyone "mention it" then you and your buddy fyrOM need to start reading our posts rather than just posting uninformed dribble and spreading Gligorovist-style baseless Armageddon scenario's to justify and prop-up treasonous capitulation.

[makedonche]

Fully agree Volk.
It Twists, It Turns - is that the wind blowing! I have lost count of the number of posts telling me I am an idiot for thinking there would be NO consequences to deal with and hence a need to plan for. It was all vassal politicians and scared, brain dead Macedonians too scared to stand on their own two feet.

OziMak / Volk
Take very careful stock of what you are saying here - or at least intimating - my observations of these statements leads me to believe you are saying we need to "plan for consequences we need to deal with" - obviously arising from rejecting the IA & FA. If this is correct then it displays a reactive negative planning approach to the issues, this I disagree strongly with, RoM and all Macedonians should be positive planning for reinstatement of all of our "Soveriegn Rights", Human Rights and the right to maintain our history, language, culture and traditions!
Tell me where I am wrong here and let me have one of your detailed analogies so that I don't remain confused any longer!

[Vangelovski]

Usually when agreements are removed , the other side who signed the documents will call for sanctions and it will result in less investitions. Rather than this, why not arrest the people that signed it ? It's close to treason.

I can tell you that Greece has made agreements under the table that bind us today with Turkey. It is said that Simitis ( Ex PM ) had made an agreement with Turkey in Madrid that gave an acknowledgment of " Grey Zones " in the Aegean that Turkey has been trying so many years to make defacto, much less have a specific written agreement such as the IA.

I can understand what OziMak is trying to say. You cant just back out of agreements just because you dont like them, or without major planning. Some of our PM's in the past have been just as treasonous as Gligorov has been to you. This is the life of politics. You win some, you lose some.

Its interesting to note the two greeks are the only ones supportive of fyrOM and Volks position on the IA...

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dimko,
Here is the one good thing that can come out of this Hearing. The world will see how ridiculous Greece is.

What the world will see is a pathetic self-loathing government of a country that is begging to enter NATO and the EU by an imposed acronym, and bitching about Greece not accepting Macedonia by this acronym. It will be of no true value to us, as we are not there to fight for our real name, but instead to fight for an imposed acronym. It is pathetic on so many levels. This is all about getting Macedonia into NATO and the EU, and has nothing to do with our integrity and rights as a people.

Gruevski and Ivanov should be ashamed of themselves for taking the Macedonians on such a demeaning venture where they are further stripped of their historical identity. Even if we win, what do you think the 'world' will do? Accept us into these international organisations by the acronym at the expense of our identity? We should all be so proud!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Its interesting to note the two greeks are the only ones supportive of fyrOM and Volks position on the IA...

That is usually the case. Although I think our friend 'Imagination' is a Bulgar and not a Greek.

So why the persistent avoidance and virtual denial that ANYTHING would happen and since Nothing can happen we should be pressuring for the immediate cessation of the IA and FA?

The only person that is in denial is yourself. We are well aware of what has happened and what is in place, our aim is to reverse this treachery, whereas yours is to keep the status quo - as if this there is no chance at all for these treasonous acts to be changed and for things to go in our favour. While you're still waiting for Gruevski to activate the non-existent 'master plan', we are trying to bring a halt to the treachery against our nation.

Like I told you on the other thread, you are basically done here. You're causing nothing but problems and dissent with your pathetic and nonsensical garbage, and are misrepresenting what this forum is about - and that is to promote Macedonian integrity and not belittle it by accepting as permanent the treasonous acts of our governments. Start looking for new topics to discuss with people that can tolerate your idiocy, or start looking for another forum, because this one will no longer be polluted by your sick ideology.

[Volk]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volk View Post
No you have never mentioned it would be anything but the stroke of a pen, why is it hard now?

And what Volk is doing is trying to make you and everyone else think about the best ways to achieve are goals, not just some piss in the wind statements which is all you have offered thus far.
If you have not seen anyone "mention it" then you and your buddy fyrOM need to start reading our posts rather than just posting uninformed dribble and spreading Gligorovist-style baseless Armageddon scenario's to justify and prop-up treasonous capitulation.

