International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[osiris]

Not trying to insult you only trying to warn you. I get it now any disagreements with the party lime are to be presumed treasonous and the people who present them as traitors. Good luck but i can't be part of a forum that has already determined the truth and insults and belittles as traitors any dissenting views. You may think you are doing the right thing by jumping on anyone and everyone when they male comments unpalatable to whoever is against the mto view but you are wrong you are alienating many readers and many patriotic Macedonians. I have recomended mto to many people and the feedback I am getting is its history section is great but the mto official line is intolerant dogmatic and fanatical if that's your aim you have achieved it
but will it be an effective forum for promoting the Macedonian cause it maybe to others who already agree with you
in my opinion that's not the role of a forum it should be to educate and convert the ones who disagree with you

[indigen]

In 1995 every Macedonian organisation worth their salt CONDEMNED and OPPOSED the CAPITULATION that was entailed in the "Interim ACCORD" and today (in 2011) NOT ONE (that I am aware of) MACEDONIAN ORGANISATION has publicly opposed and condemned the Ramkovist Gruevski VASSAL REGIME going to the ICJ to ENFORCE this TREASONOUS ANTI-MACEDONIAN DEED. That in my view speaks volumes for the state of Macedonian patriotism today throughout the "organised" diaspora communities.

The state (of health) of Macedonian patriotism in Macedonian dispora communities today (or in the era of Ramkovist Macedonia) is, IMO, an interesting subject for some in-depth study and/or discussion.

Lastly, the IA has been in force for over 15 years now and it is hardly news to moderately informed Macedonians for what it entails and what it would mean taking it to the ICJ to legitimise it at the highest level of international law.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I get it now any disagreements with the party lime are to be presumed treasonous and the people who present them as traitors

Clearly, you don't get 'it', and your over-reaction is leading you to make false allegations.

Good luck but i can't be part of a forum that has already determined the truth and insults and belittles as traitors any dissenting views.

A silly generalisation. It is not 'any' dissenting views, it is some core views that we cannot allow compromise on. You've chimed in here defending a clown who only a couple of weeks ago was supporting the suggestion that Macedonia should enter NATO and the EU by a name other than the official state name. That is your prerogative, defeatist as it may be, don't expect us here to follow suit.

I have recomended mto to many people and the feedback I am getting is its history section is great but the mto official line is intolerant dogmatic and fanatical.......

Ignorance can hardly be used as an excuse any longer, so we are intolerant to anti-Macedonian views and propaganda, but not intolerant to all alternate views. That is just a picture that you've conjured in your own mind and are trying to disseminate to others. Macedonians need to stop being submissive and show some solidarity where it concerns our position on self-determination and integrity, so it is sad to see someone like yourself who has been involved in the community for so long taking such a fickle stance. I am confident that informed Macedonians are at their limits with being on the back foot - we need to assert ourselves, we need to criticise those that aren't in line with the Macedonian Cause. I am happy that I was criticised in the past by people like yourself and Risto, it helped me better myself and my thinking.

For anybody that wants to have an objective take on what the official line of the MTO is - see the Macedonian Cause thread.

[Risto the Great]

I have recomended mto to many people and the feedback I am getting is its history section is great but the mto official line is intolerant dogmatic and fanatical if that's your aim you have achieved it
but will it be an effective forum for promoting the Macedonian cause it maybe to others who already agree with you
in my opinion that's not the role of a forum it should be to educate and convert the ones who disagree with you

Osiris, the role of a forum is dialogue. There is no doubt about that. So what happens if you can't convince someone that the path they have taken is wrong? Does it mean they are automatically right?

If fyrOM has a character flaw that means he will never grasp Macedonia's failures, that is his problem.

I will remind all of our "touchy feely" people on this forum .... THE ONLY THING MACEDONIA HAS NEVER EVER DONE IS ASSERT ITSELF.

Far too many weak wishy washy Macedonians who proudly proclaim their ancestry yet do not understand the message of our ancestors.

