International Court of Justice - Macedonia and Greece

[Vangelovski]

Tom, you fail to understand my argument... you go about picking bits and pieces whilst ignoring the ACTUAL ARGUMENT. Your the RAT that has previously created fake accounts to back yourself up and the continual circle which you keep playing around and ignoring the questions posed to you over and over and over again make you exactly your favourite term RAT. When your ready to answer the questions, or are you forgetful yet again?

What is your argument RAT? All you have done is argue in favour of the status quo and provided idiotic assumptions that clearly show that you are either uninformed or a treasonous RAT.

What "fake accounts"? Which ones? I'd like the administrators to clarify whether or not I have any other account here to show the LIAR for what he is.

[Vangelovski]

I would rather use planning and reason

What "planning and reason" have you ever demonstrated? All you have done is provide us with uninformed, idiotic, bong-induced analogies.

[Volk]

What is your argument RAT? All you have done is argue in favour of the status quo and provided idiotic assumptions that clearly show that you are either uninformed or a treasonous RAT.

What "fake accounts"? Which ones? I'd like the administrators to clarify whether or not I have any other account here to show the LIAR for what he is.

All you have done is demonstrate your infantile idiocy. Your fake account creation was on maknews when we where discussing the same topic, years later you still cannot answer any questions only throw smoke and moronic accusations about 'treacherous rats'.

Your whole argument is to distract from actual debate because as per 2 years ago you are still full of the same stupid shit.

[Vangelovski]

All you have done is demonstrate your infantile idiocy. Your fake account creation was on maknews when we where discussing the same topic, years later you still cannot answer any questions only throw smoke and moronic accusations about 'treacherous rats'.

Your whole argument is to distract from actual debate because as per 2 years ago you are still full of the same stupid shit.

What fake account you LIAR? Are you sure you have not confused it with someone else, just like you have been confusing the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord?

How can one debate with someone that does not even understand the difference between the two agreements and with whom they were made, let alone the complexities on the ground in Macedonia? The most you have come up with is the same idiotic argument that Gligorov, Maleski and Frckovski were pushing 20 years ago - capitulate or we'll either be invaded or starved to death!

How many state institutions do you want to fall under Albanian control before you are "willing" to do something about the Framework Agreement? How many parallel institutions are you willing to allow the Albanians to create (like in Kosovo) before you would attempt to regain control of Macedonian territory? Do you even know what the situation is on the ground? Do you know how the FA is being implemented? Have you worked out what the FA is?

What idiotic "reasoning" have you provided in favour of maintianing the Interim Accord with Greece other than we are not ready? Ready for what? Do you even know what the Interim Accord is? Do you have any understanding of national sovereignty? Do you have any f'ing idea WHAT happened during the early 90's and WHY? Do you have any idea what has been happening since then? Of course not! If you did, you would not post the crap that you are! Unless of course you're a Macedonian Government lapdog (which you have made fairly obvious that you are). What on earth do you think would happen if Macedonia, like every other country, took control of its own affairs? Why is it that you think Macedonia is a special case and the only state that should not determine its own affairs, including the use of its own state name?

What a RAT! You cannot even distinguish between the two agreements that have deconstructed the Macedonian state or the most fundamental principles on which the global community works in theory and practice, and here you are pretending to have some "grand strategy" like that Charlatan Buktop before you. I see no logical thinking, no understanding of the basic issues and absolutely no vision. Rather, I see an internet TURD who cannot even use his own identity and needs to hide behind a wannabe set of characteristics (which is a grave insult to wolves) spreading Macedonian Government/UMD propaganda!

[Risto the Great]

Seriously, wake up ignorant Macedonians. If the time is not right now to improve the situation, it certainly was never right to worsen the situation. Yet the fearful among us want to keep saying how much worse it could get. If you can't see that as blatant support for the current capitulations, then you do not deserve the "airtime" on this forum.

Do I have to spell it out for the thick people?

GREEK: Macedonia .... call yourself FYROM.
Fearful response (Insert apologist name here) ..... the time is not right to complain, quick lets call us FYROM.