Tom stop the BS and show me one post where you mentioned about any difficulty. You have sung and pissed your way around how it should be done, NOW YOU HAVE ADMITTED ITS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT Hallelujah!!

Exactly what is going to be difficult about it and why? What barriers need to be overcome and how?

[George S.]

did you see that they got professors of law working on it.What's the point when you are approaching it with a name like fyrom.I thought a member state is entitled to veto anyone it wants regardless of agreements.The interim accord agreement maybe a temporary agreement that is simply disregarded for practical purposes.It may be a waste of time where macedonia is asked to come to an amicable solution with greece.Lose lose situation.
The macedonian's people feelings on the matter a simply disgarded & not taken notice of as it becomes a battle of who is the smartest.

[Volk]

Take very careful stock of what you are saying here - or at least intimating - my observations of these statements leads me to believe you are saying we need to "plan for consequences we need to deal with" - obviously arising from rejecting the IA & FA. If this is correct then it displays a reactive negative planning approach to the issues, this I disagree strongly with, RoM and all Macedonians should be positive planning for reinstatement of all of our "Soveriegn Rights", Human Rights and the right to maintain our history, language, culture and traditions!
Tell me where I am wrong here and let me have one of your detailed analogies so that I don't remain confused any longer!

Makedonche, the whole argument is not that Macedonia should not withdraw from the IA & FA agreement but it should do so in a way which does not jeopardize the integrity of the state. There are many factors which can contribute to this which have been covered on many occasions including in this thread.

Perhaps Vangelovski can enlighten everyone about the admitted difficulties we face from such moves and solutions to overcome them.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I thought a member state is entitled to veto anyone it wants regardless of agreements.The interim accord agreement maybe a temporary agreement that is simply disregarded for practical purposes.

They are allowed to veto, so unless the UN changes its 'rules' nothing will happen. What Macedonia needs to do is pull out of the UN as 'fyrom' and re-apply as Macedonia. Open up dialogue on this front, and cease playing these games with our identity which are of no value to us as a people. We have been disgraced enough already, it is time to start taking back our respect.

[makalek]

Dimko,
Here is the one good thing that can come out of this Hearing. The world will see how ridiculous Greece is. po prosti se od gjupsi.

They produce a photo of a basketball supporter holding our flag and with that they try to justify their actions, yet on the border, the Greek government display the Kutlesh with writing "Macedonia is born Greek". Now this (together with many other provoking incidences) would be a genuine justification to walk away from negotiations.

This photo of that basketball supporter is actually Milososki's young son who was holding the flag. I believe this basketball game was between Macedonia and Great Britain which we ended up winning.

How silly is Greece? They are using as evidence a young child waving a flag.

Here is the photo:

[Vangelovski]

Tom stop the BS and show me one post where you mentioned about any difficulty. You have sung and pissed your way around how it should be done, NOW YOU HAVE ADMITTED ITS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT Hallelujah!!

Exactly what is going to be difficult about it and why? What barriers need to be overcome and how?

The only one that has been "pissing" their way around here is you, trying to tell us stories about total destruction and famine, energy and self-sufficient military/industrial complexes, great games and chess matches and similar nonsense that you probably took out of a Tom Clancy novel.

We have in fact gone over this very topic time and again, largely on Maknews when you were playing back-up vocals for Buktop. Maybe you should do a search here on the MTO and see if you can find anything, otherwise wait for a more detailed thread that I am working on, which hopefully will become a sticky and you will not be able to pretend it does not exist by waiting for it to get buried after a few months.

In the meantime, you should familiarise yourself (though I doubt you will) with the Framework Agreement (and related legislation and constitutional amendments) and Interim Accord. You should also do some basic research on what other countries have in place (in relation to the FA) and relevant international law and practice (and whether it holds any legitimacy) in relation to the IA. The difficulty for you will be the fact that all of this will require critical thinking in order to determine how it affects Macedonia and whether it is based on natural law. I am not sure that you will overcome this challenge, but that should not discourage you from tyring.

Your uninformed and baseless scaremongering is pathetic and demonstrates an obvious fondness for the Ramkovist vassal state that your ideological mentors have created.