I have conclusive proof that the path Macedonia has taken over the last 15 years has been wrong. There is not even a little bit of doubt about this. When people refer to Macedonia's failures, they call it a "Makedonska Rabota". I now realise it is a peasant mentality that is light years away from a liberated and progressive mentality.

If you had to put a bet on results from a given ideology .... put your money on a Macedonia that believes it has sovereign rights and questions why it needs to seek external approval in relation to its identity.

Unfortunately Osiris, you have to make a stand at some point in time. If you are standing on a soap box and demanding action, you have to do it with conviction.

I remember an Osiris who used to be supportive of Aboriginal rights (as an example). Quite fanatical and dogmatic rights if I recall correctly. I don't think you would put up with too much of an attack on your identity. My suggestion to you is that when a Macedonian is willing to put a qualifier to my identity, they are of no use to Macedonians. Perhaps you should make more of an effort to understand fyrOM's ideology before you tell us to merely be nicer to him. I will never support such Macedonians in their endeavours.

And if the MTO dies a crushing death and is only remembered for (un-compromisingly) insisting all Macedonians develop self-respect and encourage Macedonia to assert its sovereign rights. It will be a first. I am fine with that. The rest can hold themselves to blame for the pitiful Macedonian identity that exists today.

[Vangelovski]

Wow ozimak is now the mortal enemy of Macedonia. lets not make this forum one dimensional with a rigid party line otherwise it will become as sterile and irrelevant as maknews. I think he has copped enough abuse and I am surprised that this is happening to this forum.

Osiris, what's your idea of free debate? Let fyrOM post his views unchallenged? Why is it that whenever someones views are challenged its automatically a "witchhunt"? Its actually this attitude that you have just displayed that made Maknews irrelevant. Noone has ever being disallowed from posting here (as far as I know). But noone is allowed a free reign. All and any views can be challenged and responded to. Why do you think we should give free reign to those that promote vassal obedience or treason?

I too remember an Osiris a few years ago that was much more assertive in relation to Macedonians exercising their natural rights. What I see today is a very pale version of the old Osiris.

[osiris]

the best of luck rtg i like and admire you and I hope the forum achieves more than just a patriotic bang and then nothing. We will have to agree to disagree as to what a forum should achieve personally i dont feel comfortable on here anymore and there is no point in my being here. Vangelovski you are a religious fanatic what a waste of an obvious sharp intellect and indigen weren't you once not so long ago the president of the lupcho bugaroman fan club but you have learnt a new mantra now, gruevski predavnik ventilator vassal state. You too are a waste of intellect and passion. I have singled you and vangelovski because I think you two are very talented people but are also the two most to blame for the straight jacket this forum now proudly wears, I challenge you two to go back to Macedonia and start acting on your beliefs if you are the patriots you claim to be

I think this forum has painted itself into a corner and needs to break the party line asap. I write the above because i am concerned you will have to do what you believe is right as I must do what I think is right .

[Vangelovski]

Osiris,

You're about to fail another fundamental question in relation to your views - yet another massive contradiction. WHY do you think we should give anyone a free reign on here and not challenge their views? Specifically, why should we give fyrOM's anti-Macedonian views a free reign? You seem to only want "open" and "honest" debate if it does not challenge YOUR worldview.

[Risto the Great]

Osiris, I am sure you will find this is one of the most honest and committed forums on Macedonian affairs in the world. Our position is clear in matters of ideology as it pertains to Macedonia.

I embarrassingly admit that a few years ago I would have been fine with a bi-lateral name solution with Greece. I have had time to re-consider my position and can only see one way forward for Macedonia. It is a simple way that requires the first step being placing the highest regard for Macedonia's sovereignty. You can say this place is not for you, but that means you disagree with the general thrust of the more vocal on this forum. As a matter of decency you should explain what you particularly disagree with.

Should we be nicer to people about the new flag of capitulation? Me, I can't divorce that capitulation from the name FYROM.

Should Macedonians in Macedonia be left to decide what is best for them? Me, I disagree and if you don't then you should reject the likes of MHRMI and AMHRC for taking a position (in Macedonia) to demand a stop to negotiations.