GREEK: Macedonia ... change your flag.
Fearful response (Insert apologist name here) ..... the time is not right to complain, quick lets change the flag.

EU/UN/USA: Macedonia ... change your constitution to empower the poor Albanian minority.
Fearful response (Insert apologist name here) ..... the time is not right to complain, quick lets change our constitution.

Every moron that says the time is not right is unequivocally supporting the sellouts that sold Macedonia. You will figure it out eventually. Shame on you.

[Volk]

The Interim Accord refers to the treachery between Macedonia and Greece. Nothing of severe consequence will happen to us should we decide to pull out from it. That is my opinion - what's yours?

"nothing of severe consequence" great analysis...

Something will happen, but we dont know...
The albanians are used as a trojan horse, all they need is a green light and they will pick up arms again. If we are ready to handle them only the government knows.

What I do know is that the "accord should be abandoned"

The Framework Agreement (what you confusingly refer to as a "peace" accord), should be declared void and the ethnic Albanians in Macedonia should retain all of the same rights which are afforded to other minorities. In terms of human and civic rights - they lose nothing. The FA isn't a "peace" accord, as you so ignorantly refer to it, but a treacherous agreement in which Macedonia lost its sovereignty as a nation. It needs to be reversed. If reactions happen, they will happen irrespective of when it is done - now or 10 years from now. The only difference is, in 10 years it will be all the more harder to achieve as a goal. That is my opinion - what's yours?

The framework agreement was a peace deal, maybe you need to check your facts about 2001. In fact I would go further and call it a terms of surrender since Macedonia became a country for the citizens, not the Macedonians... so for this we can agree

treacherous agreement in which Macedonia lost its sovereignty as a nation

By opinion on the issue is that the Ohrid 'peace accord' aka terms of surrender aka framework agreement is only temporary for the albanians as they ultimatley want greater albania.

Either way there will be another war in Macedonia needs to be prapared for.

[Soldier of Macedon]

"nothing of severe consequence" great analysis...

Something will happen, but we dont know...
The albanians are used as a trojan horse, all they need is a green light and they will pick up arms again.

The honour of 'great analysis' is all yours, why, with your attention to detail, so melodramatic it's almost cinematic, "something will happen, but we dont know", lol, sounds like a movie trailer.

I see that you're now insinuating that the Albanians will be given the 'green light' if Macedonia declares the IA void. Seriously, I don't think there have been this many conspiracy theories since Roswell.

...... framework agreement is only temporary for the albanians as they ultimatley want greater albania.

Either way there will be another war in Macedonia needs to be prapared for.

If the FA is 'only temporary' and there will be 'another war' in Macedonia, as you say, then what is it that we should 'wait' for? Do you think Albanian extremists will weaken with time? Do you see our troop or weapon numbers increasing in any significant degree? Perhaps we are waiting for your leader Grujo to give the Macedonians a 'green light', is that it?

Let me quote Risto:

Every moron that says the time is not right is unequivocally supporting the sellouts that sold Macedonia. You will figure it out eventually. Shame on you.

[Volk]

The honour of 'great analysis' is all yours, why, with your attention to detail, so melodramatic it's almost cinematic, "something will happen, but we dont know", lol, sounds like a movie trailer.

I see that you're now insinuating that the Albanians will be given the 'green light' if Macedonia declares the IA void. Seriously, I don't think there have been this many conspiracy theories since Roswell.

If the FA is 'only temporary' and there will be 'another war' in Macedonia, as you say, then what is it that we should 'wait' for? Do you think Albanian extremists will weaken with time? Do you see our troop or weapon numbers increasing in any significant degree? Perhaps we are waiting for your leader Grujo to give the Macedonians a 'green light', is that it?

"something will happen, but we dont know", lol, sounds like a movie trailer.

LOL!
There are many factors that need to be taken into account SOM, I've outlined them before on more than one occasion they include: IC response, EU response, Macedonian supply channels, military industry, ethnic minorities, regional powers ect... these need to be balanced to the outcome is positive for Macedonia.