Should we take a more moderate strategy in relation to asserting our identity? Me, I can't see how. It is black or white. You are either Macedonian or you are something else.

So rather than suggesting this is a fanatical, dogmatic place, you should explain what specific ideologies you have problems with. Start with the Macedonian Cause.

If I said I don't want to see you anymore, I would give a reason.

If your reason is because of Vangelovski's religious persuasions and/or Indigen's views on Macedonism, then I would conclude your assessment has been superficial.

[indigen]

and indigen weren't you once not so long ago the president of the lupcho bugaroman fan club but you have learnt a new mantra now, gruevski predavnik ventilator vassal state.

Que?

You too are a waste of intellect and passion.

Since I never claimed (or thought of myself) to be an intellect of any kind, I should take your jibe as a backhanded compliment. ))

I have singled you and vangelovski because I think you two are very talented people

As it relates to me, I don't see what valuable talents I posses but I will take that as backhanded flattery.

but are also the two most to blame for the straight jacket this forum now proudly wears,

I don't have any special powers over the admins nor even any contact (except on very, very rare and forum admin related occasions) with them bar what I post here from time to time and thus I don't see why I should be "blamed" (I could consider it as flattery if it were to be true but it is not!) for anything that pleases or displeases you. You are not forced to read my posts and I don't flood the forums like some others do.

Secondly, one man's ideological straight jacket may be another man's perfect ideological fit, just like the old saying of one man's terrorist being someone else's freedom fighter! Horses for courses, mate!

I challenge you two to go back to Macedonia and start acting on your beliefs if you are the patriots you claim to be

Shit, now you are telling forum members where to live! Aren't you overstepping the mark a little bit? ))

I think this forum has painted itself into a corner and needs to break the party line asap.

What does that mean? Maybe you are not happy there is no more a vocal cheering squad for Grujo ad Co? Perhaps you should take into account that there have been recent political developments that have led many who were deceived and in the cheering squads to rethink their support for Grujo and ALL politicians in Mk.

I write the above because i am concerned you will have to do what you believe is right as I must do what I think is right.

I think it is all unfounded gibberish as it relates to myself but think what you like!

[Rogi]

I suppose in some regard I will agree with Osiris here in that I think the forum is, and I say this very loosely, beginning to focus more on criticising the individual and their character, rather than their argument.

It is hard to accept and swallow the fact that there are Macedonians who are not unwavering, who have not realised the truths that many of us here have realised, unfortunately however they exist and they are in fact the majority.

I too think that many times we are far too harsh and critical of our own brethren and rather than using this forum as an inviting and open vessel for providing guidance and awareness, we are more and more preaching to the choir and becoming an uninviting closed book for those 'uninitiated' - sure we may be fed up having to re-explain core and basic concepts, but if we do not, then that is at our own peril.

The 'uninitiated' are immediately labelled ignorant, traitors, morons, vassals, etc and it is these keywords which will never allow them to actually learn and understand some of the core concepts that have been discussed over and over on this forum and if we take the view that everyone must toe the line without having gone through the process of learning and understanding, then all we do is reject them and label them, and our views on the definition of the Macedonian Cause will not be given the right opportunity to become mainstream.

The truth isn't always just accepted, and we cannot expect it to be, it must be proven, argued, reinforced... lather, rinse, repeat...

[Soldier of Macedon]

I suppose in some regard I will agree with Osiris here in that I think the forum is, and I say this very loosely, beginning to focus more on criticising the individual and their character, rather than their argument....

And I will say to you what I said to Osiris, you are making an inaccurate generalisation which misrepresents the collective membership of this forum. You are referring to a few individuals and the way they react to certain matters and painting the rest of forum with the same brush. You are talking about people that are ignorant, while we are talking about people that have been here long enough to be adequately informed, yet still push an opinion not congruent with the Macedonian Cause.

There has to be a time when such people are held accountable for their own words, and if their informed opinion is not in line with the Macedonian Cause, then they are counter-productive and enemies of the Cause. Insinuating that we are now too 'critical' of people - without addressing each case specifically, means you haven't really been following all of the discussions and have made an observation lacking detail, clarity and consequently, the truth.

[fyrOM]

the best of luck rtg i like and admire you and I hope the forum achieves more than just a patriotic bang and then nothing. We will have to agree to disagree as to what a forum should achieve personally i dont feel comfortable on here anymore and there is no point in my being here. Vangelovski you are a religious fanatic what a waste of an obvious sharp intellect and indigen weren't you once not so long ago the president of the lupcho bugaroman fan club but you have learnt a new mantra now, gruevski predavnik ventilator vassal state. You too are a waste of intellect and passion. I have singled you and vangelovski because I think you two are very talented people but are also the two most to blame for the straight jacket this forum now proudly wears, I challenge you two to go back to Macedonia and start acting on your beliefs if you are the patriots you claim to be

I think this forum has painted itself into a corner and needs to break the party line asap. I write the above because i am concerned you will have to do what you believe is right as I must do what I think is right .

Dang Osiris! Let me wash my hands and hide the paint-tin before you expose anything.hahaha

Vangelovski Postt212...

Noone has ever being disallowed from posting here (as far as I know). But noone is allowed a free reign. All and any views can be challenged and responded to.

By all means challenge EVERYTHING! It is how we get to the truth. It's your (collective) method and logic and dogma that lets you down. But that's you (collective)holding the paint brush and everyone can see it!

By the way, I was going to write a piece on how everything ties in together - because it seems to me the 'tie-ins' is where a lot of people don't get it - but then realised how long it was going to be (ie rule: don't post too long) and how long it would take me to do it, I had to weigh-up the cost versus benefit and after the logic shown in some more recent posts (any thread) I had to factor in the 'am I going to showing a typewritten to the proverbial '1000 Chimps' and since it's all going to unravel progressively over the next 2-3 years I thought i would just wait until each bit happens and then say,"see I told you so."

Don't beri gajle you will have more time and space to assert your views - people are already watching and thinking - I'll stand aside, a little, mind.

[Risto the Great]

I suppose in some regard I will agree with Osiris here in that I think the forum is, and I say this very loosely, beginning to focus more on criticising the individual and their character, rather than their argument.

I think you can pick any poster on the forum and view their treatment as time goes by. The benefit of the doubt is usually always afforded. Very few people follow the forum as closely as the moderators and a few other committed participants.

When someone backflips on matters of ideology and is purposefully vague, then they deserve to be questioned. They may have an agenda or else they may just be mentally deficient. I don't really think fyrOM has an agenda.

Rogi, do you agree with OziMak's sentiments. In a nutshell he says the following:

Macedonia needs to be fearful of asserting its sovereign rights because it will be attacked for doing this. Demanding to be called Macedonia will economically destroy Macedonia.

Why don't you take him under your wing and gently coax him out of his delusions? If you don't want to, please reconcile his thought processes with the Macedonian Cause. How is he helping?

[Vangelovski]

fyrOM, first you claimed "things" would unfold by the end of the year, now its 2-3 years. Can we expect another 20? Maybe we need another 40 years to bring about the supposed "grand strategy" that Gligorov initiated 20 years ago? I wonder how that supposed "grand strategy" could even unfold when you consider that Macedonians would have completely lost control of their own state because of the two illegitimate and treasonous agreements? In fact, are you even able to show us any evidence of any supposed "grand strategy" even existing? From the vast amounts of evidence that I've seen through my research (including my own political contacts in Macedonia) the nearly complete deconstruction of the Macedonian state is a result of a combination of vassal politicians interested in their own personal careers and a slave mentality sprinkled with political immaturity and inexperience.

Rogi,

I can only reiterate RtG's comments and suggest that you take fyrOM under your wing. Otherwise, perhaps read his posts and the responses to them over the past few years.

[UMDiaspora.org]

Public Hearings: Macedonia vs. Greece at ICJ

You can watch the public hearings here: http://www.icj-cij.org/presscom/multimedia.php?p1=6 - it just started.