The only difference between my stance and yours is that I cannot see how a move against both accord and agreement simultaniously will not turn all players against us, you have failed to show me how or why they would not

[Soldier of Macedon]

Great, we're getting somewhere (I think). Now, give me an example of:

IC response, EU response

Macedonian supply channels

military industry

regional powers

Why have you mentioned 'ethnic minorities' in plural, is there someone else in Macedonia aside from the ethnic Albanians that you're fearful of?

....these need to be balanced to the outcome is positive for Macedonia.

What are you talking about?

[Volk]

lets play your game again:

IC response, EU response

by closing the door on EU and NATO membership (which the majority of all citizens want):

- no more EU funding
- rise in ethnic tensions
- fall of government party

Macedonian supply channels

Macedonia should be ready for any economic and military embargos like it experienced inthe 90s. This means either full or partial self sufficiency for arms and energy. Embargos or threat of embargos can be used as levarage as they were before.

Has Macedonia overcome this threat?

is there someone else in Macedonia aside from the ethnic Albanians that you're fearful of?

There is a difference between 'fearful' and mindful or ready for. And no I was reffering to the albanians. You seem to think they will give up thier war spoils with no opposition? justify your claim.

[Mactruth]

Macedonia confident at ICJ

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/150286.html

FM Milososki: "Macedonia ready to confront Greece before ICJ"
18. March 2011. | 14:34

Source: MIA

Foreign Affairs Minister Antonio Milososki said that in its application, Macedonia requests ICJ to determine that Greece at the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008 breached Article 11 from the Interim Accord, i.e. it objected the NATO membership invitation for Macedonia, even though it would be referred to by the interim reference. The Court is requested to bind Greece to immediately make all the necessary steps in order to respect its obligations under Article 11.

The Republic of Macedonia is well-prepared for a public hearing, which is to be held this Monday before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague in relation to a lawsuit against the Republic of Greece for breaching the Interim Accord signed by the countries in 1995.

Foreign Affairs Minister Antonio Milososki at a press briefing on Thursday said that in its application, Macedonia requests ICJ to determine that Greece at the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008 breached Article 11 from the Interim Accord, i.e. it objected the NATO membership invitation for Macedonia, even though it would be referred to by the interim reference. The Court is requested to bind Greece to immediately make all the necessary steps in order to respect its obligations under Article 11.

The head of country's diplomacy, who will lead the Macedonian delegation to Monday's hearing, said the proceedings do not refer to the political name dispute between Macedonia and Greece and the Court will not settle the countries' differences involving the name. He noted that ICJ proceedings and negotiations aiming at overcoming the differences involving the name are two separate and different processes. "It is not expected the verdict to affect the negotiation stances of Macedonia regarding the name and the country with and without this lawsuit will continue with a political dialogue in order the name row to be closed, because the only way to settle the issue is through the UN-brokered talks."

"It is an international and legal dispute in which Greece is the focus of the lawsuit, not NATO and it refers to Greece's treatment prior to and during the Bucharest Summit," Milososki elaborated.

"We would respect the verdict, whatever it is going to be, but we would not prejudice before it is pronounced. The most important thing is to present Macedonia's arguments and facts before the Court, which are to lay grounds for a just decision to be reached," FM Milososki said.

He added that both parties in the dispute have agreed oral arguments to be presented at a hearing, which will be open for the public. Macedonia, Milososki said, has requested during the proceedings the Republic of Macedonia to be addressed by its temporary reference in full, instead by its acronym, which is in line with Resolution 817 of the UN Security Council.

The court deliberating the Macedonian lawsuit is comprised of 15 judges from all over the world, except from Macedonia and Greece. Both parties in the dispute have appointed one ad hoc judge each. Macedonia is going to be represented by a judge from Croatia, Budislav Vukas. "The choice was made taking into consideration his collaboration with the faculty of law in Skopje, excellent recommendations and solid reputation," stated Milososki.

Asked whether Greece will respect the ICJ decision, the minister said that the Court's verdicts were final and binding for UN members, i.e for parties involved in the dispute.

Macedonia as arguments amongst other things will present all statements and texts published in the press that are deemed useful and valuable.

ICJ will deliberate the appeal after the second stage of the process of oral arguments is completed, i.e. after March 30. The verdict is expected to be reached prior to or after the summer holidays, in the fall at the latest. During this period, the Court will monitor actions taken by both countries, which is why a briefing was held recently with representatives of all relevant Macedonian political parties, who have confirmed that their actions will be rational and sensible.

The public hearing in the Hague-based court will be held between March 21-30. According to a schedule posted on its website, the hearing will consist two rounds. In the first round, Macedonia will present its oral arguments on March 21 and 22, while Greece will present its counter-arguments on March 24-25. In the second round of oral arguments, on March 28 the team representing Macedonia will have the chance to respond orally to Greece's defence. The public hearing will end on March 30, when Greece is to present its closing arguments.

Macedonia filed its application before the International Court of Justice against Greece in November 2008, which was followed by two detailed written memorandums from 20 July 2009 and 9 June 2010.

[indigen]

http://www.emg.rs/en/news/region/150286.html


FM Milososki: "Macedonia ready to confront Greece before ICJ"
18. March 2011. | 14:34

Source: MIA

Foreign Affairs Minister Antonio Milososki said that in its application, Macedonia requests ICJ to determine that Greece at the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008 breached Article 11 from the Interim Accord, i.e. it objected the NATO membership invitation for Macedonia, even though it would be referred to by the interim reference. The Court is requested to bind Greece to immediately make all the necessary steps in order to respect its obligations under Article 11.

The Republic of Macedonia is well-prepared for a public hearing, which is to be held this Monday before the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague in relation to a lawsuit against the Republic of Greece for breaching the Interim Accord signed by the countries in 1995.

Foreign Affairs Minister Antonio Milososki at a press briefing on Thursday said that in its application, Macedonia requests ICJ to determine that Greece at the NATO summit in Bucharest in April 2008 breached Article 11 from the Interim Accord, i.e. it objected the NATO membership invitation for Macedonia, even though it would be referred to by the interim reference. The Court is requested to bind Greece to immediately make all the necessary steps in order to respect its obligations under Article 11.

The head of country's diplomacy, who will lead the Macedonian delegation to Monday's hearing, said the proceedings do not refer to the political name dispute between Macedonia and Greece and the Court will not settle the countries' differences involving the name. He noted that ICJ proceedings and negotiations aiming at overcoming the differences involving the name are two separate and different processes. "It is not expected the verdict to affect the negotiation stances of Macedonia regarding the name and the country with and without this lawsuit will continue with a political dialogue in order the name row to be closed, because the only way to settle the issue is through the UN-brokered talks."

"It is an international and legal dispute in which Greece is the focus of the lawsuit, not NATO and it refers to Greece's treatment prior to and during the Bucharest Summit," Milososki elaborated.

"We would respect the verdict, whatever it is going to be, but we would not prejudice before it is pronounced. The most important thing is to present Macedonia's arguments and facts before the Court, which are to lay grounds for a just decision to be reached," FM Milososki said.

He added that both parties in the dispute have agreed oral arguments to be presented at a hearing, which will be open for the public. Macedonia, Milososki said, has requested during the proceedings the Republic of Macedonia to be addressed by its temporary reference in full, instead by its acronym, which is in line with Resolution 817 of the UN Security Council.

The court deliberating the Macedonian lawsuit is comprised of 15 judges from all over the world, except from Macedonia and Greece. Both parties in the dispute have appointed one ad hoc judge each. Macedonia is going to be represented by a judge from Croatia, Budislav Vukas. "The choice was made taking into consideration his collaboration with the faculty of law in Skopje, excellent recommendations and solid reputation," stated Milososki.

Asked whether Greece will respect the ICJ decision, the minister said that the Court's verdicts were final and binding for UN members, i.e for parties involved in the dispute.

Macedonia as arguments amongst other things will present all statements and texts published in the press that are deemed useful and valuable.

ICJ will deliberate the appeal after the second stage of the process of oral arguments is completed, i.e. after March 30. The verdict is expected to be reached prior to or after the summer holidays, in the fall at the latest. During this period, the Court will monitor actions taken by both countries, which is why a briefing was held recently with representatives of all relevant Macedonian political parties, who have confirmed that their actions will be rational and sensible.

The public hearing in the Hague-based court will be held between March 21-30. According to a schedule posted on its website, the hearing will consist two rounds. In the first round, Macedonia will present its oral arguments on March 21 and 22, while Greece will present its counter-arguments on March 24-25. In the second round of oral arguments, on March 28 the team representing Macedonia will have the chance to respond orally to Greece's defence. The public hearing will end on March 30, when Greece is to present its closing arguments.

Macedonia filed its application before the International Court of Justice against Greece in November 2008, which was followed by two detailed written memorandums from 20 July 2009 and 9 June 2010.

There can ONLY BE TWO REASONS why a "Macedonian" would post such topics and content on an MTO Forum - IGNORANCE (but not really a good excuse since a person joining any Usenet or Internet forum group should first acquaint themselves with their aims and objectives before posting or commenting there) or MALICE (political, national-chauvinist, racist or simplly Vassal!), which needs to be quickly addressed and/or forum "airtime" limited, IMHO!

"Mactruth", do you think it is SANE or PATRIOTIC for a Macedonian Governemt to be going to the ICJ to enforce the following conditions, excellently summed up by Vangelovski below?

Seeing as the letter of our amatuer Foreign Minister Milososki has recently come to light, it is perhaps timely to have a refresh on the Interim Accord for all the goldfish out there.

The full text of the Interim Accord (from the UN database) can be found here:

http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_1...3/00004456.pdf

Key Articles in the Interim Accord which Undermine Macedonian Sovereignty

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7); and

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11).

In addition, another article of interest is the following (I would not necessarily argue that this undermines Macedonian national sovereignty for the simple fact that the ICJ is a limitation on national sovereignty, it is nonetheless rather stupid):

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

[Rogi]

Indigen,

There is another reason why news articles can and should be posted - to provide information and updates.

If an opinion is not provided following the posting of the article, I don't think it is fair to assume 'ignorance' or 'malice' and ignore the pure and simple reason of posting articles with news/information/updates for the sake of informing others, regardless of the views we share on the content.

I think we would be doing ourselves a great disservice if we only post articles we agree with, in truth, there'd be almost no content on this forum if that were the case.

[indigen]

Indigen,

There is another reason why news articles can and should be posted - to provide information and updates.

I think we all know where to get news from and a forum is for DISCUSSION or comment on news and information but to simply spread VASSAL GOVERNMENT PROPAGANDA (IMO, the heading of this topic is PURE PROPAGANDA in and of itself and should have no place on MTO!) without any comment IS (to me) UNACCEPTABLE.

If an opinion is not provided following the posting of the article, I don't think it is fair to assume 'ignorance' or 'malice' and ignore the pure and simple reason of posting articles with news/information/updates for the sake of informing others, regardless of the views we share on the content.

If it is of a SIMILAR POLITICALLY SENSITIVE nature, as this topic/issue surely is (and should be!), then I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with you (any whoever else agreeing with your LIBERAL take on this subject).

I think we would be doing ourselves a great disservice if we only post articles we agree with, in truth, there'd be almost no content on this forum if that were the case.

That is not the issue here and whilst there might be less ""traffic" (in terms of posts) I think readership could be increased if there was more quality political discussion content and the spam vassal political "news" and propaganda was reduced.

Secondly, there is something else of an ethical (and legal!) nature that should concern every poster on any forum or discussion list - copyright. I too am no saint in these matters but I take a gamble when posting older articles of a political and patriotic nature that the owners of the copyrighted material will not pursue me because it is for the Macedonian Cause (but is always at the back of my mind) and always try to add "for fair use only" (which is not really valid) after each post. Best way to avoid any copyright dispute is to have fairly comprehensive comment on any posted article, which is allowed for and complies with copyright law.

[Vangelovski]

Something will happen, but we dont know...

This RAT was once called an "intellectual giant" by another RAT...this is his best analysis of the situation in regard to the Interim Accord. You need to replace the "we" with "I".